Hong Kong Airlines (HKA)
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You claimed people are being dumped from HKA. Such a statement should be backed by knowledge rather than "metaphor".
Seems more like you threw out some uninformed B.S. and are surprised that people called you on it.
Facts have a strange way of ruining forum agendas.
Hope you guys come out OK- even though you are systematically responsible for the halving of pilot conditions in Hong Kong. Some of my co-pilot's packages exceed your training captains. No use crying over spilt milk, these conditions are here to stay.
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Hong Kong is a small city, with a huge economy. It has one International Airport, and only a couple of local carriers. The locally based pilots who operate there have potentially enormous industrial clout. The effect of major concerted industrial action would be huge. I don't need to spell it out.
But for some strange reason the pilots of Hong Kong have always failed to capitalise on their vital role in the economy. Like it or not the CX guys have to carry the majority of the blame for that. They have progressively let things slip over decades.
The reason for their inaction is puzzling - the introduction of B Scale in '93 created internal divisions which weakened the unions, but it slid by effectively unopposed. Maybe the influx of demoralised Ansett refugees in 2001 further damaged the will to pursue industrial action, and the '49ers fiasco was a shame and a blight that will never be expunged.
The 'no right to strike' laws in Hong Kong have been repeatedly trotted out as an excuse for inaction, even in the face of strikes by Cabin Crew and other workers! Perhaps the Law is an ass!
The arrival of competitor airlines like HKA/HKE was a crucial moment for all pilots in Hong Kong, and the HKAOA should have been bending over backwards to recruit every new pilot who arrived on their shores. But only a half hearted attempt was made to do so, and the begrudgery and hostility of many CX pilots toward these new arrivals was counter productive to their own interests.
Imagine if the pilots of CX/HKA/HKE were truly united in a union that was willing to stand together and fight against CoS erosion! They'd have the power to literally shut Hong Kong down, if it had to come to that. Yet instead the in-fighting and back biting continues, to the benefit of airline management alone.
Will you lot ever cop yourselves on and realise who your enemy really is?
HKAOA, get off your arses and make some effort to support the guys in HKA/HKE who need your help. You'll be helping yourselves in the long run.
But for some strange reason the pilots of Hong Kong have always failed to capitalise on their vital role in the economy. Like it or not the CX guys have to carry the majority of the blame for that. They have progressively let things slip over decades.
The reason for their inaction is puzzling - the introduction of B Scale in '93 created internal divisions which weakened the unions, but it slid by effectively unopposed. Maybe the influx of demoralised Ansett refugees in 2001 further damaged the will to pursue industrial action, and the '49ers fiasco was a shame and a blight that will never be expunged.
The 'no right to strike' laws in Hong Kong have been repeatedly trotted out as an excuse for inaction, even in the face of strikes by Cabin Crew and other workers! Perhaps the Law is an ass!
The arrival of competitor airlines like HKA/HKE was a crucial moment for all pilots in Hong Kong, and the HKAOA should have been bending over backwards to recruit every new pilot who arrived on their shores. But only a half hearted attempt was made to do so, and the begrudgery and hostility of many CX pilots toward these new arrivals was counter productive to their own interests.
Imagine if the pilots of CX/HKA/HKE were truly united in a union that was willing to stand together and fight against CoS erosion! They'd have the power to literally shut Hong Kong down, if it had to come to that. Yet instead the in-fighting and back biting continues, to the benefit of airline management alone.
Will you lot ever cop yourselves on and realise who your enemy really is?
HKAOA, get off your arses and make some effort to support the guys in HKA/HKE who need your help. You'll be helping yourselves in the long run.
No hiding that CX conditions have historically been well above the industry average. But to place the blame for lowering conditions at the door of HKA/HKE is a bit rich. If your unions had even the slightest backbone you could/should have fought back internally rather than look to blame others and whinge about it on PPRuNe. Time to look in the mirror and pull your finger out....get your own house in order before spreading your CX toxicity this way.
Top HR executives curvetting about the HK Country Club have stated there is no reason to pay pilots high wages anymore. When I ask for a pay rise this year I will be told my competitors paid 50% + less than I am. I will fire back at my boss that the wage differential is even more dramatic at a managerial level but that's good for retort only. When you ask me to pull my finger out can I ask you how many wage increases have you won since arriving in HKG?
Some of the preceding posts of unions unifying pilots are warm and idealistic. They've missed the paradigm shift. To defend against globalisation and the dumping of low cost pilots and their driving down of conditions of service has no simple answers or solutions. I'd suggest the defence starts with professional standards. There's a stress to high standards that cheap pilots don't always like.
CX and KA have a contract offer now on par with a struggling HKA/ HKE. Coincidental? They are actually some way along in the ability to remove traditionally high standards out of their supply and demand equation. KA was a proving ground for cadet to captain in 5 years - there's not much left in the puzzle.
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No hiding that CX conditions have historically been well above the industry average. But to place the blame for lowering conditions at the door of HKA/HKE is a bit rich. If your unions had even the slightest backbone you could/should have fought back internally rather than look to blame others and whinge about it on PPRuNe. Time to look in the mirror and pull your finger out....get your own house in order before spreading your CX toxicity this way.
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if HKA has any standards problems they come primarily from the low standards in management.
The FOP management department is padded out with more than a few ‘seat warmers’ whose idea of high standards is in harassing and demeaning their pilots while continuously covering up their own manifest failings.
The FOP management department is padded out with more than a few ‘seat warmers’ whose idea of high standards is in harassing and demeaning their pilots while continuously covering up their own manifest failings.
Sorry but what the hell are you talking about? Surely you must be joking. Read again the above and try to keep a straight face. So your saying that high salary pilots = high standard pilots?! Ive never heard more tosh in all my life. You refer to those on lower conditions to your own as the great unwashed from the third world coming to erode your colonial anglo/strayan whitebread male dinosaur of an airline. You're clearly deluded and you're arrogance is frightening.
You seem angry. So let's work through it slowly.
I did not say high salary=high standard pilots. You said that. I said there's a stress to high standards that cheap pilots don't always like. I'll give you an example. Your airline has a lot more low cost pilots from low cost developing world carriers than KA and CX. Why? Racism? No, they'll take anyone from anywhere as contracts deteriorate.
Why wouldn't these pilots not have opted for higher paying jobs? I mean if you're going to bunk-bed it in Tung Chung, with other colleagues to send money back home, why not go for the incumbents paying near double? You've hit the nail on the head- the colonial check and training system is feared. That's my point about the defence against pilots willing to work for very little may be with high standards. You can disagree with this but I believe I've got another 5 years because of it and I wish standards could go much higher - for longer term protection.
The most important safety feature of any airline operation is a well-trained, highly experienced and qualified professional pilot. And the best way to attract and retain these pilots is to pay them competitive wages and offer a solid career progression.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 4th Jan 2019 at 08:42.
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Why wouldn't these pilots not have opted for higher paying jobs? I mean if you're going to bunk-bed it in Tung Chung, with other colleagues to send money back home, why not go for the incumbents paying near double?
you do know China had a block on Malaysian and South African passport holders back in 2015? So that point is moot.
suggest you slink away to the Cathay dragon threads
Perhaps you've drifted the topic to our north and China an interesting scenario. With a number of incidents culminating in the broken 737 at MNL, the CAAC is not only racially profiling pilot applications it wants 400 contract commands from certain nationalities gone evidently. I was unfairly abused above, as a deluded pilot, worried about masses of cheap and poorly trained pilots, threatening a suggested position of "white privilege" ( despite many non-whites being on a similar contract ) - but it seems the CAAC has institutionalised the accusation levelled at me of delusion and arrogance.
How can I slink away to Cathay threads only? This thread has desperate pleas for joint labour representation whilst my colleagues on threads below inform potential CX/KA new joiners their new contract is not sustainable? All the while HKE/ HKA have pilots on a similar lowly COS. From the outside you blokes have left a pile of rubble, a significantly lower benchmark contract for HKG pilots and proof it's sustainable and welcomed? Perhaps this is unfair and you are all fighting hard, constrained by circumstances, but make no mistake, we are intertwined, probably the victims of limited collusion between management who see pilots as commodities. But I will not slink away, as how quickly I can be replaced by cheaper pilots is undeniably a concern, and my company will see a failing HKA as a dispenser for D and E scale contracts in HKG.
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Gnadenburg, My response was to your comment about why didn’t those pilots go to the “incumbents” paying double.
When the exodus from Malaysia came in 2015 China did have a block on Malaysian passport holders due to a certain aircraft, still missing, that had a few chinese nationals onboard.
If you meant to come and join the local competition who pay double? for an experienced captain from a SE Asian low cost carrier or Malaysian airlines(not low cost btw)I don’t think they would want to join CX as an SO for a significantly lower salary than a DEC at HKA/HKE. Or join KA as an FO flying a clapped out 330 into nanjing or hangzhou to then upgrade on the A321 to go to jinan or ningbo.
The guys “bunk bedding” it ,as you put it ,share flats in Tung Chung/DB and are commuting as they are on a package that gives them 10 days at home in KL/MNL/ CGK/BKK and even as far as Joburg and London.
So your point is still moot as they are happier at HKA and not because there’re afraid of not meeting your “high standards” or fear of the “colonial check and training system”.
When the exodus from Malaysia came in 2015 China did have a block on Malaysian passport holders due to a certain aircraft, still missing, that had a few chinese nationals onboard.
If you meant to come and join the local competition who pay double? for an experienced captain from a SE Asian low cost carrier or Malaysian airlines(not low cost btw)I don’t think they would want to join CX as an SO for a significantly lower salary than a DEC at HKA/HKE. Or join KA as an FO flying a clapped out 330 into nanjing or hangzhou to then upgrade on the A321 to go to jinan or ningbo.
The guys “bunk bedding” it ,as you put it ,share flats in Tung Chung/DB and are commuting as they are on a package that gives them 10 days at home in KL/MNL/ CGK/BKK and even as far as Joburg and London.
So your point is still moot as they are happier at HKA and not because there’re afraid of not meeting your “high standards” or fear of the “colonial check and training system”.
Last edited by SW1; 5th Jan 2019 at 02:38.
Thanks for shining some light onto the demographics coming to HKG and clearing up your point. I was hounded above for suggesting what you've confirmed. Cheap pilots, in large numbers, whose package is insufficient to sustain a family in HKG and who are on a contractual (?) commuting package of 10 days- think I'd prefer month on month off on a clapped out 320/330 for the same $ though.
And without elaborating, I'd stand by the belief that regional low cost pilots are not going to be attracted in numbers to a rigid and demanding check and training system, until there is evidence of professional comfort and risk waning. Before any snide comments here, I'm of a belief you are only as good as your last flight, no legacy like elitism, and the colonial check and training system is flawed in many ways. In fact, if management could sort it out, the race to the bottom would be lead-sinker like !
And without elaborating, I'd stand by the belief that regional low cost pilots are not going to be attracted in numbers to a rigid and demanding check and training system, until there is evidence of professional comfort and risk waning. Before any snide comments here, I'm of a belief you are only as good as your last flight, no legacy like elitism, and the colonial check and training system is flawed in many ways. In fact, if management could sort it out, the race to the bottom would be lead-sinker like !
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There are 3 airlines I can think of that are in grave positions financially, and no doubt, once the free flow of cheap credit is curtailed, they will stumble into major losses, unable , despite high load factors, to sustain their burden of debt.
First it was WOW airlines in Iceland. Aircraft orders cancelled, routes reduced and contracts terminated.
Next , Norwegian. Another interest rate rise and their creditors will get the wobbles. Recruitment terminated, many B787 orders cancelled.
Finally, Hong Kong Airlines. All the signs are there . Mis management, overstretched resources, and a parent that no longer wants is baby. A330 orders cancelled, recruitment freeze and voluntary unpaid leave.
I would guess a sustained downturn in China, lasting into 2020 will have a significant effect on the economies of the HKA operation.
Not being able to plan more than a few months ahead, probably suits some pilots. Personally, I’m happy to be on the colonial side of the road , with a profitable future.
First it was WOW airlines in Iceland. Aircraft orders cancelled, routes reduced and contracts terminated.
Next , Norwegian. Another interest rate rise and their creditors will get the wobbles. Recruitment terminated, many B787 orders cancelled.
Finally, Hong Kong Airlines. All the signs are there . Mis management, overstretched resources, and a parent that no longer wants is baby. A330 orders cancelled, recruitment freeze and voluntary unpaid leave.
I would guess a sustained downturn in China, lasting into 2020 will have a significant effect on the economies of the HKA operation.
Not being able to plan more than a few months ahead, probably suits some pilots. Personally, I’m happy to be on the colonial side of the road , with a profitable future.
Last edited by TheGreenDragon; 7th Jan 2019 at 03:36.
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So HKA is going to sue people speculating on whether it will go bankrupt or not. But even if we do not talk about the specific question of bankruptcy, it is a legitimate question to ask about it's financial position. That is not suggesting it will go under, but simply clarification on it's status.
If you put yourself in the shoes of the flying public, you would want to know whether the airline you are flying on is on a sound financial position or not. HKA is doing itself no favors by making such threats, which will only bring increase speculation on itself. Instead, the airline should proactively release financial statements that will reassure the public.
If you put yourself in the shoes of the flying public, you would want to know whether the airline you are flying on is on a sound financial position or not. HKA is doing itself no favors by making such threats, which will only bring increase speculation on itself. Instead, the airline should proactively release financial statements that will reassure the public.
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I was having dinner tonight and the manager of the restaurant - local HK guy - knowing I'm a pilot, asked if buying tickets on HKA was a good idea. If people think an airline is in trouble and won't be around to fly them on their holiday, then they won't book flights and it becomes a self - fulfilling prophecy Regardless of the realities. HKA have to walk a fine line of selling confidence in their business without looking like they're trying too hard or bullsh**ing the public. Considering the top brass are jumping ship, finding the right front man might not be easy. Good luck to them.
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I was having dinner tonight and the manager of the restaurant - local HK guy - knowing I'm a pilot, asked if buying tickets on HKA was a good idea. If people think an airline is in trouble and won't be around to fly them on their holiday, then they won't book flights and it becomes a self - fulfilling prophecy Regardless of the realities. HKA have to walk a fine line of selling confidence in their business without looking like they're trying too hard or bullsh**ing the public. Considering the top brass are jumping ship, finding the right front man might not be easy. Good luck to them.
