HKPA
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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Don't let the managers make you believe they don't want a deal anymore.
They do!
Training ban is still hurting. We have more 350/777 coming. The 4 or 5 ***** who joined training won't change much.
Negotiation 101: don't show your cards. Of course they'll say there's no money anymore. They make it look like it's ops normal. It isn't. Training flights get cancelled, it still takes 6 months for a JFO upgrade.
Let's not accept any RP deal that does not meet our standards.
Chinebeached: I wish the icadets had followed your path and said NO when they had a choice. It would have helped everyone and firstly themselves.
I have far more respect for you than for the ones joining on a contract they know is ****e then complain about it a day into the job.
They do!
Training ban is still hurting. We have more 350/777 coming. The 4 or 5 ***** who joined training won't change much.
Negotiation 101: don't show your cards. Of course they'll say there's no money anymore. They make it look like it's ops normal. It isn't. Training flights get cancelled, it still takes 6 months for a JFO upgrade.
Let's not accept any RP deal that does not meet our standards.
Chinebeached: I wish the icadets had followed your path and said NO when they had a choice. It would have helped everyone and firstly themselves.
I have far more respect for you than for the ones joining on a contract they know is ****e then complain about it a day into the job.
Last edited by Zapp_Brannigan; 22nd Jan 2017 at 21:00.
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Zapp - thanks for the sentiments.
Warham's book goes into great detail about the negotiation process and the tactics required not to mention the preparation required to even be a negotiator. CX employee teams of specially qualified people to do this on their behalf so why should the AOA not do the same? I hope they do yet the outcomes seem to only go in 1 direction.
I wish you and your colleagues only the best of luck going forward: and you make your own luck in this world. As you can see on this forum though there are already too many who are still only concerned for their own self interests and don't believe in resisting what is not right in front of their noses. Warham wrote that the only way to protect your future is to safeguard the present. By letting C-Scale come in with little more than a pathetic whimper the AOA screwed the future due their incredibly self satisfying myopic view.
Warham's book goes into great detail about the negotiation process and the tactics required not to mention the preparation required to even be a negotiator. CX employee teams of specially qualified people to do this on their behalf so why should the AOA not do the same? I hope they do yet the outcomes seem to only go in 1 direction.
I wish you and your colleagues only the best of luck going forward: and you make your own luck in this world. As you can see on this forum though there are already too many who are still only concerned for their own self interests and don't believe in resisting what is not right in front of their noses. Warham wrote that the only way to protect your future is to safeguard the present. By letting C-Scale come in with little more than a pathetic whimper the AOA screwed the future due their incredibly self satisfying myopic view.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Too true Curtain. Another enduring farce hoisted upon us by the company. Well, the stalemate will continue. They are abjectly the most arrogant and bloody minded incompetents that this industry has ever seen. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
Join Date: Nov 2014
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We agreed to a COS containing a negotiated Rostering Practice with a 90-day out clause either side could exercise and with no stipulation of what might occur if one side opted out.
He smart are we? We may not like it or want it. But the Company did exactly what we agreed to - the opted out.
He smart are we? We may not like it or want it. But the Company did exactly what we agreed to - the opted out.
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Curtain Rod. You are correct. 47% of our membership are too ignorant or plain stupid to insist on an ironclad contract. We are also faced with a similar scenario regarding the seniority issue for the new CMP. There is only one system that is transparent and devoid of corruption, and that is the strict seniority system. My guess is the same members that can't see the sense in CC will also not realise the importance of establishing a strict seniority system regarding rostering. If you sell the long term benefits of this profession for short term gain, you will forever live within a career that is compromised and miserable.
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No, I think that, much as they sold short their original career terms for a short term gain, they will now also sell short their long term career gains that come with a proper seniority system. 
Join Date: Sep 2014
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Strict seniority for me, but when you consider other based guys or categories with no relative seniority movement and those that don't plan to stay, it may turn out a closer vote than we would like.
Anyhow, I think the rules coded in to the system are going to have a bigger impact over the course of a career. It has the potential to be very effective. But, that requires the system being allowed to work as designed. And more "orthodox" manning levels.
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What happens if the based guys end up negotiating something many times better than what we have right now? We going to stay mad at the Company and hate the based AOAs more than we already do? We going to pound our fists in the sand, since we are not sitting at a table to pound, and declare ourselves outraged that such injustices could be imposed upon us? What happens to CC, the TB, and sickness rates then? Surely CX is counting on this. No???
Join Date: May 2002
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Based guys also have a Collective Bargaining Agreement which is protected by law and includes the RP's. It can only be changed by negotiation and member vote. Bases are now also protected by law, meaning CX has to stop flying to those bases before they are able to close them. I do not think that "keeping their base" has any influence what the "based guys" have in mind while negotiating CMP, rather then what its unions memberships want to see in the new CMP. IMHO the HKAOA is disadvantaging itself, having decided not to participate in the CMP negotiations. The reality is that the the so called "based guys" will negotiate the new CMP/RP's as required by law and CX will amend the HK COS accordingly. I am sure everyone would prefer the HKAOA to participate in those CMP negotiations. Lets face it CC in Hong Kong did not achieve anything or very little, looking back the past years. Maybe its time for the HKAOA to re-evaluate their position, either escalate their industrial action or end CC. I believe with the current state of affairs time is not in favour of the HKAOA and its members, things might get worse before getting better and from a business point of view a fleet reduction rather then expansion is seen by many analysts as the only viable option. In case of a fleet reduction, Contract Compliance is absolute useless and protecting officers on the bottom of the seniority list will be hard for the HKAOA, if the relationship with management remains confrontational.
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First of all I am not blaming anyone. In regards of Manchester, the UK has no CBA. As far as I know only Australia, Canada and the USA have a CBA.
As far as the RP's go, I was under the impression that the CMP negotiations are actually all about negotiating a new set of RP's.
I am just saying that it might be advantageous for the HKAOA to be part of the CMP negotiations as the result will be a set of new RP's.
As far as the RP's go, I was under the impression that the CMP negotiations are actually all about negotiating a new set of RP's.
I am just saying that it might be advantageous for the HKAOA to be part of the CMP negotiations as the result will be a set of new RP's.
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GTC58- ill informed drivel
GTC58,
I assume you are not a member of the HKAOA or AOAE. If you are, you should be ashamed that you have allowed yourself to become so uninformed.
1. The EU based pilots have a fully enforceable employment contract which covers base closure and redundancy. In respect of these two issues, the COS is not hugely different to the AOAC, USAOA and AAOA contracts, which is not surprising given that we all share a common seniority list and PBPA.
2. The EU based pilots are covered by UK employment law, irrespective of what may be in their contracts the Company will have to comply with UK law. There is no point "willy waving" what may or may not be in US/Canadian law, these guys are UK based.
3. The CMP is about building a Roster System. This doesn't necessarily lead to new RPS for anyone. Changes to RPs will only be needed if the CMS conflicts with RPs. Take a moment to read RPs, no matter which base you are on, the RPs are pretty vague and should the company wish to, they can probably circumvent RPs. What they can't circumvent anywhere (HK included) are the pay provisions. If you really are in the HKAOA, read some of the excellent stuff being written by the Australian CMP reps.... Very illuminating for all !!
4. Local laws require the Canadians and Australians to engage in good faith talks. However, the Company has set the bar pretty low as to what ".good faith talks" look like. Rather than suggest AOAE and HKAOA raise the white flag, why not suggest the other 3 unions show a bit of pilot unity and show up to the talks with folded arms and just stare at the two empty seats marked AOAE and HKAOA!! I'll leave you to decide if any of these slogans are appropriate;
United we stand; divided we fall.
The Company can only divide us if we let them.
Turkeys voting for Xmas.
Every based pilot is just a base closure away from being HK based.
Every based FO is just a Command course away from being HK based.
There is more that binds Cathay pilots together than separates us.
Fraternally.....
I assume you are not a member of the HKAOA or AOAE. If you are, you should be ashamed that you have allowed yourself to become so uninformed.
1. The EU based pilots have a fully enforceable employment contract which covers base closure and redundancy. In respect of these two issues, the COS is not hugely different to the AOAC, USAOA and AAOA contracts, which is not surprising given that we all share a common seniority list and PBPA.
2. The EU based pilots are covered by UK employment law, irrespective of what may be in their contracts the Company will have to comply with UK law. There is no point "willy waving" what may or may not be in US/Canadian law, these guys are UK based.
3. The CMP is about building a Roster System. This doesn't necessarily lead to new RPS for anyone. Changes to RPs will only be needed if the CMS conflicts with RPs. Take a moment to read RPs, no matter which base you are on, the RPs are pretty vague and should the company wish to, they can probably circumvent RPs. What they can't circumvent anywhere (HK included) are the pay provisions. If you really are in the HKAOA, read some of the excellent stuff being written by the Australian CMP reps.... Very illuminating for all !!
4. Local laws require the Canadians and Australians to engage in good faith talks. However, the Company has set the bar pretty low as to what ".good faith talks" look like. Rather than suggest AOAE and HKAOA raise the white flag, why not suggest the other 3 unions show a bit of pilot unity and show up to the talks with folded arms and just stare at the two empty seats marked AOAE and HKAOA!! I'll leave you to decide if any of these slogans are appropriate;
United we stand; divided we fall.
The Company can only divide us if we let them.
Turkeys voting for Xmas.
Every based pilot is just a base closure away from being HK based.
Every based FO is just a Command course away from being HK based.
There is more that binds Cathay pilots together than separates us.
Fraternally.....
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Liam
What's with all this hostility. I just pointed out that the U.K. does not have a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. That's all. I never said your contract is not enforceable. I believe you still have COS08, while the other 3 basings areas negotiated and ratified a new CBA. I never implied anything else.
What's with all this hostility. I just pointed out that the U.K. does not have a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. That's all. I never said your contract is not enforceable. I believe you still have COS08, while the other 3 basings areas negotiated and ratified a new CBA. I never implied anything else.
