Typhoon Meranti
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I've been held down at FL236 (7,200m) flying up the coast of China through a typhoon. It was one of the smoothest flights I can ever recall doing.. not a ripple in the 'cruise' despite there being over 100kts of wind. At the destination one band of the typhoon was passing over with a spectacular thunderstorm so we just held for 20 mins until it blew away then there was no more than light turbulence and rain.
Or you could just do what our HKA and HKE "colleagues" were doing yesterday. And just fly right through obvious cells.
The newspapers today must be full of stories about terrified pax, injured cabin crew and bent aircraft from flying through all those nasty obvious cells.
Angol
You were the clown who posted that thread on D&G about the CNS 15 EO SID you guys use at Hong Kong airlines.
You gave me a lecture about SOPs. You come from the same circus that find it impossible to use the turning node on 15.
Now you are the clown asking a question is it possible for an aircraft to cruise in an area of high winds. Aircraft the world over do that every day.
You the same clown that asked about the forecast embedded CBs and turbulence. Every sigwx chart for Asia will have some on it every day.
We use the Wx radar to make taticical course changes to avoid it. If it gets bumpy we make sure everyone has a seatbelt on.
You were the clown who posted that thread on D&G about the CNS 15 EO SID you guys use at Hong Kong airlines.
You gave me a lecture about SOPs. You come from the same circus that find it impossible to use the turning node on 15.
Now you are the clown asking a question is it possible for an aircraft to cruise in an area of high winds. Aircraft the world over do that every day.
You the same clown that asked about the forecast embedded CBs and turbulence. Every sigwx chart for Asia will have some on it every day.
We use the Wx radar to make taticical course changes to avoid it. If it gets bumpy we make sure everyone has a seatbelt on.
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Well its obvious I posted this discussion in the wrong forum. It should have been posted in Tech Log, where a more sane level of exchange generally tends to occur.
I mistakenly posted it in FH thinking there was some expertise and (perhaps) wisdom on the subject from people flying in this region. Instead all I see is pathetic willy waving and puerile defensiveness.
Not one of you has backed up any of your arrogant proclamations with an ounce of evidence - a link, a reference, a scientific justification. In fact there's barely even any recognition that there's the remotest risk involved, or that there's any method to your madness.
It seems that the mere mention of CX in anything but reverential whispers brings on the red mist for most of you.
Your paranoia is sadly misplaced however, what you read as an insult to CX crews was nothing of the sort - it was a factual observation from the PIREPs posted on the day. The fact you took that to be insulting was your own insecurities showing through.
With all the disgust and dislike of your own company that you CX guys vent here every day it seems highly schizophrenic that you jump so fast to its defence at the merest hint of a slight - oooh, by an 'outsider' (circle the wagons!). Several of your colleagues have PM'd me to say they are embarrassed by your behaviour.
At the end of the day, my take on it is that you don't indeed know WHY or IF its safe to fly over any given typhoon. You have in reality simply been forced to do so because you were ordered to by your Flight Planners, and rather than stand up to them and demand a re-route, you followed orders from an office boy and drove your aircraft straight up the muzzle of the loaded gun. Maybe you got away with it by pure luck, and like to brag about it now. But it was really just luck, not skill. One day the luck always runs out.
I'm totally re-thinking my previous belief in the basic common sense of CX pilots.
I mistakenly posted it in FH thinking there was some expertise and (perhaps) wisdom on the subject from people flying in this region. Instead all I see is pathetic willy waving and puerile defensiveness.
Not one of you has backed up any of your arrogant proclamations with an ounce of evidence - a link, a reference, a scientific justification. In fact there's barely even any recognition that there's the remotest risk involved, or that there's any method to your madness.
It seems that the mere mention of CX in anything but reverential whispers brings on the red mist for most of you.
Your paranoia is sadly misplaced however, what you read as an insult to CX crews was nothing of the sort - it was a factual observation from the PIREPs posted on the day. The fact you took that to be insulting was your own insecurities showing through.
With all the disgust and dislike of your own company that you CX guys vent here every day it seems highly schizophrenic that you jump so fast to its defence at the merest hint of a slight - oooh, by an 'outsider' (circle the wagons!). Several of your colleagues have PM'd me to say they are embarrassed by your behaviour.
At the end of the day, my take on it is that you don't indeed know WHY or IF its safe to fly over any given typhoon. You have in reality simply been forced to do so because you were ordered to by your Flight Planners, and rather than stand up to them and demand a re-route, you followed orders from an office boy and drove your aircraft straight up the muzzle of the loaded gun. Maybe you got away with it by pure luck, and like to brag about it now. But it was really just luck, not skill. One day the luck always runs out.
I'm totally re-thinking my previous belief in the basic common sense of CX pilots.
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No algol. You have clearly some kind of aviation background and are trying to second guess lot of professionals about something you probably don't understand but you are so arrogant that you don't even like the few answers you got.
Algol: Your initial query was about transitting the eye of a typhoon at altitude. The ride can in fact be surprisingly smooth - by definition the eye is calm. I clearly recall one flight I did over the top of a typhoon where the radar return could have been in a text book yet the ride was smooth. In addition, in that part of the world the TAT below 20,000ft is in excess of +10C so icing is not a problem. All the typhoon issues are at low level with torrential rain bands and large wind shears - but that was not what you were enquiring about! As for your presumptions as to how CX crews are "ordered" to fly are fancifull and quite ludicrous.
Last edited by Meikleour; 16th Sep 2016 at 12:03. Reason: word inserted
Algol----I don't know who you are, you appear to be with HKA? Therefore I hope that you have some form of experience as a Pilot in Asia, how much experience I don't know but from you posts I feel not too much.
Mate, I flew to TPE the other day, as I said we managed somehow with the grace of god I guess !! to actually arrive in TPE without penetrating any bad weather, without picking up any ICE, without having to submit any PIREPS, without flying within 40 nm of any Red returns in the Radar, without anything more than light Turbulence
This we managed to do quite safely and easily, wow all this all using the systems my A330 has.
Yes I knew from pre flight planning the Typhoon was quite large, I knew it was close to my track, I carried enough fuel to have HKG +80 as an Alternate and was quite prepared to fly 200 nm off track if need be.
What else would you have us do?
Run away from all the weather in Asia? Have you ever flown through the ITCZ? Do you know what the ITCZ is?
stop being a dick.
Mate, I flew to TPE the other day, as I said we managed somehow with the grace of god I guess !! to actually arrive in TPE without penetrating any bad weather, without picking up any ICE, without having to submit any PIREPS, without flying within 40 nm of any Red returns in the Radar, without anything more than light Turbulence
This we managed to do quite safely and easily, wow all this all using the systems my A330 has.
Yes I knew from pre flight planning the Typhoon was quite large, I knew it was close to my track, I carried enough fuel to have HKG +80 as an Alternate and was quite prepared to fly 200 nm off track if need be.
What else would you have us do?
Run away from all the weather in Asia? Have you ever flown through the ITCZ? Do you know what the ITCZ is?
stop being a dick.
ACMS
The guy is a HK-based FS troll not HKA. Let him go to the tech forum.
Some of the folk have tried to answer his questions but he has chosen to ignore them.
No more oxygen required.
The guy is a HK-based FS troll not HKA. Let him go to the tech forum.
Some of the folk have tried to answer his questions but he has chosen to ignore them.
No more oxygen required.
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Algol,
We're not being arrogant. We're just telling you that flying through a typhoon at height isn't a big deal. It just isn't. It's a simple fact!
If you were asking about landing in typhoon conditions, you'd be getting very different answers as that is a very big deal!
I sense you have a bit of a problem with CX as none of the posts before are Willy-waving in the slightest. Get over it!
We're not being arrogant. We're just telling you that flying through a typhoon at height isn't a big deal. It just isn't. It's a simple fact!
If you were asking about landing in typhoon conditions, you'd be getting very different answers as that is a very big deal!
I sense you have a bit of a problem with CX as none of the posts before are Willy-waving in the slightest. Get over it!
Algol
This is dumbed down enough for even arts degree graduate to understand.
How DO planes fly in hurricanes but not thunderstorms? Computer simulation explains phenomenon - Mirror Online
This is dumbed down enough for even arts degree graduate to understand.
How DO planes fly in hurricanes but not thunderstorms? Computer simulation explains phenomenon - Mirror Online
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Algol started this thread with legitimate questions about flying in and around typhoons. Questions I myself had before operating in this region.
The point from all this is that no matter what is to be discussed there is a narcissistic attitude of self belief that comes from the CX guys, which offends them even to be asked a question, which might or might not question there decisions. I heard Agol and heard a good question. The CX guys heard a questioning of there descions and ability and went on the offensive.
Luckily this attitude is being weeded out with relentless CRM courses and eventually the SOs & JFOs at CX might eventually be allowed to ask these sort of questions with out fear, of ridicule.
The point from all this is that no matter what is to be discussed there is a narcissistic attitude of self belief that comes from the CX guys, which offends them even to be asked a question, which might or might not question there decisions. I heard Agol and heard a good question. The CX guys heard a questioning of there descions and ability and went on the offensive.
Luckily this attitude is being weeded out with relentless CRM courses and eventually the SOs & JFOs at CX might eventually be allowed to ask these sort of questions with out fear, of ridicule.
You back again, still with that chip on your shoulder too....
I'll spell it out to you once again so even a child could understand.
He came in here all guns blazing suggesting we were ignorant fools flying into Meranti placing ourselves, the cabin crew and pax in danger AND we didn't even once file a PIREP he thinks was necessary.
That kind of loaded question may just incite a response!!
Do you understand why we answered the way we did now?
Ok......now sod off
I'll spell it out to you once again so even a child could understand.
He came in here all guns blazing suggesting we were ignorant fools flying into Meranti placing ourselves, the cabin crew and pax in danger AND we didn't even once file a PIREP he thinks was necessary.
That kind of loaded question may just incite a response!!
Do you understand why we answered the way we did now?
Ok......now sod off
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"I'm not trying to get at you guys - I'd put my life in the hands of CX crews any day". AGOl quote.
Unfortunately ACMS I won't sod off. Reasonable question and train of thought, unreasonable response from Aholes like your self. It's the manner in which you approach matters that is most irritating, not the matter it's self.
Unfortunately ACMS I won't sod off. Reasonable question and train of thought, unreasonable response from Aholes like your self. It's the manner in which you approach matters that is most irritating, not the matter it's self.
Probably too much hot air.
It really comes down to:
Exposure - personally 30+ years flying above/around/through! Typhoons. Sometimes up to 3x in a day.
Risk management - knowing the potential threats and mitigating the them.
Disclaimer - I too am a CX pilot. We do not have a monopoly on common sense, nor are we infallible. However, typhoons pretty much come with the job.
It really comes down to:
Exposure - personally 30+ years flying above/around/through! Typhoons. Sometimes up to 3x in a day.
Risk management - knowing the potential threats and mitigating the them.
Disclaimer - I too am a CX pilot. We do not have a monopoly on common sense, nor are we infallible. However, typhoons pretty much come with the job.
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Meikeour - Algol: Your initial query was about transitting the eye of a typhoon at altitude. The ride can in fact be surprisingly smootH....All the typhoon issues are at low level with torrential rain bands and large wind shears - but that was not what you were enquiring about!
Orbital re-entry perhaps?
As for your presumptions as to how CX crews are "ordered" to fly are fancifull and quite ludicrous.
God forbid ANYONE would ever 'order' a CX pilot to do anything! You only ever do whatever pleases you, of course. The royal prerogative!
Seriously? Flying lessons from The Mirror? This gets more bizarre by the minute.
Hugo: We're not being arrogant we're just telling you that flying through a typhoon at height is not a big problem.'
OK, here's another question for you. You are flight planned to fly through a Typhoon, no big deal you say, plow on.
But there's a re-route option with clear air. Which path do you take?
You talk about 'mitigating risk' and 'using the radar etc' - so do you consider both those routings to be equally viable? If so - and you encounter something nasty, can you say you exercised appropriate risk mitigation? The answer is no, you didn't, just in case you still don't get it.
Ecam321, thanks for trying to talk them down off their high horses, but it's futile.
Last edited by Algol; 16th Sep 2016 at 16:04.
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SewerPipe
r you could just do what our HKA and HKE "colleagues" were doing yesterday. And just fly right through obvious cells.
r you could just do what our HKA and HKE "colleagues" were doing yesterday. And just fly right through obvious cells.
The CX flight coming behind me chose 20 LEFT. Probably looked the shorter route on his ND.
After a few minutes he came on again asking for another 10 left. The Taiwanese ATC'er refused the deviation because of the proximity to China airspace. They asked him to deviate right. But it was too late, no longer possible. So the CX hero had driven himself into a blind alley. His continued pleadings for a further 10 left were made in a very tremulous voice.
A good ships Captain may believe in his abilities, but he never loses respect for the sea.
Unfortunately too many pilots these days are far too complacent, and over confident in their (and their ships) abilities.
Last edited by Algol; 16th Sep 2016 at 16:10.
Algol: You seem to be suggesting that it is not possible to transit the outer bands of a typhoon using normal wx radar techniques then you go on to describe you doing exactly that on your flight to Taipei! Plenty of people have told you that overflying the eye of a typhoon can in fact be smooth but you seem to disbelieve them. Is your real gripe with CX crews that they haven't filed turb. reports like you think they should? Are you also claiming that the only aircraft to fly the route were CX ones at that time. Has it never occured to you that turbulence level reports are subjective. By the way, it is not arrogant to state how things are normally conducted in airline operations. Does your flight planning department "order you to fly specific routes" with no deviation. I suspect not.
As to my bono fides I have listed my HK licence number to give you a small hint at my own exposure to these conditions.
As to my bono fides I have listed my HK licence number to give you a small hint at my own exposure to these conditions.