Typhoon Meranti
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Typhoon Meranti
I have a question especially for the CX guys.
In the last couple of days a severe typhoon passed just south of Taiwan and across the Taiwan Straits into China.
It wreaked havoc in parts of Taiwan, and again in coastal south China. It is being reported as a record breaker, and certainly the strongest typhoon of 2016.
Fortunately for me I wasn't flying during it, but I did have a look at what was going on in the airspace around Taiwan during the height of the storm.
Here's an image I took of the weather radar returns shown on the Taiwan Government Met website;
As you can see the eye is centred right in the middle of the Strait at the time the image was taken. Effectively blocking the airways from HKG toward TPE and beyond. Deviating west of it into China airspace is of course impossible, and the weather to the east of the eye is even worse by the look of it (RCKH had 500M in heavy rain and gusts of 99kts).
The Sigmet Chart for Meranti shows 'embedded TS up to FL520'.
You don't overfly that.
I then took a look at the Flight Radar App.
Much to my amazement there was a pretty steady stream of aircraft passing straight up the Taiwan Strait, right into the storm. A majority of these aircraft were CX flights. Wow. I was really surprised.
I later got a hold of the PIREPs for the route over this period. There were 13 listed PIREPS from 0930Z on the 13th to 1210Z on the 14th with reports of MOD TURB, MOD ICING, and one SEV TURB report. The PIREPS came from EVA Air, United, China Airlines, FEDEX, AHK, JAL and the SEV TURB was reported by Air Busan. Not a pipsqueak from a CX flight.
Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these aircraft (including CX) flying through a tracked and mapped severe typhoon? What did they expect to happen? Do pilots in this region treat typhoons with disdain? Why fly into something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your aircraft and passengers (and - more so - the cabin crew)?
I keep reading how CX guys are p'd off with the company, and on a 'work to rule' at present. Does CX not have a rule forbidding flight into severe weather?
I'm not trying to get at you guys - I'd put my life in the hands of CX crews any day - but I'm just trying to get my head around this behaviour. Is it 'big brass balls syndrome' or what?
Why do it?
Will your employer back you up if things go pear shaped?
In the last couple of days a severe typhoon passed just south of Taiwan and across the Taiwan Straits into China.
It wreaked havoc in parts of Taiwan, and again in coastal south China. It is being reported as a record breaker, and certainly the strongest typhoon of 2016.
Fortunately for me I wasn't flying during it, but I did have a look at what was going on in the airspace around Taiwan during the height of the storm.
Here's an image I took of the weather radar returns shown on the Taiwan Government Met website;
As you can see the eye is centred right in the middle of the Strait at the time the image was taken. Effectively blocking the airways from HKG toward TPE and beyond. Deviating west of it into China airspace is of course impossible, and the weather to the east of the eye is even worse by the look of it (RCKH had 500M in heavy rain and gusts of 99kts).
The Sigmet Chart for Meranti shows 'embedded TS up to FL520'.
You don't overfly that.
I then took a look at the Flight Radar App.
Much to my amazement there was a pretty steady stream of aircraft passing straight up the Taiwan Strait, right into the storm. A majority of these aircraft were CX flights. Wow. I was really surprised.
I later got a hold of the PIREPs for the route over this period. There were 13 listed PIREPS from 0930Z on the 13th to 1210Z on the 14th with reports of MOD TURB, MOD ICING, and one SEV TURB report. The PIREPS came from EVA Air, United, China Airlines, FEDEX, AHK, JAL and the SEV TURB was reported by Air Busan. Not a pipsqueak from a CX flight.
Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these aircraft (including CX) flying through a tracked and mapped severe typhoon? What did they expect to happen? Do pilots in this region treat typhoons with disdain? Why fly into something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your aircraft and passengers (and - more so - the cabin crew)?
I keep reading how CX guys are p'd off with the company, and on a 'work to rule' at present. Does CX not have a rule forbidding flight into severe weather?
I'm not trying to get at you guys - I'd put my life in the hands of CX crews any day - but I'm just trying to get my head around this behaviour. Is it 'big brass balls syndrome' or what?
Why do it?
Will your employer back you up if things go pear shaped?
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I have a question, especially for the brain surgeons.
In the last couple of days my Dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.
It's wreaked havoc with his coordination, his ability to accomplish menial tasks such as eating, dressing and wiping his arse.
Fortunately for me I don't suffer from it yet, but I did have a look at what was going on, on YouTube and other such websites, showing the implant of electrodes for Deep Brain Stimulation.
Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these surgeons (including yourselves) hooking a cellphone battery into someones brain? What did they expect to happen? Do surgeons in this region treat the human brain with disdain? Why do something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your patient?
----
Kindly forgive the crude manner in which I've edited the OP's post. As I'm not a brain surgeon, will never be a brain surgeon and I sure as **** can't learn how to be a brain surgeon on YouTube.
No, I'm just a pilot. Wishing that people would let the professionals in their field, and that's *any* professional field, apply their training, qualifications and experience to their #@$%ing job without being second guessed/challenged by any wing nut with a smart phone and an internet connection.
In the last couple of days my Dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.
It's wreaked havoc with his coordination, his ability to accomplish menial tasks such as eating, dressing and wiping his arse.
Fortunately for me I don't suffer from it yet, but I did have a look at what was going on, on YouTube and other such websites, showing the implant of electrodes for Deep Brain Stimulation.
Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these surgeons (including yourselves) hooking a cellphone battery into someones brain? What did they expect to happen? Do surgeons in this region treat the human brain with disdain? Why do something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your patient?
----
Kindly forgive the crude manner in which I've edited the OP's post. As I'm not a brain surgeon, will never be a brain surgeon and I sure as **** can't learn how to be a brain surgeon on YouTube.
No, I'm just a pilot. Wishing that people would let the professionals in their field, and that's *any* professional field, apply their training, qualifications and experience to their #@$%ing job without being second guessed/challenged by any wing nut with a smart phone and an internet connection.
Hallelujah Mouse maid. Hallelujah.
I was airborne during yesterday's wx and landed in Taipei at the tail end of it's landfall. Non event really. Why ? Because we briefed accordingly, had even been trained appropriately, and got on with it. And didn't treat it with disdain. And the company gave us all the options wrt fuel. Hold for an hour, divert if need be back to HK.
Google experts. W@nkers. The same prats that instantly post on facetube, whatsyou, and fannygram the instant anything happens from the cabin without bothering to get the facts.
I was airborne during yesterday's wx and landed in Taipei at the tail end of it's landfall. Non event really. Why ? Because we briefed accordingly, had even been trained appropriately, and got on with it. And didn't treat it with disdain. And the company gave us all the options wrt fuel. Hold for an hour, divert if need be back to HK.
Google experts. W@nkers. The same prats that instantly post on facetube, whatsyou, and fannygram the instant anything happens from the cabin without bothering to get the facts.
It's called being a Pilot mate.
Yes I knew there was a typhoon located there, yes I fully briefed the cabin crew on the expected weather and how to deal with the cabin service they had planned, yes I informed the Pax it may be a little bumpy.
I'm sure you are aware that we have a very expensive weather radar in the nose of my multi million dollar Jet which I'm trained to use. There was only occasional light moderate turbulence on the airway to Taipei yesterday and it wasn't too bad. Certainly I didn't go anywhere near a CB or get any icing at all, in fact for a fair bit of the way we were not even in cloud at FL370.
We don't just blunder along with our eyes closed. Maybe CATHAY Aircraft used there training and experience to avoid the bad parts and therefore didn't need to submit any PIREPS about Turbulence or Severe Icing.
Do you think that this was the first Typhoon that CATHAY Pilots have ever seen or indeed flown over or around?
We don't just sit up there with out eyes closed hoping for the best .
Yes I knew there was a typhoon located there, yes I fully briefed the cabin crew on the expected weather and how to deal with the cabin service they had planned, yes I informed the Pax it may be a little bumpy.
I'm sure you are aware that we have a very expensive weather radar in the nose of my multi million dollar Jet which I'm trained to use. There was only occasional light moderate turbulence on the airway to Taipei yesterday and it wasn't too bad. Certainly I didn't go anywhere near a CB or get any icing at all, in fact for a fair bit of the way we were not even in cloud at FL370.
We don't just blunder along with our eyes closed. Maybe CATHAY Aircraft used there training and experience to avoid the bad parts and therefore didn't need to submit any PIREPS about Turbulence or Severe Icing.
Do you think that this was the first Typhoon that CATHAY Pilots have ever seen or indeed flown over or around?
We don't just sit up there with out eyes closed hoping for the best .
Last edited by ACMS; 16th Sep 2016 at 08:24.
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Typhoons are often surprisingly smooth to fly through at altitude.
Mind the increasing temps near the center with the decreased performance of the aircraft that accompanies.
Do be careful when landing or taking off in an area that's affected by a typhoon.
Take lots of gas and take few chances.
HKG pilots are pretty well accustomed to typhoons, don't worry.
Mind the increasing temps near the center with the decreased performance of the aircraft that accompanies.
Do be careful when landing or taking off in an area that's affected by a typhoon.
Take lots of gas and take few chances.
HKG pilots are pretty well accustomed to typhoons, don't worry.
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Oh FFS, haha! You CX guys are so damned thin skinned! Even just a query gets you right on the defensive. Should've known better than mention the dreaded CX even in a general way.
Don't like the idea of public scrutiny? Feel threatened by the Internet hoardes? Here's news for you - it's a fact of life. The public want to know.
How do you manage to live with the imposition of twice yearly Sim Checks? And those impudent Instructors questioning your every decision?!
Hey, if you want some 'privacy' maybe you're in the wrong business. Maybe you should indeed be doing brain surgery instead. Go for it!
Oasis, you made an attempt at a reasonable answer. Well done. However your response doesn't entirely satisfy. At planning stage, how do you know what any particular typhoon will be like? If the Sigmet says 'embedded CBs to FL520' what makes you so sure you can avoid them? WX radar, fine. But we're talking an area of potentially concentrated CBs which may be impossible to find a way through. Most OM-As tell us to avoid CBs by at least 20nm, and to completely circumnavigate areas of concentrated CB activity (like in a major typhoon), so what makes you so certain it's safe to launch into it?
Besides that, you mention rising temps - yes, which means lowering stall margins and quite possibly an ECAM message that you're above your max crz level and you must descend - into the clag. Most guidance tells us never to try to outclimb CBs, and only fly over one if able to clear it by several thousand feet. Are we to ignore these directions?
Worst of all is the real horror scenario of an eng fail or pressurisation loss while over the storm. Now you're going down into the thick of it - with a serious emergency already on your hands.
In my opinion it is reckless beyond justification to take a flight into this kind of environment, and it seems (from the comments above) that a certain cadre of twits are raring to do it based only on some gung-ho macho man assumptions.
Don't like the idea of public scrutiny? Feel threatened by the Internet hoardes? Here's news for you - it's a fact of life. The public want to know.
How do you manage to live with the imposition of twice yearly Sim Checks? And those impudent Instructors questioning your every decision?!
Hey, if you want some 'privacy' maybe you're in the wrong business. Maybe you should indeed be doing brain surgery instead. Go for it!
Oasis, you made an attempt at a reasonable answer. Well done. However your response doesn't entirely satisfy. At planning stage, how do you know what any particular typhoon will be like? If the Sigmet says 'embedded CBs to FL520' what makes you so sure you can avoid them? WX radar, fine. But we're talking an area of potentially concentrated CBs which may be impossible to find a way through. Most OM-As tell us to avoid CBs by at least 20nm, and to completely circumnavigate areas of concentrated CB activity (like in a major typhoon), so what makes you so certain it's safe to launch into it?
Besides that, you mention rising temps - yes, which means lowering stall margins and quite possibly an ECAM message that you're above your max crz level and you must descend - into the clag. Most guidance tells us never to try to outclimb CBs, and only fly over one if able to clear it by several thousand feet. Are we to ignore these directions?
Worst of all is the real horror scenario of an eng fail or pressurisation loss while over the storm. Now you're going down into the thick of it - with a serious emergency already on your hands.
In my opinion it is reckless beyond justification to take a flight into this kind of environment, and it seems (from the comments above) that a certain cadre of twits are raring to do it based only on some gung-ho macho man assumptions.
Algol - you've had your answer. If you don't accept what Oasis and ACMS said - who cares. We've been doing this , in this region, for a long time.
Now - learn some manners and respect and go away!
Now - learn some manners and respect and go away!
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I have been following the conversation and I could not stand it. As far as I read, Algol just posted a question about pilot reaction against a wx phenomena and also myself as a commercial pilot normally get irritated flying during a typhoon.
However, most of you guys did not even give a satisfactory answer to Algol and even insulted him. Hard to understand... Very unprofessional posts regarding the topic and nobody can insult to another like that...
Sorry to take your time arrogants...
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Algol
Flying from Hong Kong to Taipei, if the weather conditions became unsafe to proceed, can you think of one really simple way to avoid flying through a line of impenetrable CBs?
Flying in, and around a Typhoon, to a destination with a pretty benign TAF is no big deal.
Hugo.
Flying from Hong Kong to Taipei, if the weather conditions became unsafe to proceed, can you think of one really simple way to avoid flying through a line of impenetrable CBs?
Flying in, and around a Typhoon, to a destination with a pretty benign TAF is no big deal.
Hugo.
Or you could just do what our HKA and HKE "colleagues" were doing yesterday. And just fly right through obvious cells.
Not a question of arrogance, nor hubris. The original poster implied we plough on regardless. We don't. Not saying we're infallible. We're not. However proper training and exposure go a long way to alleviating the risk.
And is you have the misfortune to deprex or engine failure in to one, then it really isn't your day, is it. ?
Not a question of arrogance, nor hubris. The original poster implied we plough on regardless. We don't. Not saying we're infallible. We're not. However proper training and exposure go a long way to alleviating the risk.
And is you have the misfortune to deprex or engine failure in to one, then it really isn't your day, is it. ?
Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these aircraft (including CX) flying through a tracked and mapped severe typhoon? What did they expect to happen? Do pilots in this region treat typhoons with disdain? Why fly into something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your aircraft and passengers (and - more so - the cabin crew)?
In 20+ years of flying in this region, I am yet to see a typhoon that could not be safely traversed at higher levels. The forecasts always look dire, but most of the seriously bad weather is concentrated in the lower parts of the storm. We don't see long, impenetrable lines of Cbs in these storms. The weather radar does a good job of showing the areas that should be avoided and it is normally quite easy to find a way through. Sometimes it's even quite smooth! The biggest problem is caused by the increase in temperature near the centre of the storm. I certainly wouldn't want to be flying near rec max, for the reasons stated in previous posts. That said, even lower levels around FL310-ish don't normally present a problem wrt the weather.
I can assure you we don't take undue risks and we certainly don't treat these things with disdain.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 16th Sep 2016 at 00:57.
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As for engine failure - it is about balance of risk. Another time that an engine failure puts you in deep deep doo doo is on take-off. But rather than deciding each and every take-off is reckless, and deciding to cancel the flight, pilots tend to train for it, and review what they will do in the (rare) event of an engine out.
Maybe that is macho and reckless, but without it, you are taking the boat. (and a boat into a typhoon has a much worse time of it - they don't have the speed to react and get out of the way if need be)
Maybe that is macho and reckless, but without it, you are taking the boat. (and a boat into a typhoon has a much worse time of it - they don't have the speed to react and get out of the way if need be)
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Is it arrogance or is it just accepting that weather is part and parcel of our job and you make sensible decisions with the cards you are dealt on the day. Maybe I've been lucky but I've flown regionally for almost two decades and never got close to severe turbulence or moderate icing or had windshear that has done anything more than trigger a monitor radar display! Sure, some challenging approaches but when sensibly handled, nothing to write home about. All a bit dull and boring really, just as it should be.
Don't confuse arrogance with a deep rooted respect for Mother Nature and many of us being a product of training machines that taught us how to make good sensible decisions and have the courage to follow through with them.
Don't confuse arrogance with a deep rooted respect for Mother Nature and many of us being a product of training machines that taught us how to make good sensible decisions and have the courage to follow through with them.
SUNDOWN::----We've all answered his question more than adequately on how we deal with this kind of weather. He came in here all guns blazing with a childish post saying that Cathay Aircraft blundered right through the middle of a super Typhoon and then we had the stupidity not to file PIREPS after we most certainly had the crap beaten out of us and our poor unsuspecting passengers,and cabin crew. Really??
This kind of weather is our bread and butter, if we can't understand how to cope with it then we'd better not fly anywhere near Asia.
It does not present any particular problem if dealt with professionally. Which we all did on the day as did countless other Airlines.
ALGOL:---- mate really? You were there on the day were you? You're an expert in flying around Asia in all kinds of weather in an A330 or 777 are you?
Look at the radar picture posted above and you'll clearly see the en route weather didn't present any problems at all. If it did present a big problem then what's to stop you from doing a 180 and going home? Nothing.
Please stick to Flight Sim buddy........because I seriously doubt you've ever been in command of anything bigger than a C-152....
Now can we stop the b.s.
CRWKUNT ROLL:---nice photo of the weather, we went through about an hour later and it was the same, diverted only 15 nm left.....
This kind of weather is our bread and butter, if we can't understand how to cope with it then we'd better not fly anywhere near Asia.
It does not present any particular problem if dealt with professionally. Which we all did on the day as did countless other Airlines.
ALGOL:---- mate really? You were there on the day were you? You're an expert in flying around Asia in all kinds of weather in an A330 or 777 are you?
Look at the radar picture posted above and you'll clearly see the en route weather didn't present any problems at all. If it did present a big problem then what's to stop you from doing a 180 and going home? Nothing.
Please stick to Flight Sim buddy........because I seriously doubt you've ever been in command of anything bigger than a C-152....
Now can we stop the b.s.
CRWKUNT ROLL:---nice photo of the weather, we went through about an hour later and it was the same, diverted only 15 nm left.....
Last edited by ACMS; 16th Sep 2016 at 05:24.
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The arrogant and self righteous attitude that comes from some of you CX guys is astounding. Sitting next to you guys on the bus is hard enough, let alone hours on a flight deck listening to how amazing you are and how no one else knows what they're doing. Gods gift to aviation, bless you all.
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I flew over it twice. Wasn't too bad. There was a bit of weather at altitude but it tended to be in bands that could be easily avoided. I belted everyone up but the turbulence was light. To be honest I have found most typhoons are fine at altitude ( wholly different beast at lower levels). I find running into the thick continuous line of huge CBs of the ITCZ much more daunting. The ITCZ gets treated with the utmost respect.