Now Dragonair Direct entry FO.
Are all the daytime slots full?
I was hearing six more A330s recently so that would require a significant number of crew. So do they "promote" across from the A320 and back fill?
I was hearing six more A330s recently so that would require a significant number of crew. So do they "promote" across from the A320 and back fill?
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Yes, five x 330. At six crew per jet that is 60 more pilots required minimum and therefore at least 40-50 commands as already short. You will not be offered definite 320 or 330 position as vacancies have to be advertised internally to 320 FOs. You will be slotted onto a course according to company requirements when you turn up to start work.
Progression to command will be onto the 320. Latest new commanders on 320 have only been in the company 18 months. 330 CN, 11 years. Currently no DEC. Yet!
Progression to command will be onto the 320. Latest new commanders on 320 have only been in the company 18 months. 330 CN, 11 years. Currently no DEC. Yet!
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Icarus
What rock have you been hiding under ? Dragonair has been around for over 30 years. You are about 8 years late ... That is when the decent contract ended. But go ahead and apply.
To answer your question. You could get employed on either fleet as an FO. If you were to start as an FO on the A330 you would have to go to the A320 for Command.
If you have the required experience you could get promoted in 12 - 15 months. It would be best to get assigned the A320 if you have over 5000 hours and have previous Jet Command.
What rock have you been hiding under ? Dragonair has been around for over 30 years. You are about 8 years late ... That is when the decent contract ended. But go ahead and apply.
To answer your question. You could get employed on either fleet as an FO. If you were to start as an FO on the A330 you would have to go to the A320 for Command.
If you have the required experience you could get promoted in 12 - 15 months. It would be best to get assigned the A320 if you have over 5000 hours and have previous Jet Command.
Muff Monster, how does asking about DE FO numbers for more A330s indicate I have been hiding under a rock? Never mind don't answer, you must be a bundle of laughs to be locked in a flight deck with.
Thanks Dragon Pacific for the info, sixty more crew is significant given the balance of the package on offer, Cathay recruitment and the other options currently being offered.
Thanks Dragon Pacific for the info, sixty more crew is significant given the balance of the package on offer, Cathay recruitment and the other options currently being offered.
Icarus, if you have a half decent job in Oz, and you or your family don't like breathing in heavy metals (no, not listening to megadeath), don't do it
I can't speak for Dragonair but you would be looking at 15 years plus to command in CX due to over a thousand pilots ahead of you and other factors. Thousands ahead of you if they offer any new crew base slots (which they haven't for a long time).
Just do your due diligence on cost of living and quality of life in HKG on the package you would be offered. Your 737 may not be a shiny widebody but where you are may not be that bad after all.
Just do your due diligence on cost of living and quality of life in HKG on the package you would be offered. Your 737 may not be a shiny widebody but where you are may not be that bad after all.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 9th Oct 2016 at 08:30.
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Atlas
I don't think you can get a balanced opinion on prune. CX pilots are in the middle of a protracted industrial tussle. The more pilots that arrive on the package on offer the weaker the argument is for the need for improvement. So don't expect anyone to talk about CX in glowing terms.
As far as Dragonair goes I can give you the run down. Disclaimer. The package on offer now is different to the one I'm employed on, ( I'm on an expat contract). Anti discrimination laws in Hong Kong now mean only a standard contract can be offered for all employees whether expat or local. The standard contract on offer now is inferior to the expat contract in the two critical areas of housing and child education.
Advantages
Expanding. ( time to command around 2 years) Company needs captains so is changing the command course to achieve a higher pass rate. 5 aircraft confirmed coming next year and a further 5 rumoured.
Leave system. 40 days leave but combined with guaranteed days off gives you 10 weeks leave in defined blocks. Works very well. CX has a ****e system where drivers are struggling to get leave allocated. KA's is brilliant.
No Bond. Type ratings are free. If you don't like it you can move on.
Smaller so everyone tends to know everyone.
Lifestyle roster requests. Earlies, lates, weekends off, max night stops
Fleet swap. 2 years frozen on fleet only.
Reasonably stable roster ( at this point in time. Can be highly unstable at other times)
Part time option. Month on, month off. Slots for this are as rare as chickens lips but it's awesome if you can get on it. Only for very senior guys at the moment.
Hong Kong. Probably one of the easiest places to be an expat. English mostly spoken, plenty of good bars, restaurants, sporting clubs, sailing, beaches etc, plus easy access to nice places in Asia and direct flights worldwide.
Disadvantages
Hong Kong is hugely expensive. If you are single or a couple with no kids then you will be ok ( ish) depending where and what you are prepared to live in. Throw a couple of kids into the mix and life gets more difficult. Housing and schooling are prohibitively expensive. KA offers schooling and housing ( special) allowance but these will only partially offset the costs. Research the costs of renting, schooling and school debentures before you come, otherwise it could be a nasty shock. Purchasing a property is pretty much out of the question in the short term unless you arrive cashed up. Prepare for a lot of your "bigger " wage to be gobbled up in rent and school fees.
Commuting??? Only for the desperate or brave. Short haul rosters aren't suited for commuting and will take a mental and physical toll on you. A couple of guys have their family in Phuket. This seems the least stressful of the commuting options.
Command course. ( see above). Very little training. You are given a 3 month long check ride. Very high failure rates. In recent times this has stunted the growth of the airline due to lack of commanders and an unwillingness of suitable FOs bid for command.
China flying. Not hard, just frustrating. China does it's best to take the enjoyment out of flying. Luckily the non Chinese destinations are on the rise.
Pollution. It's a constant in HK and China. You need the 10 weeks leave to get some clean air.
KA is fully owned by CX. This could be good or bad. For the first 8 years of CX ownership I'm pretty sure they didn't have a plan for us, or even knew we existed. KA stagnated. Only in the last 18 months has there been real expansion. Possibly there is a long term plan but if there is then CX are keeping it to themselves. Generally it appears that decisions regarding KA are last minute an opportunistic rather than planned. To highlight this KA have had no ( none, zip, zilch) new aircraft orders for several years now. The 320s are some of the oldest flying and the 330s are CX handmedowns. CXs industrial situation has required them to utilise KA. I don't think this was a long term plan but a convenient last minute solution. This sort of thinking could be detrimental if you are planning a career here. A change of heart by CX management could see growth and commands come to a rapid grinding halt.
Weigh things up. Hope it helps
I don't think you can get a balanced opinion on prune. CX pilots are in the middle of a protracted industrial tussle. The more pilots that arrive on the package on offer the weaker the argument is for the need for improvement. So don't expect anyone to talk about CX in glowing terms.
As far as Dragonair goes I can give you the run down. Disclaimer. The package on offer now is different to the one I'm employed on, ( I'm on an expat contract). Anti discrimination laws in Hong Kong now mean only a standard contract can be offered for all employees whether expat or local. The standard contract on offer now is inferior to the expat contract in the two critical areas of housing and child education.
Advantages
Expanding. ( time to command around 2 years) Company needs captains so is changing the command course to achieve a higher pass rate. 5 aircraft confirmed coming next year and a further 5 rumoured.
Leave system. 40 days leave but combined with guaranteed days off gives you 10 weeks leave in defined blocks. Works very well. CX has a ****e system where drivers are struggling to get leave allocated. KA's is brilliant.
No Bond. Type ratings are free. If you don't like it you can move on.
Smaller so everyone tends to know everyone.
Lifestyle roster requests. Earlies, lates, weekends off, max night stops
Fleet swap. 2 years frozen on fleet only.
Reasonably stable roster ( at this point in time. Can be highly unstable at other times)
Part time option. Month on, month off. Slots for this are as rare as chickens lips but it's awesome if you can get on it. Only for very senior guys at the moment.
Hong Kong. Probably one of the easiest places to be an expat. English mostly spoken, plenty of good bars, restaurants, sporting clubs, sailing, beaches etc, plus easy access to nice places in Asia and direct flights worldwide.
Disadvantages
Hong Kong is hugely expensive. If you are single or a couple with no kids then you will be ok ( ish) depending where and what you are prepared to live in. Throw a couple of kids into the mix and life gets more difficult. Housing and schooling are prohibitively expensive. KA offers schooling and housing ( special) allowance but these will only partially offset the costs. Research the costs of renting, schooling and school debentures before you come, otherwise it could be a nasty shock. Purchasing a property is pretty much out of the question in the short term unless you arrive cashed up. Prepare for a lot of your "bigger " wage to be gobbled up in rent and school fees.
Commuting??? Only for the desperate or brave. Short haul rosters aren't suited for commuting and will take a mental and physical toll on you. A couple of guys have their family in Phuket. This seems the least stressful of the commuting options.
Command course. ( see above). Very little training. You are given a 3 month long check ride. Very high failure rates. In recent times this has stunted the growth of the airline due to lack of commanders and an unwillingness of suitable FOs bid for command.
China flying. Not hard, just frustrating. China does it's best to take the enjoyment out of flying. Luckily the non Chinese destinations are on the rise.
Pollution. It's a constant in HK and China. You need the 10 weeks leave to get some clean air.
KA is fully owned by CX. This could be good or bad. For the first 8 years of CX ownership I'm pretty sure they didn't have a plan for us, or even knew we existed. KA stagnated. Only in the last 18 months has there been real expansion. Possibly there is a long term plan but if there is then CX are keeping it to themselves. Generally it appears that decisions regarding KA are last minute an opportunistic rather than planned. To highlight this KA have had no ( none, zip, zilch) new aircraft orders for several years now. The 320s are some of the oldest flying and the 330s are CX handmedowns. CXs industrial situation has required them to utilise KA. I don't think this was a long term plan but a convenient last minute solution. This sort of thinking could be detrimental if you are planning a career here. A change of heart by CX management could see growth and commands come to a rapid grinding halt.
Weigh things up. Hope it helps
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payscales
Hi, are the numbers provided on pilotjobnetworks regarding salaries and allowances correct ?
They mention payscales of about 110 to 120000 HKD montly for FO's ? (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Dragonair)
Is this correct ?
Thanks in advance.
They mention payscales of about 110 to 120000 HKD montly for FO's ? (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Dragonair)
Is this correct ?
Thanks in advance.
atlas, the thorough post by giggerty is particularly succinct and pertinent. As jobs go, KA isn't as bad as some and Hong Kong can be fun but the pollution is more often than not bad enough to make you really wonder if it's all worth it. For those on the older expat package the housing allowance can allow you to accelerate your wealth accumulation sufficiently to say yes to the pollution equation but the new package will only allow you to tread water financially if you wish to (need to) live a normal life up here. If someone doesn't have work then it's hard to say don't take KA but my guess is that applicants that propose to leave a job in their home country for KA will more than likely have regrets on the current package.
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I'd say 110K is about right first year. Remember that this is before the 15 percent tax bill.
That would equate to about 95K net all included. The first tax bill is a winner because you have to pay tax over what you have earnt in the past year and are projected to earn in the subsequent year. So first year it's good to save that 30 percent.
You'll get it back eventually but keep it in mind.
That would equate to about 95K net all included. The first tax bill is a winner because you have to pay tax over what you have earnt in the past year and are projected to earn in the subsequent year. So first year it's good to save that 30 percent.
You'll get it back eventually but keep it in mind.
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Volare,
It depends what you want to achieve. If you're planning on being in HKG for a good while: Dragonair, no question. For reasons of money, lifestyle and honouring the contract.
If you want to do 3 years and go, HKE/HKA may be the better option.
It depends what you want to achieve. If you're planning on being in HKG for a good while: Dragonair, no question. For reasons of money, lifestyle and honouring the contract.
If you want to do 3 years and go, HKE/HKA may be the better option.
It was said, though Im not sure if true, that at a recent roadshow, HKA were promoting a 100% command pass rate versus, the at the time , 100% failure rate at KA.
Now things will have to improve at KA or heads will roll. KA has the most elaborate command course I know of and should have high success ( I won't go into the failings ). But food for thought for many. Stress free command ? Or post traumatic stress disorders?
Now things will have to improve at KA or heads will roll. KA has the most elaborate command course I know of and should have high success ( I won't go into the failings ). But food for thought for many. Stress free command ? Or post traumatic stress disorders?
Training Department
Nothing has changed here for 20 years.
You would think that 3 passes out of 19 would be enough for a little soul searching.
Considering all applicants are vetted at initial interview and assessed in the sim. If successful then go through lots of ground training, base and line training, six monthly loft and base checks along the way with plenty of opportunity to correct any shortcomings until eventually the candidate comes up for "pre command training" where trainers assess the candidate is ready for command.
Having agreed the candidate is ready for command and then subsequently fails the course has to be indicative of a failure of the system, the interviewers but mostly the training. You would think that they would look to themselves to find the problem, but no, it couldn't be them
You would think that 3 passes out of 19 would be enough for a little soul searching.
Considering all applicants are vetted at initial interview and assessed in the sim. If successful then go through lots of ground training, base and line training, six monthly loft and base checks along the way with plenty of opportunity to correct any shortcomings until eventually the candidate comes up for "pre command training" where trainers assess the candidate is ready for command.
Having agreed the candidate is ready for command and then subsequently fails the course has to be indicative of a failure of the system, the interviewers but mostly the training. You would think that they would look to themselves to find the problem, but no, it couldn't be them
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Independent schools like the Australian school can be $195,000 for yr 12. Most pilots are out of pocket between $7000-10,000 per child per month depending on the school.