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May 31st

Old 4th Jun 2016, 15:44
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly. Besides, they already have 92hrs. In fact, there is no limit to the amount of credit hours they fly you every month. No need to change the threshold.
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Old 4th Jun 2016, 15:59
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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76, 84, 88, 92... None of them will mean anything once we go hourly on the CMP!

Whatever number is settled upon, it will be temporary. After CMP, the only number that matters is the min guarantee. Even that number is less important than the trip rigs which produce credit hours across different time, duty, and flight time.

Sorry to pinprick your CX bubble! The rest of the industry operates very differently.
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Old 4th Jun 2016, 20:56
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Cxorcist, you are correct, the rest of the airline industry does work very differently. For instance:

proper work rules (RP's)
proper language in contracts
fair profit sharing
proper equipment transfer rules
proper rest requirements (no split duties)
etc, etc

Anyone else wish to add to the list?
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 01:46
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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That is so yester-decade thinking CR. So you're happy with 84 hours and a set salary pay whether you work 14 days or 20 days? Remember, the reason many work 20 days is it doesn't cost CX anything having guys sit in a hotel downroute on unofficial reserve!

cxorcist is bang on!
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 11:10
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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They work 20 days, but only 50 hours, and get paid for (almost) 84.

There are just as many ways to get screwed on any other system as there are on ours.

The devil you know...
Wouldn't and couldn't happen with adequate trip rigs in place. If you want to move towards first world rostering and working rules, be willing to think differently.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 13:00
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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CR, what you're missing is with an hourly rate on the CMP that roster with 20 work days would be worth the equivalent of way more than 84 hours today.

Bottomline, if I'm getting paid 84 hours I don't want days full of zero pay EXB's, free Reserves or 50% PT?PX's. 20 days IS NOT sustainable month after month even at (slightly less than) 84 hours of pay. Instead, work me hard and send me home or pay me overtime!

84 hours and a set salary MUST GO! If not, nothing will change including our high sickness rates.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 15:33
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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CPdude is 100% correct, especially wrt sickness rates.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 15:38
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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CR,

Without trip rigs, CMP does not work full stop. Might as well go right back to CC and the training ban. The software is designed to work efficient solutions in concert with (around!) proper trip rigs. Without those, an hourly system fails miserably. You think the industrial strife is bad now, just wait until we are on an hourly system without trip rigs. There would be resignations en masse.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 16:15
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Duty rigs, trip rigs, and owned rosters are all an essential part of a CMP (or whatever you want to call it). The key is in getting the ground rules straight.

This can work quite well for everyone--as well as encourage efficiency and productivity if it's done right.

AND if we ever see it ...
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 19:26
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Oh we will see it in the not too distant future as the Company can't afford to operate without it. What will be a tough negotiating session will be the agreement of the final numbers like the hourly rates, minimum guarantee among others.

Just take a look at Optimization alone. The efficiencies are amazing and after implementation, the Company will be shaking their heads (privately) asking why they didn't do this years ago.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 19:44
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Careful with the Trip Rigs

There's been some discussion about trip rigs, duty rigs, free reserve, min guarantee, CMP coming. I think it's important to understand again in light of this that there really are two different companies we work for, either AB or BO. Two completely different types of flying will make it challenging to have in place a system that provides efficiency for both fleets.

Having worked in the US, under the system that appears to be coming, a line bid system that is bid for, understanding how our trip and duty rigs were calculated, knowing how our lines were built, may I humbly say that I don't think our membership has the foresight to prevent a massive slaughtering when the time comes for negotiations for the RP's under the CMP. If you think you're in a place now where you work lot's for little credit, wait till you see how much smoke and how many mirrors are involved with this system of rigs. It's absolutely incredible. Our credit was based off of the higher of either 25% Time Away Base, 50% of Duty, or Block or better. Our lines were ALWAYS based off of TAFB. We had on average trips that were in the 90 hours TAFB with 18-20 credit hours. There were 25 or 30 reserve lines for a group of 110 pilots, we were paid 2.86 hours credit for 10 hours of reserve. You should be paid 10 hours of credit for 10 hours of sitting around, but that will NEVER happen. You think you're doing free reserve now, wait till you do it 5 or 6 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year. Think about it, the company looks at that and says, well, they're on the clock but we're only paying them for 25% of the time, how awesome is that for them? It's a unit cost, and that's the cheapest. You want rigs, you will get hosed. Unless, our membership is ready to "go to the mattress" which they're not. The only rig for TAFB that prevents sitting around is a 3 to 1 rig, and that's not going to happen. Not only will you lose a min guarantee for the month, but you will see yourself gone longer for less pay. And if you think CX is crewed up enough now or ever will be crewed up to be able to have a flexible system of dropping trips or moving them around, you're in la la land. It all hinges on having enough pilots. Wonder why they're saying implementation is 3 years away? It's a pipe dream folks. It's too complex for any GC to manage, any pilot group to manage. I say hang on to the 84 hours. Simple is better.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 21:56
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure what crap regional you worked for plainpilot, but let's not set the bar too low please. We are an international legacy carrier and deserve to be compensated as such.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 23:35
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cxorcist
Not sure what crap regional you worked for plainpilot, but let's not set the bar too low please. We are an international legacy carrier and deserve to be compensated as such.
It took years of learning from mistakes in contract after contract to get the US carriers to the place they are today, and if you think that the first time implementing this type of system will place you ahead, you are sadly mistaken.

Let's just say CX are foaming at the mouth to have you all stumble down this path. It will be a slaughtering.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 00:47
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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I see how you might think that, but I'm fairly certain that less money for the same amount of time away from home won't generate a positive industrial situation. Similarly, the same money for more time away will not be a good situation for CX.

No need to reinvent the wheel here. The groundwork has already been laid. We aren't starting from square one. We know what is in other major carriers contracts, and we won't be agreeing to regional airline terms, obviously.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 01:40
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Well, the alternative is to say no and stick with the current terms. Think they'll want that after buying the CMP???
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 02:07
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Curtain, you may well be right, but why on earth would you publicly sound so absolutist defeatist ? The industry is changing, the expectations are changing. We are now settled into a long, drawn out campaign that IS having an effect. We need to all be committed, resolved and determined to see this to a successful outcome. Surely posts like yours only accomplish two things: 1) give the management encouragement to resist any call for change, and 2) help discourage the weaker and wavering amongst us. Let's draw the line against any further compromise and concession. It's gone on too long now, over 20 years...and it is now time to see this through to the end, no matter what that may be. For most of us, at least seeing there is no hope of a good outcome is a positive, as it will drive most of us to seek better careers elswhere. Either outcome to me is acceptable, just don't aid and abet the enemy. I choose to show the company that there is no room for anything other than a first world contract. Anything less means continued CC, and probably early retirement. No matter what, the company will not succeed in seeing me personally accepting continuing with a substandard contract.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 02:24
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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What Trafalgar said.
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Old 6th Jun 2016, 03:48
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Fair enough....and thanks for clarifying. Cheers.
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Old 7th Jun 2016, 00:14
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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I understand, but in recent history the AOA doesn't have that great of a track record dealing severely, quickly, and forcefully in the face of completely negligent behavior that the company has shown. When RP's were cancelled, there should have been more done. What happened when this AMP program came about? Nothing. These two changes in very recent history has shown sadly, that our pilots could care less, and has given willingness to continue this type of behavior to the company. All I'm saying, is that I don't think our membership is ready to look seriously at the type of changes coming and have the foresight to ask the right questions, get serious about the language, and do it right. It's not a matter of reinventing the wheel, true, but it is a matter of living and working in a place where certain legal protections are in place, which is not a place where we live or work. There's a reason why the other "major carriers" have made this type of contract work, and it's because they do have first world protections. Cathay has shown that they will do whatever they want to, whenever they want to, and we won't do anything about it.
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Old 7th Jun 2016, 00:57
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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The AOA is you!!!

I agree 110% with what CR said.

This pilot group is its own worst enemy.
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