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The open threat from Ms. Thompson the Director of Flight Operations

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The open threat from Ms. Thompson the Director of Flight Operations

Old 30th Apr 2016, 07:46
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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"This is what their hiring is for"

Ummmm....... There is NO active hiring at KA at the moment except for the odd Cadet course. In fact things are so slow in the training department that ALL line pilots have been assigned Line Continuation Training, as well as Fleet Forums. 12 x 330's..... Fantastic! At least we'll get out of LCT now. When are they arriving? 🙄🙄🙄

b.
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Old 1st May 2016, 00:54
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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After we send 13 of the better ones back perhaps, we are very quickly running out of good ones to lose. Our "old for new" replacement policy is about our only recent success. At least they have stopped calling ours a "modern fleet" in the inflight magazine, the lie just got too obvious.
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Old 1st May 2016, 02:07
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Today's scmp

Cathay Pacific to use Dragonair to get around industrial dispute ban on training, union source reveals.

http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/eco...strial-dispute

Yea that'll work
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Old 1st May 2016, 07:15
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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151 ASR-F reports received in ONE MONTH !!!!!!(Feb) "An all time high"
This is a group of Professional Pilots screaming MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY!!!
This makes me so angry !!!Nothing has changed of any substance at all in the last two years - goddamit I am so angry.
Anna - Please do something about these rosters before we loose a Jet & 300 people !!
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Old 1st May 2016, 13:58
  #165 (permalink)  
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You need real airline people to understand the airline biz. We need a Willi Walsh. Have you seen what he's done at BA. THEY ARE KEEPING 18 747s plus the 3 other widebody types. We were once a leader and now we've become mundane like so many others. Sad but costs are the only thing they have on their minds. The product is dying and so is the job!
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Old 1st May 2016, 14:43
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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How many sectors do we fly a month, stevieboy330? 37,000? More? Loose a jet?

151/37000 = only 0.4% of flights have an ASR-F. Wow. That's an impressive number!
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Old 1st May 2016, 17:28
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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151/37000 = only 0.4% of flights have an ASR-F. Wow. That's an impressive number!
If this were a truly safe operation with a genuine concern for safety, then the rostering practices would reflect a desire to minimise fatigue and there would be "Zero" reports.

Also, just because only 151 reports were filed does not mean that only 151 pilots felt fatigued. The true number will never be known because many pilots will feel too intimidated to file reports, and a substantially higher number won't file reports because they realise it is a pointless exercise because nobody in management is ever going to do anything about the situation until there is a hull loss.
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Old 1st May 2016, 18:51
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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151 reports , let's say 75 flights had fatigued crew (for argument sake CN and FO). Each flight with an average of let's say 150 pax only ( low loads, freighters etc).

So we have 11000 passengers flying with fatigued crew up front. But we can live with 11000 potential fatalities. Its just 0.4% right??

Ducking Clown
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Old 2nd May 2016, 02:31
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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0.4 4% 2% 7% that number doesn't really matter, I'm just pointing out that there are 5 flights every day where the Pilots feel the need to report a serious safety concern, that's all. I'm not looking for a fight.
I am well aware that for every report that is filed, there are many that should have been filed but were not for a variety of reasons. It seems that CX feel it is "OK" for their aircraft to be flying along at 950km/h likley in the middle of the night in poor weather & over significant terrain or possibly conducting a challenging instrument approach, with Pilots up the front who are so tired that they feel they need to inform the regulators. This is a preface to an accident, plain & simple.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 03:26
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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The regulators are not being informed by the submission of ASR(f)s and FMRSC claim there is no real problem because ASR(f)s are not being submitted enough. It's a total sham!

Originally Posted by stevieboy330
0.4 4% 2% 7% that number doesn't really matter, I'm just pointing out that there are 5 flights every day where the Pilots feel the need to report a serious safety concern, that's all. I'm not looking for a fight.
I am well aware that for every report that is filed, there are many that should have been filed but were not for a variety of reasons. It seems that CX feel it is "OK" for their aircraft to be flying along at 950km/h likley in the middle of the night in poor weather & over significant terrain or possibly conducting a challenging instrument approach, with Pilots up the front who are so tired that they feel they need to inform the regulators. This is a preface to an accident, plain & simple.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 07:31
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Tiring patterns will only be changed if there is overwhelming evidence that virtually everybody is adversely affected. In a way, this is understandable so if you want a pattern to be changed, fill in an ASR F. If you don't bother then you can't complain.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 10:06
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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ASR-Fs and AFTLS fail massively on the same point. They look at the most current duty, while a duty maybe tiring in isolation, nothing is done to look at the fatigue that the buildup of multiple tiring patterns have.

The failure from a scientific point on ASR-Fs is the data is being collected to look at the single last duty, when the data should rather be looking at the the combination of duties. If a duty comes up regularly on ASR-Fs, why isn't a group of pilots given that duty following say 72 hours rest to see if they also result in an ASR-F.

Our industry is so far behind the rest of the world. In many parts of the world employers who have shift workers have published tools via apps or websites where multiple shifts are looked at, and they will tell you if necessary to tell the duty manager the system says I must be fatigued, find me a replacement.

Talk to any sleep expert, the alternating day/night shifts we do are extremely dangerous. The scientific data shows human performance will be worse than someone that is legally drunk.

In our industry, we have call in sick, when we are not sick, we are fatigued. Some airlines even take away pay or holidays for being fatigued at the company's behest.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 14:14
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Abagnale you genius!

You eloquently pointed out the total idiocy of all these convoluted rubbish rules.

It's simple. If you work me through the night I need a break at some point in the flight so give me a relief pilot!

This is the most basic thing and they haven't figured that out yet.....

So a Dubai flight through the day gets an unnecessary relief pilot but a Perth through the night doesn't. Etc etc etc.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 14:59
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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oval 3 holer
lies, damned lies and statistics.

stevieboy330 was reporting what I will assume is a fact.

It was 151 events out of 37,000 according to you.

Now let's make it real world by an example - if 37,000 people go to 247 beaches once each over 30 days - and every day 5 people swim at each of those 247 beaches- that equates to 37,000 swimming events.

Now if it just so happens that one of those beaches has a 100% reporting rate for shark attacks - which means 5 people being attacked by sharks every day for 30 days. Would you ignore the shark attacks because it is only 151 out of 37,000?

Anecdotally I have heard of ASRF reporting rates of near 50% on one particular pattern- not facts, just hear say. But you know I am not a huge hear say person so please give some credence to what I say. Point is - an issue is raised - don't dismiss out of hand by some sophistic or overly simplistic argument....look at the data and evaluate accordingly!
cheers
NC

edit because I know what I mean to say, but I don't always say what I mean!

Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 3rd May 2016 at 16:29.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 01:37
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Im submitting an ASRF from reading this crap!
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Old 3rd May 2016, 02:58
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Which pattern? (Yep, I hear you when you say only a rumour but still curious).

Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero
oval 3 holer
lies, damned lies and statistics.

stevieboy330 was reporting what I will assume is a fact.

It was 151 events out of 37,000 according to you.

Now let's make it real world by an example - if 37,000 people go to 247 beaches - and every day 5 people swim at each of those 247 beaches- that equates to 37,000 swimming events.

Now if it just so happens that one of those beaches has a 100% reporting rate for shark attacks - which means 5 people being attacked by sharks every day for 30 days. Would you ignore the shark attacks because it is only 151 out of 37,000?

Anecdotally I have heard of ASRF reporting rates of near 50% on one particular pattern- not facts, just hear say. But you know I am not a huge hear say person so please give some credence to what I say. Point is - an issue is raised - don't dismiss out of hand by some sophistic or overly simplistic argument....look at the data and evaluate accordingly!
cheers
NC

edit because I know what I mean to say, but I don't always say what I mean!
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Old 3rd May 2016, 16:10
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Curtain,
a few facts.
It takes 3 LHR-HKG-LHR patterns for UK based to get 84 credit hours. So whether it is crammed into 21 or 27 calendar days doesn't really matter. They(CX) will get their productivity.

The summer schedule fully complies with AFTLS. It does NOT comply with the company's own NTC limitations.

The waiver you speak of is for a company imposed, 3 man trial to UK limitation. It has NO effect on AFTLS - so has no effect on any other 3 man flights.

The decision to do this was made non industrially by non industrial representatives who are responsible for safety not politics....and they are/were in a minority on the FRMSC.

This change has NO effect on HKG based pilots flying to LHR as part of the trial.

The only pilots who lose/gain from this are the EUR based pilots who are on that particular pattern.

You talk about the Canadians having excellent protection - they have RP07 - I don't know what additional protections they have above that (as pointed out by CPDUDE) but I do know they were pressured into doing 3 man flights on occasion. In exactly the same way as HKAOA pilots were when RP07 was in force. It was legal to operate iaw AFTLS but against the letter of the contract.

I'm all for calling out CX when it is warranted - but this seems to be a rant without a reason IMHO!

Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 4th May 2016 at 13:51. Reason: cpdude rightly called my statement's veracity about AOAC into question. Edited accordingly
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Old 3rd May 2016, 16:49
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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NC, are you suggesting if it's posted in PPrune it must be true? Let's not pretend to know the details of a Canadian contract when the opposite is obviously closer to the truth.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 20:27
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Numero Zero
I Agree with Cpdude, You need to know the facts! I heard how bad the Canadian Scope clause was too and I pointed that out to them and then they said oh really the HKAOA scope clause is better??? Then why are they training crew for Air Hong Kong for the company to give them more airplanes and fly CX freight!!
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Old 3rd May 2016, 22:32
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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AOAE representatives have dropped the ball on this one, and what gets me more wound up is the Chairman with his "I'm baffled this is a problem" speech and refusing to listen to anyone's concerns on the forum.

disingenuous

We call CX out when they dick around with wording when it suits them. Well what has AOAE just done? All because spending an extra day at the Headland would mean they miss an episode of Coronation Street.
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