Staff Travel Change
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Swire types must be soaking their pants with joyjuice over threads like this. Divide and conquer squared. Now they're dividing and dividing and conquering.... *sigh*..........
Don't play into their hands people. It's our choice to treat each other as allies with a common problem, or get bogged down in sheer pettiness that benefits no one except the people who decided to coral us all into our own little playpens in the first place.
Don't play into their hands people. It's our choice to treat each other as allies with a common problem, or get bogged down in sheer pettiness that benefits no one except the people who decided to coral us all into our own little playpens in the first place.
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66305, for your first post since 2012, I have got to hand it to you. 
Appreciate the perspective.
We have no control over a non COS item, you are 100% correct.
KA in my humble opinion has been limited by CX ownership, not just freight side being shut down, but the pax fleet lost serious expansion momentum too, the AUS expansion that was stopped immediately springs to mind. The only investment in a decade has been the Turkish airlines paint job, but you are spot on, the oncarriage both ways is significant, and supposedly will increase now that we are looking less KA and more CX according to Ivan. Lets see how that works out. "Change is in the air" or so he says.
But a genuine thanks for your perspective and balanced view.
Appreciate the perspective.
We have no control over a non COS item, you are 100% correct.
KA in my humble opinion has been limited by CX ownership, not just freight side being shut down, but the pax fleet lost serious expansion momentum too, the AUS expansion that was stopped immediately springs to mind. The only investment in a decade has been the Turkish airlines paint job, but you are spot on, the oncarriage both ways is significant, and supposedly will increase now that we are looking less KA and more CX according to Ivan. Lets see how that works out. "Change is in the air" or so he says.
But a genuine thanks for your perspective and balanced view.
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Cathay Pacific GROUP
This whole staff travel 'merge' simply fails the common sense test. No management speak will change that.
We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.
This is a divisive act which augers badly for more nasty divisive acts to follow.
Otherwise why do it?
We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.
This is a divisive act which augers badly for more nasty divisive acts to follow.
Otherwise why do it?
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We are airlines in the Cathay Pacific group, yes, but we are different airlines with different AOC's, with different crew and cabin crew on different employment contracts. The fact we do so collectively for the Swire Group is a business construct.
And the same can be said for so many others. Air France/KLM, Continental/United, British Airways/Iberian, American Airlines/US Airways.
The 'us and them', 'your airline, my airline' argument just doesn't hold up.
As I already have access to both systems, I too stand to lose out, personally. However, I still think it's still the right thing to do. Your 'ugly sister' has been making a disproportionate contribution to the group bottom line for a long time now. Through a set of circumstances not of their own making, the pilots and cabin crew have been left out in the cold while every other employee (dispatchers, catering management, security, cargo, planning, line ops, the lady that pushes the tea trolley during elevensies) have been moved to CX in the exact same role with original DOJ. Aircrew are just the last piece of pie to be swallowed.
For those that rely on staff travel to get home; yes, it's a bitter pill to swallow. But the unpalatability of the medicine bears no relation to its need.
In a perfect world, we would have joined the 2 lists into a Y on date of merger and so many birds would have been killed with one stone. But, both unions had their eye off the ball and now we're where we are.
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I'm intrigued by this pending atrocity!
I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?
This is a Group Staff Travel Scheme. I'm amazed that some of you honestly think the DPA holds so much sway over the very senior managers in CX that had them quaking in their boots at the whisper of KA going into contract compliance! Whilst the DPAC are probably flattered by that thought, I think that it is as far away from reality as it is that the remaining 2500 folk left in KA will all use their FOC 11s to jump on CX flights to SYD.
Well over 70% of the Group's staff are Chinese. Ergo, it is logical that some 20000 CX staff will be welcoming the chance to get home to their home cities with a degree of certainty.
All of us, both CX and KA are left in a lose/lose situation. We all have a choice. We can chose to stay on the current schemes, such as they are, which will still affect your boarding priority regardless, or we can elect to sign to the new Group Travel Scheme, which will also have boarding priority issues and for a very small number, some 200, will cost them money too.
Finally, the immaturity of those who threaten to block KA pilots from their jumpseats because of this Group announcement, is just that. I will continue to issue jumpseats to my CX colleagues in the same way as I have always. CX pilots will always get a seat on my flight deck if asked.
I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?
This is a Group Staff Travel Scheme. I'm amazed that some of you honestly think the DPA holds so much sway over the very senior managers in CX that had them quaking in their boots at the whisper of KA going into contract compliance! Whilst the DPAC are probably flattered by that thought, I think that it is as far away from reality as it is that the remaining 2500 folk left in KA will all use their FOC 11s to jump on CX flights to SYD.
Well over 70% of the Group's staff are Chinese. Ergo, it is logical that some 20000 CX staff will be welcoming the chance to get home to their home cities with a degree of certainty.
All of us, both CX and KA are left in a lose/lose situation. We all have a choice. We can chose to stay on the current schemes, such as they are, which will still affect your boarding priority regardless, or we can elect to sign to the new Group Travel Scheme, which will also have boarding priority issues and for a very small number, some 200, will cost them money too.
Finally, the immaturity of those who threaten to block KA pilots from their jumpseats because of this Group announcement, is just that. I will continue to issue jumpseats to my CX colleagues in the same way as I have always. CX pilots will always get a seat on my flight deck if asked.
I presume Curtain, you are referring to the fact that 27000 CX employees and their spouses and their offspring, on their FOC 11s, will be able to muscle in ahead of a 16-year captain on his own airline's aircraft trying to get home as a commuter to his own family in HKT, BKI or a myriad of other ports?
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To all dragonair
You are not Cathay pacific.
You are not welcome on OUR P25. DOJ.
You negotiated with CX when we(AOA) are in CC with CX- that makes you a scab. Fark off twats!
You are not welcome on OUR P25. DOJ.
You negotiated with CX when we(AOA) are in CC with CX- that makes you a scab. Fark off twats!
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Plenty of 89ers in KA who would want to "re-educate you" for that comment root tuner. We were given this pri25 over 2 years ago now, (without asking for it). You weren't in CC then. And we never asked for it. If you are going to use the "S' word you had better get your facts straight. Instead save the S word for those of your own group that seek to damage your industrial action from within.
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Can I apologise to you Dragons for Route Tuner - whatever his position, he's talking like a child who needs a spanking, and we would like to converse with you either in or out of agreement like adults. Now where were we....
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You forgot already? Well we were discussing further degradation to our conditions. Regardless whether you are a regular commuter to Aussieland or a stay at home local, this is another pineapple in the backside for CX staff.
It amazes me how the KA clowns AS WELL AS the CX clowns on here try to rationalise the decision with what they think are good arguments for and against.
We are pilots and unlike our cafe latte drinking colleagues, we should look at the big picture. I'll paint it for you. A staff from a wannabe Turkish airline can bump you off from your own airline.
Rest assured this will be fought, most probably lost, but fought none the less. And it doesn't require an emergency focus night, sipping luke warm coffee to decide that. I believe a motion is currently being drafted.
It amazes me how the KA clowns AS WELL AS the CX clowns on here try to rationalise the decision with what they think are good arguments for and against.
We are pilots and unlike our cafe latte drinking colleagues, we should look at the big picture. I'll paint it for you. A staff from a wannabe Turkish airline can bump you off from your own airline.
Rest assured this will be fought, most probably lost, but fought none the less. And it doesn't require an emergency focus night, sipping luke warm coffee to decide that. I believe a motion is currently being drafted.
1. The AOA did not tell the DPA to $£@k off, or anything approaching such.
What mugs KA pilots would have been to pursue this- we have pilots who joined long after the CX-KA purchase who are now Captains. Those commands should have been your members.
we should look at the big picture.
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KA has been a Cathay Pacific operation since January 1990, 26 years!!
KA has been financially controlled by Swire and Cathay Pacific and 100% managed by Cathay Pacific since January 1990.
The Cathay expansion in the 80's was because of Dragonair, 'the best thing that happened to Cathay was Dragonair', quick command.
Cathay were awarded the long haul routes Dragonair had applied for and CX had to operate them.
Cathay decided to cancel the KA MD-11 long haul orders, KA was the launch customer of that aircraft.
Cathay had to operate as Dragonair into China out of political necessity, most likely survived beyond 1997, the demise of CNAC, by offering the mainland Chinese CNAC owners a steak in Dragonair.
The whole thing has been part of Cathay, except the name for 26 years!
Maybe we should all show the Dragon some respect!
Those are the facts, whether you like it or not.
The Cathay expansion in the 80's was because of Dragonair, 'the best thing that happened to Cathay was Dragonair', quick command.
Cathay were awarded the long haul routes Dragonair had applied for and CX had to operate them.
Cathay decided to cancel the KA MD-11 long haul orders, KA was the launch customer of that aircraft.
Cathay had to operate as Dragonair into China out of political necessity, most likely survived beyond 1997, the demise of CNAC, by offering the mainland Chinese CNAC owners a steak in Dragonair.
The whole thing has been part of Cathay, except the name for 26 years!
Maybe we should all show the Dragon some respect!
Those are the facts, whether you like it or not.
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You conveniently neglected to mention it was heading down the toilet in the late 1980s until Cathay stepped in, but let's not let a few facts get in the way of a good story.
If staff travel goes strictly on DOJ then why not have KA commands do the same thing. CX F/Os waiting for command at CX should have the option to take an early command at KA. KA pilots won't mind since we're one big airline and once all the CX pilots have accepted or declined their commands at KA in strict DOJ for both airlines, KA command upgrades could continue.
Surely a happy compromise. Staff travel at DOJ for KA commands at DOJ......
If staff travel goes strictly on DOJ then why not have KA commands do the same thing. CX F/Os waiting for command at CX should have the option to take an early command at KA. KA pilots won't mind since we're one big airline and once all the CX pilots have accepted or declined their commands at KA in strict DOJ for both airlines, KA command upgrades could continue.
Surely a happy compromise. Staff travel at DOJ for KA commands at DOJ......
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As you wish, Anotherday.
But bags not being the one to tell 200+ of your Captains that they're being busted back to FO by your policy.
Good enough for the goose, good enough for the Gander
But bags not being the one to tell 200+ of your Captains that they're being busted back to FO by your policy.
Good enough for the goose, good enough for the Gander
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The whole thing is a big ugly stinking mess. It is designed to cause fury and disrupt our ability to band together.
Management actively seek ways in which to divide us, and cause misery in the process.
Look at all the other "no cost" solutions to problems which are extremely divisive, never resolved. Why? It is the design of the game. Keep the teams hating each other for problems which were not caused by them, but disadvantage everyone. Each side blaming the other.
This is all done on purpose to smokescreen us, to get us all in a frenzy, keep us jealous and hateful, and mostly to keep us from joining forces.
Imagine if we spent all of this energy on being cohesive and formulating a united strategy of support for each other?
Let's be clever for a change, can we please?
Management actively seek ways in which to divide us, and cause misery in the process.
Look at all the other "no cost" solutions to problems which are extremely divisive, never resolved. Why? It is the design of the game. Keep the teams hating each other for problems which were not caused by them, but disadvantage everyone. Each side blaming the other.
This is all done on purpose to smokescreen us, to get us all in a frenzy, keep us jealous and hateful, and mostly to keep us from joining forces.
Imagine if we spent all of this energy on being cohesive and formulating a united strategy of support for each other?
Let's be clever for a change, can we please?
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Indeed, if the plan is to merge the airlines in the future, it would be smart for the airlines to create a wedge between the different pilot groups, making it hard for the unions to merge.
Divide and conquer, has worked since roman times.
We should get some leadership from the unions to keep our heads cool and prepare for the inevitable merger of pilot groups.
Divide and conquer, has worked since roman times.
We should get some leadership from the unions to keep our heads cool and prepare for the inevitable merger of pilot groups.
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I wasn't going to add to this but there seems to be a level of hysteria here and I think we need a reality/ fact check. Plus some clarifications.
1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.
2. Of those 10%, 85% are local/ regional Asians. Now, I'm not saying locals don't travel widely but the statics do say that the most popular countries on staff travel are Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, and Thailand. All 4 countries are served by both airlines.
3 The remaining employees (340 of them, 1.5%) are expats. Mostly they are British/Irish/European. With Aust/NZ next and then a smattering from Nth American, Africans etc.
4 Of the 340 around 200 have a DOJ prior to 2006. Of the remainder most joined post 2010 as there was no employment 2008/9 due to the GFC.
5.Your chances of being bumped by a KA staff is a sliding scale 10% if you're a new joiner down to nothing if you are very senior ( hardly Armageddon!).
Next. Perception.
Do CX employees perceive the KA crew to be part of CX?
Probably not. There has been virtually no noticeable difference to the operation since the purchase of KA in 2006. KAs inclusion hardly caused a ripple.
Do KA employees perceive themselves part of CX?
Yes, since 2006 everything KA has done has been orchestrated by CX. KAs aircraft, routes, expansion and contraction, frequencies, cabin layout etc etc. we do all our training at Cathay City. CX even introduced some weird Airbus/ Boeing/ McDonald Douglas hybrid checklist to our all Airbus fleet to bring KA inline with CX. So, Yes, KA crew do perceive themselves to be now an integral part of CX.
Next. DOJ controversy.
I believe you have a point. However there are two problems changing it from what I can see.
The first is purely administration. You would have to apply two DOJs to each and every employee. One for the DOJ of their respective airlines and one for the 2006 purchase date. Probably doable ,but messy.
Secondly, and more importantly, a precedent has already been set by CX. All previous KA employees who came across to CX in 2006 didn't get 2006 as their DOJ but got their DOJ with KA.
Next. Benefits KA staff get
10 weeks leave per year.
Yes that's true. However it is not quite as it seems. It is quite a clever system that makes optimum use of g days and allows better planning of crew leave. The 40 days leave given is divided up into 10 blocks of 4. Leave is given in week blocks only ( Saturday to Friday or Wednesday to Tuesday). A week block will consist of g,g,l,l,l,l,g. Rostering will manipulate the roster to ensure in a month with leave in it you get the correct amount of g days. ( 8 or 9 normally).
A month with 2 weeks leave looks something like this.
6 work,2G, 4L, 2G, 4L, 2G,5 work,2G, 5 work. You still only get 8 gs in the month but it has been effectively combined with L days.
Travel Fund.
Of the 527 KA pilots approximately 200 still get a travel fund. ( local and standard contract guys don't get it. The new standard contract has ring fenced the current recipients). 3 of the 200 are A scalers who get a better deal. The remaining expat B guys get differing amounts depending on their domicile. With a wife and 2 kids Europe 120K. Aust/NZ. 90k. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe CX had a scheme up until B scale introduction in 93 when it was incorporated in the basic wage. Partially the reason CX drivers have a higher basic than KA.
Concessions by KA staff to join CX corporate scheme.
Travel fund. This will be reduced by 15 to 20 % depending on your pay scale and domicile.
Common Law Spouse. As CX doesn't recognise a CLS then the KA crew will either have to get married or nominate their CLS as a companion.
Tickets for school boarders. Currently KA provides 2 tickets a year for boarders to return to HK. CX system requires that an ID 75 be purchased.
Faster Commands at KA.
True. However I believe there should no longer be 2 year commands at KA. This is a wasted opportunity for both CX and the AOA. 5 year FOs at CX could step straight into a command on a 320 at KA, or if they deemed that below them, stay as an FO for another 10 years to get a 330 command at CX.
I understand where CX pilots are coming from however I believe some of the reactions are disproportionate to the reality.
1. The numbers of KA staff involved make up just over 10% of the total workforce. Therefore, statistically if there are 10 people listed on a flight 1 will be KA.
2. Of those 10%, 85% are local/ regional Asians. Now, I'm not saying locals don't travel widely but the statics do say that the most popular countries on staff travel are Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, and Thailand. All 4 countries are served by both airlines.
3 The remaining employees (340 of them, 1.5%) are expats. Mostly they are British/Irish/European. With Aust/NZ next and then a smattering from Nth American, Africans etc.
4 Of the 340 around 200 have a DOJ prior to 2006. Of the remainder most joined post 2010 as there was no employment 2008/9 due to the GFC.
5.Your chances of being bumped by a KA staff is a sliding scale 10% if you're a new joiner down to nothing if you are very senior ( hardly Armageddon!).
Next. Perception.
Do CX employees perceive the KA crew to be part of CX?
Probably not. There has been virtually no noticeable difference to the operation since the purchase of KA in 2006. KAs inclusion hardly caused a ripple.
Do KA employees perceive themselves part of CX?
Yes, since 2006 everything KA has done has been orchestrated by CX. KAs aircraft, routes, expansion and contraction, frequencies, cabin layout etc etc. we do all our training at Cathay City. CX even introduced some weird Airbus/ Boeing/ McDonald Douglas hybrid checklist to our all Airbus fleet to bring KA inline with CX. So, Yes, KA crew do perceive themselves to be now an integral part of CX.
Next. DOJ controversy.
I believe you have a point. However there are two problems changing it from what I can see.
The first is purely administration. You would have to apply two DOJs to each and every employee. One for the DOJ of their respective airlines and one for the 2006 purchase date. Probably doable ,but messy.
Secondly, and more importantly, a precedent has already been set by CX. All previous KA employees who came across to CX in 2006 didn't get 2006 as their DOJ but got their DOJ with KA.
Next. Benefits KA staff get
10 weeks leave per year.
Yes that's true. However it is not quite as it seems. It is quite a clever system that makes optimum use of g days and allows better planning of crew leave. The 40 days leave given is divided up into 10 blocks of 4. Leave is given in week blocks only ( Saturday to Friday or Wednesday to Tuesday). A week block will consist of g,g,l,l,l,l,g. Rostering will manipulate the roster to ensure in a month with leave in it you get the correct amount of g days. ( 8 or 9 normally).
A month with 2 weeks leave looks something like this.
6 work,2G, 4L, 2G, 4L, 2G,5 work,2G, 5 work. You still only get 8 gs in the month but it has been effectively combined with L days.
Travel Fund.
Of the 527 KA pilots approximately 200 still get a travel fund. ( local and standard contract guys don't get it. The new standard contract has ring fenced the current recipients). 3 of the 200 are A scalers who get a better deal. The remaining expat B guys get differing amounts depending on their domicile. With a wife and 2 kids Europe 120K. Aust/NZ. 90k. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe CX had a scheme up until B scale introduction in 93 when it was incorporated in the basic wage. Partially the reason CX drivers have a higher basic than KA.
Concessions by KA staff to join CX corporate scheme.
Travel fund. This will be reduced by 15 to 20 % depending on your pay scale and domicile.
Common Law Spouse. As CX doesn't recognise a CLS then the KA crew will either have to get married or nominate their CLS as a companion.
Tickets for school boarders. Currently KA provides 2 tickets a year for boarders to return to HK. CX system requires that an ID 75 be purchased.
Faster Commands at KA.
True. However I believe there should no longer be 2 year commands at KA. This is a wasted opportunity for both CX and the AOA. 5 year FOs at CX could step straight into a command on a 320 at KA, or if they deemed that below them, stay as an FO for another 10 years to get a 330 command at CX.
I understand where CX pilots are coming from however I believe some of the reactions are disproportionate to the reality.
For the love of God Giggsy. Don't let reason cloud the issue.