Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

More Contract Compliance

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

More Contract Compliance

Old 10th Nov 2015, 09:56
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Before we bought you guys what were your chances of survival? Please enlighten me as to you balance sheet situation before WE bought YOU.....I'd love to know how you were traveling..
ACMS, did you shell out any money for KA? I know I sure didn't. "We" didn't buy KA, our employer did, and they did it neither for our welfare nor for that of KA pilots.

While we pilots squabble for crumbs like pigeons on St. Mark's square (Pri 25 vs Pri 26?), our managers simply smile.

Let's not do their divide and conquer work for them; as far as I'm concerned we're all ex-something, but in the HERE and NOW we are all pretty much in the same boat.
main_dog is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 10:14
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sector C
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Many cabin crew have gone KA CX vv, none retained DOJ.

All the KA freighter pilots that came across joined the bottom of seniority list as FOs, like the ASL and OASIS pilots.

They are sitting around 2/3 down the seniority list. None are eligible for a CX pax command, most too junior to even hold a pax FO base. A number of KA captains would not have the seniority to even hold a JFO position in CX.

If you want to extend the KA concept out further, there would be another 4000 pilots within Air China and Air Hong Kong.
Eyes only is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 10:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The offer of Pri25 for both pilot groups on both airlines came from CX without being asked for. It was confidently announced in Jan 2014 with a start date of Jan 2015 and at first, it seemed a good thing. It was about the same time as KA took over PEN and My guess it was a CX manager's knee jerk reaction when it looked like KA was going to take over more of the local destinations where many CX pilots like to live and who would now be lower on the priority to make commuting a viable lifestyle option.

However, when the details were made known, it was realised that there were a few devils in the details and it wasn't such a good deal after all. Since then, it's all gone quiet and CX seem not to want to discuss it as they realise it will open a large can of worms. Having had it offered and then taken away has annoyed some KA pilots. In the meantime, one benefit for CX management is that the CX and KA guys are even more divided and consequently easier to conquer.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 10:49
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Before we bought you guys what were your chances of survival?
Very good. KA is a very strong brand and was making money in quite a difficult period. CX must have thought the same which is why they paid about twice the market valuation for KA.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 12:15
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not in a Bus
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They were Hedging - "Doh!!"
White None is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 12:34
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CX STAFF???

Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
Nope Weary, this promise of Pri25 based on your DOJ was offered during private talks without informing any CX employee, it should not have be offered in the first place and maybe that's why CX haven't given it to you yet.

In fact it is currently in our manuals showing KA assigned Pri26 whilst we have Pri25 and thus on-loaded ahead of any KA employee using DOJ for all, as it should be on our Airline.

Why haven't we complained? We were not told the details at all of what you wanted or the details of staff already transferred across and getting it.

Only the KA staff that were transferred across to CX get Pri25. Anyone still wearing a KA ID card and working for KA gets Pri26 as per the Boarding Priority table published.

These staff that came across do now work for CX and I guess must get continuity of service. You still work for KA, sorry but that's the way it is now.

Until they join up the two Airlines and make you wear a CX ID card, CX uniform and fly CX painted Aircraft on CX services you ain't a CX employee. Then the fun really will begin.... a whole new can of worms....

We'll still give you J1 if you ask for it and will go out of our way to help where possible, as we all should.

So yes you can have original DOJ but on Pri26.

Done and dusted.
ACMS - Do you need to wear a CX Uniform and fly CX painted aircraft to have the privilege of a priority 25?
How would you feel if a 6 month senior office clerk working in KA house (CX employee with a KA ID card mind you), measuring your uniform, printing your CFPs, typing in your ASR, looking into your HPS receipts, delivering the post to your mailbox or calling you out on standby would jump ahead of you in the staff travel queue bypassing the 15 year seniority that you've accrued contributing to CATHAY!!!! (at least for the last 9 years)?

Could be interesting crunching the numbers for the KA contribution in the group...carrying roughly 40% of the pax I believe...the weekly updates seeing the CX figures dragging down the surplus that KA brings on...but at the same time being regarded as second class employees when it comes to staff travel, aircraft deliveries and loosing airframes (new A330s or old jumbos) when it suits "the family" while accepting wetleases and our routes being flown by CX aircraft on a daily basis...

Enough said...I still see a lot of dust gathering on your arguments! It's still dirty as f#*k if you ask me - let's clean this up TOGETHER and stop this supertanker of a boat going down!
Stone Temple Pilot is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 13:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
10 years ago at Ka, everyone joined on B scale, we got experienced applicants with plenty of jet time, they needed it. time to upgrade was pretty quick. "You are part of the group now, we need to offer them C scale, no more experienced FOs for you, that's the way we do things now here."

We had half a dozen 400 freighters on order, and a few had already arrived. "You are part of the group now, we need to shut the freight arm, but you are welcome to come and join the bottom of our list! Thats the way we do things here."

We had slots into SYD, "We need to give those back to the pot, the opposition might pick them up, but we would prefer that to a group airline making money on it. Thats the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

"Those heavy weight 330's they have to go to us, you are part of the group, you can have our light weight prototype airframes as a replacement, for the good of the group of course!"

That simulator centre you have, we need to close that. Thats the way we do things here, you are part of the group now. Oh and that ground school? That has to go, you are part of the group now."

Those silly airbus procedures you do? Why would you do that? Airbus doesnt know how to fly, it only knows how to make aircraft. You need to stop doing that, we will send Captain Geoff and Richard to come over and show you all how it is done, this is the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

Jepps? No, we have nav tech, much cheaper, you will save a fortune, thats the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

Training support? We will decommission your training assets, you can come and book an IPT at 2-3am, thats the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

New interiors? We want a seemless product! We want the customers to have no idea if they are on a CX or KA aircraft was the brief we were sold. As long as your interiors remain inferior. Thats the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

"Haeco engineering support? no, we will give you CASL! The oldest most poorly maintained airframes in the fleet will be serviced by the most inexperienced engineers, and be flown by the most inexperienced pilots in the group, and they will fly to ports without ANY engineering support at all. That's the way we do things here, you are part of the group now."

"Allowances? Yes, well you can stay in a lower standard of hotel and your allowances should be much less than the CX allowances, its for the good of the group."

Please sir can we have staff travel? it is a zero cost item, and we produce nearly 50% of your profits with less than a third of the airframes?" "Why on earth would we give you that? Its not like you are part of the group!"

CC? We should already be in it, after all, we are part of the group are we not?
Lowkoon is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 14:28
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is so typical of Fragrant Harbour...

A great opportunity exists (or is about to) for us all to come together and fight a common cause but instead you are all at each other's throats!

Is it a surprise to anyone that we find ourselves in the current malaise?

Last edited by Max Reheat; 10th Nov 2015 at 16:58.
Max Reheat is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 15:03
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is a surprise to anyone that we find ourselves in the current malaise?
Amen.

We have a disastrous rostering system that induces chronic fatigue and unstable lifestyle for all. And that was before the company unilaterally enforced 3-man to Europe.

We are 2 years away from losing housing altogether.

We have never had a salary increase that would match inflation, much less exceed it.

We are dealing with an unaccountable employer that would rather sabotage its own business than spending a dime to try and improve life for the employees it keeps screwing.

Our training keeps being reduced despite a recent damning accusations by most of our senior trainers regarding the state of the training dept and the level of experience in cockpits.

And that's before even mentioning the all-out attrition war being carried out on our CoS.

But sure. Let's bicker about who gets priority 25 and who gets 26 because it sure makes a F#CK TON of difference when all flights are full anyway since, and that's the saddest (or funniest) part, this company is making a crap load of money while tightening our collective belt.

Yonosoy Marinero is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2015, 19:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Touché YM. Full aircraft relegates staff travel far from a viable option on most occasions irrespective of your priority, I agree. I know most KA colleagues would welcome the opportunity for us to all pull together. I'm certainly all for it and I don't see the discussion on this thread as 'being at one another's throats'. I guess the main 'annoyance' that's been stirred up in relation to staff travel priority is more the principle that the rest of our staff have simply been provided with a CX badge and 'upgraded' to 25 and we were told to expect same. As mentioned earlier by someone else, we didn't ask for it either. It was simply stated to be an imminent improvement. Who knows. Maybe there never was any intention of following through with it. Just another method of driving a wedge between the 2 pilot groups? Well, I'm not going to allow it to sour my relationship with my CX mates even if it doesn't eventuate. Hope the feeling is reciprocated.
Weary traveller is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 01:17
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maybe there never was any intention of following through with it.
Where have I heard that before?...

At least we can all take solace in the certainty that our common employer is equally serious about making life miserable for pilots in both its airlines.
Yonosoy Marinero is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 02:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: hong kong
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Going back to the original thread, is staff travel really what KA is going into CC for?
kiwicx is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 06:15
  #33 (permalink)  
CCA
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You reneg on a deal with KA pilots they go into CC, simple.

CX pilots should be the same.
CCA is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 08:00
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Reneging is a CX management SOP.

Anyone remember the promise of 25 year housing?

..........

And if we are going to have equal travel. I would be very happy to do so. BUT, we really should look at equal pay and benefits for CX and KA, ie put us all on the same package and make it a fair playing field.

KA get paid for full duty in their HDP... not just flight time. This is one of the reasons KA do not have to endure split duty flights.

KA have a lot of benefits that we over in CX could negotiate for, in return for giving them PRI 25 travel. Surely that would be a win for everyone??!!
anotherbusdriver is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 11:36
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: hongkers
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
True enough AnotherBD.

However I believe some of the benefits KA now receive were negotiated away by CX pilots many years ago. I could be wrong but I believe the travel fund and the compulsory 13 month bonus went back in the 90s. That is why CX pilots get a substantially higher basic monthly pay compared to KA drivers. Those items were abolished at CX in exchange for a higher basic wage where as KA pilots retained them. The travel fund used to be a pain in the butt as you had to submit receipts for everything. I can see why CX pilots got rid of it. However it changed to a cash payment for us several years ago to cut down on all the admin. We get a cash payment once a year based on your home domicile, you get a higher monthly wage.

While we are on a bit of history. Just for the benefit of ACMS. Swire bought a 25% stake in KA not long after its inception. They converted this to full ownership in 2006. Prior to the 2006 KA was doing well with plans for 100 aircraft by 2015 and international long haul. Sydney was supposed to be the first destination IN 2005. The CX purchase put an end to those plans and the KA fleet was reduced by 30% with aircraft either being taken by CX or sold. Commands ground to a halt for 5 years. HKA stepped into the void and started their long haul. I'm not sure if CX rescued KA as more tamed a potential rival, plus gained a massive amount of goodwill and on carriage from China travellers. ( made sense really)

To correct some other misconceptions ( eyes only). The KA freighter captains who came over to CX came in as captains. Bottom of the seniority yes, but captains non the less. Our old GMO who was the main reason for our last bout of CC is still a LHR based Captain with CX now. They also kept their DOJ with KA as the basis for their staff travel seniority.

There are many issues that KA have been stone walling. A workable RPA, proper medical and a liveable housing allowance for the standard contract to name a few. The staff travel debacle is the tipping point. Plus the last below inflation pay rises were sugar coated with the promise of improved staff travel.

The question for the KA pilots is. What's our response if we have been strung along for 2 years on a promise and then kicked in the teeth? I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.
giggerty is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 12:53
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some very amusing posts from you guys.

Keep it up while I get some more popcorn.

Face up to it, you ain't getting Pri25 on DOJ and that you can take to the bank.

IMHO.
ACMS is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 13:24
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: hongkers
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not so much amusing. Just information.

Thanks. I wish you well too
giggerty is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 15:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sector C
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Meanwhile CX crew get Y class with no upgrade on KA because they are viewed by the airline as seperate airlines, however KA get J on CX.
Eyes only is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2015, 15:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In a Bar
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wasn't that changed along with our 'upgraded' coffee?
Jn14:6 is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2015, 01:34
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Stralia
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
By ACMS post 16

Nope Weary, this promise of Pri25 based on your DOJ was offered during private talks without informing any CX employee, it should not have be offered in the first place and maybe that's why CX haven't given it to you yet.

Why would personnel or management "inform any CX employee" of a change that they may make to another groups benefits. ? Is that something CX normally go out of their way to do ? or do they just do it ?


And another one from ACMS

Face up to it, you ain't getting Pri25 on DOJ and that you can take to the bank.

IMHO.

I love watching the stamping of feet and assured table thumping by ACMS and then the little "IMHO" at the end ...

Not quite sure are you ?
Don Quixote is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.