taxi officer?
Join Date: Feb 1999
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The difference between Haddon Cave and The Trainers Letter is ownership. Former is CX/swire, latter is now public record.
Recall, only choice portions of HC were released. When and if an event/incident (please no!), occurs then the shredding machines and defrag utilities will be running hot. However, like the 49ers it's inevtiable; what turns up from a disgruntled employee/manager at later dates may become of some concern too our current directors and managers.
Could RH become the fly in the ointment, ala wilkinsons sword. Oh the irony of it all.
Recall, only choice portions of HC were released. When and if an event/incident (please no!), occurs then the shredding machines and defrag utilities will be running hot. However, like the 49ers it's inevtiable; what turns up from a disgruntled employee/manager at later dates may become of some concern too our current directors and managers.
Could RH become the fly in the ointment, ala wilkinsons sword. Oh the irony of it all.
Join Date: May 2008
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My sincere gratitude to those who did the right thing and had the courage to do so.
Unlike in the past, stuff like this can't be ignored in the information age. Whether it's this or ANYTHING else, it stays on record somewhere forever and isn't all that hard to get to by anyone anywhere. Shredders do little anymore; no matter what it is if the stuff's written down it's out there somewhere.
There are significant differences in how the sins of omission vice comission are weighted; at least in the court of pulbic opinion and real courts and regulatory bodies everywhere. If you know bank robbery is a crime and continue to do it it's worse than if you didn't and didn't.
So's a head in the sand approach would be fraught with peril and no one is too daft not to understand that.
Unlike in the past, stuff like this can't be ignored in the information age. Whether it's this or ANYTHING else, it stays on record somewhere forever and isn't all that hard to get to by anyone anywhere. Shredders do little anymore; no matter what it is if the stuff's written down it's out there somewhere.
There are significant differences in how the sins of omission vice comission are weighted; at least in the court of pulbic opinion and real courts and regulatory bodies everywhere. If you know bank robbery is a crime and continue to do it it's worse than if you didn't and didn't.
So's a head in the sand approach would be fraught with peril and no one is too daft not to understand that.
Hopefully the SCMP will somehow get to know of the internal strife in CX which could adversely affect passenger safety. Trainers and Checkers are, by definition, Cathay Pacific Airways Management.
Join Date: May 2009
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So what are all the T&C's going to do next after shes DOES NOTHING ?
Apply for STC and BTC positions.
Sell their soul to the she-devil for A350 training posts.
Continue as check and trainers on a base as a sweetener.
Then complain to me what a tough life they have writing reports until 2am.
Apply for STC and BTC positions.
Sell their soul to the she-devil for A350 training posts.
Continue as check and trainers on a base as a sweetener.
Then complain to me what a tough life they have writing reports until 2am.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Goat head. Wtf is wrong with you ? Go ahead and mock. I'm sure that your assistance towards management is appreciated. Let's wait and see how this plays out. In the meantime, try being constrictive for once. Jeez...it's hard enough fighting the management around here without this extra unnecessary crap. 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Trafalagar
Just pointing out the very obvious
Too many T&C's dont have the b#lls
Let alone the gumption to fail some of the line crew that shouldn't be online to begin with
Too much fear from above
Look at our fellow pilots on the LON OZ and KIWI base jumping over themselves to go training
Its all over
Just pointing out the very obvious
Too many T&C's dont have the b#lls
Let alone the gumption to fail some of the line crew that shouldn't be online to begin with
Too much fear from above
Look at our fellow pilots on the LON OZ and KIWI base jumping over themselves to go training
Its all over
Join Date: May 2009
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I'm with the Goat on this one.
If a bunch of flagship flights are being cancelled without anyone giving a tom tit, what is a letter going to do?
Maybe this just goes to show the arrogance of the C&T clowns who think with one letter they can influence a change that 20 years of on/off CC, and union negotiations have never achieved.
Sadly a mere acknowledgement from AT is all the letter warrants.
If a bunch of flagship flights are being cancelled without anyone giving a tom tit, what is a letter going to do?
Maybe this just goes to show the arrogance of the C&T clowns who think with one letter they can influence a change that 20 years of on/off CC, and union negotiations have never achieved.
Sadly a mere acknowledgement from AT is all the letter warrants.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Firstly, I'm not a trainer. There's a ban on taking new training positions. There is not a call for Trainers to resign. If you want to change the above, propose a motion. Failing that, have you lot spitting Bile and Vitriol at the guys who trained you taken any action yourselves? Signed your name to anything? Risked anything? Hmmm - thought not. Go find an airline where the guys train themselves, Aaaah ..... problem. 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Firstly, nice work for at least having the guts to voice the concerns in writing. However I am finding it hard to reconcile that if these guys are so concerned about the standards and the system in place, then why are they still a part of it?
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Well, that's just it! Will "they" have the courage to resign en masse? I know I wouldn't want my name on many of these licenses or even training reports. Combine increasing fatigue with the VERY low experience levels, the recipe for disaster is in place. I think I'll be holding off from that training position with or without the HKAOA training ban.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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CXorcist: Maybe I'm wrong but your
implies you think they should?
Is this because it would help YOUR goals? Or because they should be wholly ashamed of being Management Lackeys, (HELL NO that is not my view BTW), or because you would then welcome them back into the fold as Brothers in Arms despite the fact that thus far they are the only group who have gone above and beyond CC?
Maybe you and likeminded souls should for any of the above or other similar reasons "have the courage to resign En Masse" from the Airline? It would help me with my goals, help you with your shame at working for CX, and I'd be happy to buy you a beer - brother - as you applied for other jobs. Nothing personal to you in particular, I'm just sick of anonymous hypocrisy and attacks on people who are demonstrably attempting to act as responsible "Brothers"
Will "They" have the courage to resign En Masse
Is this because it would help YOUR goals? Or because they should be wholly ashamed of being Management Lackeys, (HELL NO that is not my view BTW), or because you would then welcome them back into the fold as Brothers in Arms despite the fact that thus far they are the only group who have gone above and beyond CC?
Maybe you and likeminded souls should for any of the above or other similar reasons "have the courage to resign En Masse" from the Airline? It would help me with my goals, help you with your shame at working for CX, and I'd be happy to buy you a beer - brother - as you applied for other jobs. Nothing personal to you in particular, I'm just sick of anonymous hypocrisy and attacks on people who are demonstrably attempting to act as responsible "Brothers"
Join Date: Aug 2008
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White None,
Have you read the letter? I have. If there is no threat of follow up action, then there is no point in writing or signing the letter. Either you think safety is compromised at CX as a result of a fatigue and inexperience nexus or you don't. If those whom signed the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign? It's like Yammer. The words are all well and good; but if you're not willing to do anything about it, it's really just a waste of time.
Taken a step further, a line captain can ensure safety on his/her particular flights by assessing his/her own fatigue, enquiring about that of the crew, and ensuring the alertness levels are sufficient to offset any inexperience or recency concerns. A C&Ter has no such ability. They either sign the license or not. Once signed to the line, the C&Ter has no control over what happens. If s/he truly believes we are in danger (I believe we are), then s/he should be unwilling to sign the licenses. Since that goes with the territory of being a C&Ter, then s/he should resign from training. The math is pretty simple in my mind.
I'm not writing this from an industrial stance, but from the opinion that we will have an accident before long. It is very likely that some combination of fatigue and crew experience will be causal. We are rapidly devolving into an airline with cockpit experience no different than that of China Airlines or Asiana. I think that is a poor choice by management. CX has always been a first world, western airline based in Hong Kong. I believe there is value in that, but it's changing.
Have you read the letter? I have. If there is no threat of follow up action, then there is no point in writing or signing the letter. Either you think safety is compromised at CX as a result of a fatigue and inexperience nexus or you don't. If those whom signed the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign? It's like Yammer. The words are all well and good; but if you're not willing to do anything about it, it's really just a waste of time.
Taken a step further, a line captain can ensure safety on his/her particular flights by assessing his/her own fatigue, enquiring about that of the crew, and ensuring the alertness levels are sufficient to offset any inexperience or recency concerns. A C&Ter has no such ability. They either sign the license or not. Once signed to the line, the C&Ter has no control over what happens. If s/he truly believes we are in danger (I believe we are), then s/he should be unwilling to sign the licenses. Since that goes with the territory of being a C&Ter, then s/he should resign from training. The math is pretty simple in my mind.
I'm not writing this from an industrial stance, but from the opinion that we will have an accident before long. It is very likely that some combination of fatigue and crew experience will be causal. We are rapidly devolving into an airline with cockpit experience no different than that of China Airlines or Asiana. I think that is a poor choice by management. CX has always been a first world, western airline based in Hong Kong. I believe there is value in that, but it's changing.
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Cxorcist - Yes I have read the letter.
Let's be analytical and logical about YOUR comments and response.
You contend that, if
By that logic - of yours - should it not follow that:-
. if those who READ the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign?
So now we arrive at a fork in the process. You, personally either:-
. a) Disagree with the letter, in which case what HAVE you been banging on about in the past? ... Or
. b) Agree with the letter, in which case, when's your leaving bash?
Let's be analytical and logical about YOUR comments and response.
You contend that, if
those whom signed the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign?
. if those who READ the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign?
So now we arrive at a fork in the process. You, personally either:-
. a) Disagree with the letter, in which case what HAVE you been banging on about in the past? ... Or
. b) Agree with the letter, in which case, when's your leaving bash?
Join Date: Aug 2008
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WN,
I guess you are much smarter than me because I don't follow.
Are you saying I should leave because the airline is verging on unsafe?
I am a line pilot. I am not responsible for the safety of flights other than those I crew. I can and do ensure a safe operation on my flights. If I can't do that, I book off. C&Ters cannot do the same, but they are responsible at least in part. No?
So why are C&Ters resignations from training comparable to my resignation from the Company? I'm beyond confused as how you arrive at that.
Maybe you should switch to decaf. I think you've lost the plot.
I guess you are much smarter than me because I don't follow.
Are you saying I should leave because the airline is verging on unsafe?
I am a line pilot. I am not responsible for the safety of flights other than those I crew. I can and do ensure a safe operation on my flights. If I can't do that, I book off. C&Ters cannot do the same, but they are responsible at least in part. No?
So why are C&Ters resignations from training comparable to my resignation from the Company? I'm beyond confused as how you arrive at that.
Maybe you should switch to decaf. I think you've lost the plot.
