3 man to Europe
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If you want to realise how good CX has got it you only have to see what HSBC is doing, moving its headquarters to Hong Kong, where it can avoid those pesky first world regulations and fines and be totally unscrupulous just like CX.
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 47
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Surely you mean we got to rest a lot more?
A 48 hr layover arriving at the same time, maybe sleep for a bit longer on arrival, get up go into town, have a meal and a few drinks, go to sleep and wake up when you wake up, next day is yours. Go do stuff, stay busy, visit friends or family, get an early night that is now more normal due to already being on that time zone for 30hrs.
Of course you get more rest but you also get more time to do things, it is about being able to actually plan your rest rather than having to try to force sleep and wake ups on a 24hr layover.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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We're not machines....our rosters have reached saturation....they have been manipulated over time so that, these days, all we do is fly, min-rest, fly, min-rest, fly!
Having 48 hours off duty following a long haul pattern should be a no brainer. It is for the cabin crew, it is for all the other first world carriers, why not us?
Following a long haul flight, the aim should not be on resting for 18 hours, reboard the airplane, fly another grueling long haul pattern home, and be quickly rostered to fly another trip! Most certainly not with only 3 pilots!!
We need hard protections built into the rostering practices. Recently, I flew a split duty pattern and was reminded, once again, by the cabin crew that they are obligated to receive a mandatory day off following the split duty. I guess we pilots must be immune to fatigue, so we're not entitled to this.
Why are there so many built in protections for the cabin crew rosters, and the other first world carriers, yet none, NONE, for the pilots at Cathay. Maybe someone could ask the president of IATA this question?
Over time, our good nature (and naiveté on the part of our union) has given way to the removal of virtually all the previously built in protections....these protections used to exist, iron clad, in our rostering practices. This is madness and needs correcting.
Having 48 hours off duty following a long haul pattern should be a no brainer. It is for the cabin crew, it is for all the other first world carriers, why not us?
Following a long haul flight, the aim should not be on resting for 18 hours, reboard the airplane, fly another grueling long haul pattern home, and be quickly rostered to fly another trip! Most certainly not with only 3 pilots!!
We need hard protections built into the rostering practices. Recently, I flew a split duty pattern and was reminded, once again, by the cabin crew that they are obligated to receive a mandatory day off following the split duty. I guess we pilots must be immune to fatigue, so we're not entitled to this.
Why are there so many built in protections for the cabin crew rosters, and the other first world carriers, yet none, NONE, for the pilots at Cathay. Maybe someone could ask the president of IATA this question?
Over time, our good nature (and naiveté on the part of our union) has given way to the removal of virtually all the previously built in protections....these protections used to exist, iron clad, in our rostering practices. This is madness and needs correcting.
Join Date: May 2004
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Why are there so many built in protections for the cabin crew rosters, and the other first world carriers, yet none, NONE, for the pilots at Cathay. Maybe someone could ask the president of IATA this question?
Management needs to be woken up, but this will only happen when we have shown them it is the only option by being united and strong. And we can't just keep the current industrial climate until we achieve our goals, otherwise we will find ourselves in the same place 10 years from now having the same conversation. We must maintain that respect throughout to prevent the constant rot from creeping in.
Any fight you step away from makes them stronger. That is why the cabin crew achieved their most recent goals in LESS THAN A WEEK, and why we are suffering crawling territory back - they are too accustomed to us cowering away from fights. The cabin crew put up a fight and they bring in a lot of muscle.
So time to start doing everything you can to help. Don't wait for the AOA to ask you. Sit back and do your job, and only your job. Use your super jokers liberally, and make sure you follow all Part A regs. It is that easy.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Rest periods
Sloppy Joe Quote :-"You get to LHR at 6am on a 24hr layover"
I seem to remember that rostering practices used to state that rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours were to be avoided whenever possible.
It didn't work on the Classic freighters 15 years ago!
I seem to remember that rostering practices used to state that rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours were to be avoided whenever possible.
It didn't work on the Classic freighters 15 years ago!
Join Date: May 2009
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If it is not a hard rule it will not be followed if it costs more. Think there are 4 flights a day to SYD, every one of those has a layover in the 18-30hr range.
The rule (if you can call it that) is still there, written in the same language that they ignore.
The rule (if you can call it that) is still there, written in the same language that they ignore.
Think there are 4 flights a day to SYD, every one of those has a layover in the 18-30hr range.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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7.1.3.4. Factors to be considered when assigning Duties will include: [omissis]
B. Avoiding scheduling Rest Periods of between 18 and 30 hours duration except when rest is physiologically based
B. Avoiding scheduling Rest Periods of between 18 and 30 hours duration except when rest is physiologically based
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Chaps
The 18-30hr rest was an extract from UK CAP371 and aimed at UK airlines operating UK-Florida-UK day/night rotations. Likewise Airlines also ignored it. It could be argued that it was aimed at switching from nights to lates to earlies or vv but that was a consequence of the limitations of CAP371 not sensible rostering.
There is an argument that 18-30 night / day rotations are more manageable as highlighted by Sloopy Joe's earlier post. No one doubt's the Night rotation is tough but the day rotation allows Pilots to commence the recovery in the Companies time rather than there own.
The current plight for you Pilots (either of high or low morale) is that a lot of airlines are using the Boeing Alertness Model to check roster fatigue levels. It's well known that this is a "one size fits all" application and not airline specific. Each airline as we know is individually different in many ways. The other issue is Crewing Staff (love them or hate them) are now moving towards "I.T. systems Officers" where black is black and white is white and there is no grey (or perhaps even Red, Green or Orange if its a yes or a no)
You only have to look at Middle Eastern Airlines now - most require University degree's to get into the job, someone with a degree in common sense or a University of Life has no chance (I appreciate this might be Government driven also)
That might have been a rant, I should have been a Pilot.....
The 18-30hr rest was an extract from UK CAP371 and aimed at UK airlines operating UK-Florida-UK day/night rotations. Likewise Airlines also ignored it. It could be argued that it was aimed at switching from nights to lates to earlies or vv but that was a consequence of the limitations of CAP371 not sensible rostering.
There is an argument that 18-30 night / day rotations are more manageable as highlighted by Sloopy Joe's earlier post. No one doubt's the Night rotation is tough but the day rotation allows Pilots to commence the recovery in the Companies time rather than there own.
The current plight for you Pilots (either of high or low morale) is that a lot of airlines are using the Boeing Alertness Model to check roster fatigue levels. It's well known that this is a "one size fits all" application and not airline specific. Each airline as we know is individually different in many ways. The other issue is Crewing Staff (love them or hate them) are now moving towards "I.T. systems Officers" where black is black and white is white and there is no grey (or perhaps even Red, Green or Orange if its a yes or a no)
You only have to look at Middle Eastern Airlines now - most require University degree's to get into the job, someone with a degree in common sense or a University of Life has no chance (I appreciate this might be Government driven also)
That might have been a rant, I should have been a Pilot.....
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Requests/ Lifestyle Requests
The company proposals are not worth the paper it's written on.
The proposed RPs suggest Requests are in seniority order, yada yada yada... and Lifestyle will be satisfied in seniority order, yada yada yada...
but the company can throw in curve balls such that....
1. if in that month, you have a training event i.e. a random sim, rtpc, linecheck ground school, then your request could be ignored
2. if in that month, you have leave, and your productivity is below average, your request could be ignored
3. if in that month your dog has a birthday, your request could be ignored.
Completely farcical...
If they want an agreement, they have to nail down the language and make satisfying requests and lifestyle award based on SENIORITY ONLY with no other considerations.
The proposed RPs suggest Requests are in seniority order, yada yada yada... and Lifestyle will be satisfied in seniority order, yada yada yada...
but the company can throw in curve balls such that....
1. if in that month, you have a training event i.e. a random sim, rtpc, linecheck ground school, then your request could be ignored
2. if in that month, you have leave, and your productivity is below average, your request could be ignored
3. if in that month your dog has a birthday, your request could be ignored.
Completely farcical...
If they want an agreement, they have to nail down the language and make satisfying requests and lifestyle award based on SENIORITY ONLY with no other considerations.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2015
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AQIS
that's a bit harsh , some of the SOs that I have flown with have been very good Admittedly there are a few that aren't but that could apply to all ranks
Unfortunately there is no longer the passion for flying from a number of the Y generation that most of us had
Instead It has just become a job and the company is getting exactly what it's paying for
that's a bit harsh , some of the SOs that I have flown with have been very good Admittedly there are a few that aren't but that could apply to all ranks
Unfortunately there is no longer the passion for flying from a number of the Y generation that most of us had
Instead It has just become a job and the company is getting exactly what it's paying for
