Pay negotiations concluded
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Iceman
If we goof around with the ball the chances are we are going to have a dropped catch.
All I'm saying is that without a new CC motion passed before this pay deal gets voted through we are going to have more than a dropped catch, folks need to realise that. So I'll wait and see and vote accordingly.We are playing with proven world champions here , not a bunch of amateurs, this lot have every inconceivable trick up there sleeve and if you think otherwise you are completely naive .
If you have faith with the NC then good on , but history says otherwise.
If we goof around with the ball the chances are we are going to have a dropped catch.
All I'm saying is that without a new CC motion passed before this pay deal gets voted through we are going to have more than a dropped catch, folks need to realise that. So I'll wait and see and vote accordingly.We are playing with proven world champions here , not a bunch of amateurs, this lot have every inconceivable trick up there sleeve and if you think otherwise you are completely naive .
If you have faith with the NC then good on , but history says otherwise.
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All you people planning to vote down the pay deal again: how effective do you think contract compliance is going to be once RPs have been cancelled, three man long haul is imposed and the company is essentially free to do as they like to introduce measures to make cc ineffective? Shooting ourselves in the foot, once again - as it is all cc has achieved is a negligible salary increase, while giving the company a perfect excuse to ram through huge productivity concessions uncontested - I say take the money and continue to withhold goodwill anyway.
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Simple solution: Vote for tha pay deal and take the money. "suspend" CC....and continue to do EXACTLY what we've been doing now for months. Best of both worlds. CC forever OR until the company comes to their senses and fixes all these profoundly unsatisfactory issues.
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I did not vote for cc for anything beyond pay. To keep it going after a pay deal is reached is abuse of the membership vote.
That's not going to happen.
The AOA can feel free to give us a vote to continue cc. I'm fine with that, that's democracy.
If we stay in cc, AT can hide behind the notion that we are just impossible to work with and that we don't keep our word. Which would be true.
If we get out of cc, the burden would be on AT to make this work, and it would reflect badly on her if we went back into cc due to negotiations with her.
More pressure on AT to give us what we want in the next round.
The difference between strategic and tactical. Let's fight to win.
That's not going to happen.
The AOA can feel free to give us a vote to continue cc. I'm fine with that, that's democracy.
If we stay in cc, AT can hide behind the notion that we are just impossible to work with and that we don't keep our word. Which would be true.
If we get out of cc, the burden would be on AT to make this work, and it would reflect badly on her if we went back into cc due to negotiations with her.
More pressure on AT to give us what we want in the next round.
The difference between strategic and tactical. Let's fight to win.
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Well put Oasis; we can only demonstrate the effectiveness of CC by coming out of it. Eventually some degree of "battle " fatigue (for want of a better phrase) will set in with the troops anyway. And as you say it gives AT a chance to demonstrate she can work worth us, or not. Just remaining in cc ad infinitum for every conceivable gripe weakens it's effectiveness, and as has been stated a return to it for the next phase is easily tabled and voted on. And gives us the moral high ground to boot.
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Rhein, Oasis, again I disagree. Giving up CC will relax pressure, will give time to negate the effects (CC takes time to work and is a cumulative deal) as we move into the summer travel season, and indicate modifying and ignoring (and in fact complete abandonment) of the RPs is acceptable. The company knows full well the effects of CC; no need to come out of it to tell them something they already know.
An acceptance of the TA and a vote to remain in CC until RPs are satisfactorily addressed will send the message that yes we are willing to work with you, but what you have done with rostering since January (and even before) is unacceptable and needs to be fixed. While maintaining pressure to actually do something.
The only "moral high ground" coming out of CC allows for is effectively stating "it's OK with us if you screw us on rostering." This isn't exactly a moral high ground; it's accepting the unacceptable. Like a wife telling her husband "it's OK--you really didn't beat me that hard and I deserved it because I burned the toast."
Don't forget, little was accomplished in the year prior to going into CC, and we were forced into it by a bad deal. We needed it to get this far, and we need it to force any form of real negotiation.
An acceptance of the TA and a vote to remain in CC until RPs are satisfactorily addressed will send the message that yes we are willing to work with you, but what you have done with rostering since January (and even before) is unacceptable and needs to be fixed. While maintaining pressure to actually do something.
The only "moral high ground" coming out of CC allows for is effectively stating "it's OK with us if you screw us on rostering." This isn't exactly a moral high ground; it's accepting the unacceptable. Like a wife telling her husband "it's OK--you really didn't beat me that hard and I deserved it because I burned the toast."
Don't forget, little was accomplished in the year prior to going into CC, and we were forced into it by a bad deal. We needed it to get this far, and we need it to force any form of real negotiation.
Last edited by Shep69; 8th May 2015 at 03:24.
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Shep69
It would HAVE to be another vote for further CC, not a problem with that, assuming that the GFBA has been complied with.
However, the impasse in RP's seems to be that the AOA went in asking for something that the membership were not asking for, an american style of rostering and hourly duty pay. They did not have a mandate for that apart from a very poorly worded survey to possibly give the result wanted. We need LESS of our salary attached to HDP NOT more. The company cancelling the RP's were within its rights the same as the AOA could have cancelled them.
It would HAVE to be another vote for further CC, not a problem with that, assuming that the GFBA has been complied with.
However, the impasse in RP's seems to be that the AOA went in asking for something that the membership were not asking for, an american style of rostering and hourly duty pay. They did not have a mandate for that apart from a very poorly worded survey to possibly give the result wanted. We need LESS of our salary attached to HDP NOT more. The company cancelling the RP's were within its rights the same as the AOA could have cancelled them.
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Coming out of CC or not immediately going back in to CC with maximum a months break would be akin to sending the goalkeeper off and playing 10 man
There is a risk they will score a goal or two or three and we will only have ourselves to blame ..... We are negotiating with a dogged party called SWIRE
Who are hellbent on winning at all costs and some of you need to wise up pronto
Or learn the hardway AGAIN
There is a risk they will score a goal or two or three and we will only have ourselves to blame ..... We are negotiating with a dogged party called SWIRE
Who are hellbent on winning at all costs and some of you need to wise up pronto
Or learn the hardway AGAIN
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Okay for all those who haven't been here that long , some history , we voted down a pay rise a number of years ago because it wasn't enough
Guess what we never did get it .
A pay rise is on the table , it's nowhere close to being enough but it looks like it's the best we are going to get for now
SO TAKE IT and BANK THE MONEY .
They don't play fair with us so we are under no obligation to be honorable either remember that this pay rise was arbitrarily given to everyone else in the company we had to fight for it WHY ?
So take the offer we can always do exactly what the company does ,change the conditions when it suits them
Guess what we never did get it .
A pay rise is on the table , it's nowhere close to being enough but it looks like it's the best we are going to get for now
SO TAKE IT and BANK THE MONEY .
They don't play fair with us so we are under no obligation to be honorable either remember that this pay rise was arbitrarily given to everyone else in the company we had to fight for it WHY ?
So take the offer we can always do exactly what the company does ,change the conditions when it suits them
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Blowback
Your missing the point here
Short sightedness and short term greed has cost this pilot group dearly over the years
What is the rush to negotiate a fair pay deal same as everyone else ?? What about our payrise 2013 ? What is your rush
What's more important , a good set of Rp's or a sh#t unfair payrise?
Your missing the point here
Short sightedness and short term greed has cost this pilot group dearly over the years
What is the rush to negotiate a fair pay deal same as everyone else ?? What about our payrise 2013 ? What is your rush
What's more important , a good set of Rp's or a sh#t unfair payrise?
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Curtain rod and goathead I agree with your sentiments , and accept your argument and point of view .But ,unless you are prepared to crack a few heads of those that refuse to comply with CC ,the full effect will never be felt as it should .
So whilst you say I'm not going to agree to the pay rise .
Let's play Devils advocate here . 4.5% is up for grabs . You all say NO WAY . So the company simply shrugs their shoulders and says well We offered !
the crew didn't want the increase so we won't force them to take it .
What then? you turned down an increase in the hope of securing a better deal
There are just too many self centered individuals in this company who would crawl over broken glass if they thought that it would give them an advantage to make CC truly effective .
So whilst I'm not happy with the offer . Personally I think it's derisory, are you prepared to turn it down in the hope of getting more ? If the pilot body was truly United and we could really make CC exceedingly painful , then yes reject it . But as I said, there are far too many self centered individuals who are undermining CC on a daily basis
Hence my suggestion grab what you can now , who says we have to come out of CC . The vote was CC until we get a decent pay rise . We got a pay rise ,it isn't decent . So take the offer and continue with CC . There is no requirement to take a moral high ground here ,the company has never negotiated in good faith so why do we have to ?
So whilst you say I'm not going to agree to the pay rise .
Let's play Devils advocate here . 4.5% is up for grabs . You all say NO WAY . So the company simply shrugs their shoulders and says well We offered !
the crew didn't want the increase so we won't force them to take it .
What then? you turned down an increase in the hope of securing a better deal
There are just too many self centered individuals in this company who would crawl over broken glass if they thought that it would give them an advantage to make CC truly effective .
So whilst I'm not happy with the offer . Personally I think it's derisory, are you prepared to turn it down in the hope of getting more ? If the pilot body was truly United and we could really make CC exceedingly painful , then yes reject it . But as I said, there are far too many self centered individuals who are undermining CC on a daily basis
Hence my suggestion grab what you can now , who says we have to come out of CC . The vote was CC until we get a decent pay rise . We got a pay rise ,it isn't decent . So take the offer and continue with CC . There is no requirement to take a moral high ground here ,the company has never negotiated in good faith so why do we have to ?
Last edited by Blowback; 9th May 2015 at 14:32.
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Just pulled out the old 1999 pay scales.
Assuming this TA is ratified, pay increases over the past 16 years will have amounted to an annual increase of 1.54% for a 10-year senior first officer. The gross pay has increased 25.7% since 1999.
What has inflation averaged annually over the past 16 years? 2.35%
Gross pay SHOULD have increased by 41.7% since 1999.
There's a shortage of qualified pilots, too, right?
Just sayin'...
Assuming this TA is ratified, pay increases over the past 16 years will have amounted to an annual increase of 1.54% for a 10-year senior first officer. The gross pay has increased 25.7% since 1999.
What has inflation averaged annually over the past 16 years? 2.35%
Gross pay SHOULD have increased by 41.7% since 1999.
There's a shortage of qualified pilots, too, right?
Just sayin'...
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Not hiding and silberfuchs have pretty much hit the nail on the head
If the membership wishes to vote this through then so be it
If the membership has had enough of CC and cant handle continuing with it because its too tough is and too much of a marathon as RF has said then thats it ,we might as well lay down and be trampled over like the wallies we deserve to be treated like
If the membership wishes to vote this through then so be it
If the membership has had enough of CC and cant handle continuing with it because its too tough is and too much of a marathon as RF has said then thats it ,we might as well lay down and be trampled over like the wallies we deserve to be treated like
How can CC be 'too hard to handle'? It's what you are paid for. That is all you are required to do for Cathay Pacific Airways. The rest of the time is your own to enjoy as you wish. That, surely, is the whole point.........
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. You are NOT working for your old military squadron, a charity, or a small family business.
You are S/O/F/O/CAPT Bloggs contracted to a ruthless group of bonus-driven businessmen on a three month rolling renewable basis. You are not part of a 'team'. You are a carbon-based revenue-producing unit. So you fly your contract, no more, no less.
What is so hard about CC?
You are S/O/F/O/CAPT Bloggs contracted to a ruthless group of bonus-driven businessmen on a three month rolling renewable basis. You are not part of a 'team'. You are a carbon-based revenue-producing unit. So you fly your contract, no more, no less.
What is so hard about CC?
Last edited by Captain Dart; 9th May 2015 at 09:02.
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We have to carefully and methodically 'educate' some of those amongst us who just either don't 'get it', or are so self centered that the long term interests of the whole are something they simply don't care about. Either way, once they are on that 'list', they will always be treated with 'special' care when I fly with them 
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Trafalgar ,
You are absolutely correct ,if everyone would apply CC correctly and with greater enthusiasm the effect would be far more pronounced
It only takes one to wilt, work on a G day and get a flight from A to B which would otherwise have to be cancelled due to a lack of crew.
Had this been the case we may well be looking at a higher figure than the offer currently on the table .
So the dilemma is take the offer on the table or throw it back and be like Oliver Twist "Please sir I want more " But then you need everyone and I do mean everyone to partake to make it sufficiently painful to force the company back into further talks
You are absolutely correct ,if everyone would apply CC correctly and with greater enthusiasm the effect would be far more pronounced
It only takes one to wilt, work on a G day and get a flight from A to B which would otherwise have to be cancelled due to a lack of crew.
Had this been the case we may well be looking at a higher figure than the offer currently on the table .
So the dilemma is take the offer on the table or throw it back and be like Oliver Twist "Please sir I want more " But then you need everyone and I do mean everyone to partake to make it sufficiently painful to force the company back into further talks
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According to the GMAs memo (yes, I know!) but the negotiations covered only what other airlines get paid (a healthy debate we are told)
I don't care what EK, AA or Ethiopean make.
It's irrelevant data used as a smokescreen.
The only issue is CoL in HK....that's it!!
We are being paid far far less than inflation.
Why are we negotiating over totally moot points?
I don't care what EK, AA or Ethiopean make.
It's irrelevant data used as a smokescreen.
The only issue is CoL in HK....that's it!!
We are being paid far far less than inflation.
Why are we negotiating over totally moot points?
only applicable to hkg based crew. Which is why US and EU pilots need their own AOA thus being able to vote for pay free from disgruntled, sometimes rightly so, other CX jurisdictions.
Cheers,
Soda