CX Pilot arrested at Heathrow for possession of knives
Banned Items at LHR include:
Sharp items
This includes knives (with blades over 6cm), razor blades, box cutters, scissors (with blades over 6cm from fulcrum), axes, hatchets, cleavers, ice axes, ice picks, swords, sabres and sharp or pointed martial arts equipment
Heathrow: Hand baggage and liquids | Cabin luggage screening at Heathrow
Sharp items
This includes knives (with blades over 6cm), razor blades, box cutters, scissors (with blades over 6cm from fulcrum), axes, hatchets, cleavers, ice axes, ice picks, swords, sabres and sharp or pointed martial arts equipment
Heathrow: Hand baggage and liquids | Cabin luggage screening at Heathrow
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LHR
I flown over a great deal of the world as a longhaul Captain.
Heathrow security at the staff gates are the worst I have ever had the misfortune to meet, and by a large margin. TSA in the USA and particularly New York are supposed to be bad, in my experience they were helpful and flexible compared to LHR imbeciles.
Small minded, petty, anti crew, obstructive, unable to think for themselves.
TSA in the USA and particularly New York are supposed to be bad, in my experience they were helpful and flexible compared to LHR imbeciles.
This is not a UK law thing as Manchester security were also fine, just working colleagues trying to achieve the same end goal as us.
They managed to annoy me on many occasions, this reduced my performance on the subsequent flights and created a far greater hazard than the heinous threat posed by my 20 gramme tube of eye ointment.
If anyone is interested on the effect of a pre flight argument on a Pilot, look for Captain Stanley Key and the BA Trident crash.
Sack them and hire some adults with brains!
Heathrow security at the staff gates are the worst I have ever had the misfortune to meet, and by a large margin. TSA in the USA and particularly New York are supposed to be bad, in my experience they were helpful and flexible compared to LHR imbeciles.
Small minded, petty, anti crew, obstructive, unable to think for themselves.
TSA in the USA and particularly New York are supposed to be bad, in my experience they were helpful and flexible compared to LHR imbeciles.
This is not a UK law thing as Manchester security were also fine, just working colleagues trying to achieve the same end goal as us.
They managed to annoy me on many occasions, this reduced my performance on the subsequent flights and created a far greater hazard than the heinous threat posed by my 20 gramme tube of eye ointment.
If anyone is interested on the effect of a pre flight argument on a Pilot, look for Captain Stanley Key and the BA Trident crash.
Sack them and hire some adults with brains!
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StP
Like everyone else here, I'm not in a position to offer a comment of any value. The information currently available is far too limited to do so.
I have no idea whether the circumstances were such that it was reasonable/unreasonable of security to involve the police, nor whether it was reasonable/unreasonable of the police who attended to arrest the pilot.
By way of general comment only -
It is an unfortunate fact of life that some people use common sense when given power and some don't. Time will tell whether that is relevant here.
Is that unreasonable?
As a passenger, I readily understand why some airline pilots feel indignant about security procedures.
I would be entirely content with the pilots being treated differently from me - whether officially by different rules or by discretion being exercised.
That would include being allowed to take items on board which I, as a passenger, am not. eg Pilots have access to a crash axe whereas passengers do not. Seems reasonable to me.
I work on the basis that the pilots are as keen to arrive safely at our destination as I am. In the statistically extremely unlikely event that one or more of them isn't, then they don't need a knife or nail-clippers to spoil my day.
Whether he should have been arrested or not is perhaps a matter that Flying Lawyer would like to comment on?
I have no idea whether the circumstances were such that it was reasonable/unreasonable of security to involve the police, nor whether it was reasonable/unreasonable of the police who attended to arrest the pilot.
By way of general comment only -
It is an unfortunate fact of life that some people use common sense when given power and some don't. Time will tell whether that is relevant here.
My original point was the apparent inconsistency that some have with their points of view depending on who we're dealing with, that's all.
As a passenger, I readily understand why some airline pilots feel indignant about security procedures.
I would be entirely content with the pilots being treated differently from me - whether officially by different rules or by discretion being exercised.
That would include being allowed to take items on board which I, as a passenger, am not. eg Pilots have access to a crash axe whereas passengers do not. Seems reasonable to me.
I work on the basis that the pilots are as keen to arrive safely at our destination as I am. In the statistically extremely unlikely event that one or more of them isn't, then they don't need a knife or nail-clippers to spoil my day.
How about this as an answer
"I am the commander of this flight and responsible for what is loaded fuel, food, passengers cargo etc, so take them off me, place in the cargo, then as commander of the aircraft I will authorise its transfer to the flight deck when airside or do it myself"
BTW (Commander) as non UK citizen I am not aware of the laws of your country, I have bought them in good faith.
The UK law states "or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person"
I await the CPS decision as to whether a charge is suitable in the public interest.
"I am the commander of this flight and responsible for what is loaded fuel, food, passengers cargo etc, so take them off me, place in the cargo, then as commander of the aircraft I will authorise its transfer to the flight deck when airside or do it myself"
BTW (Commander) as non UK citizen I am not aware of the laws of your country, I have bought them in good faith.
The UK law states "or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person"
I await the CPS decision as to whether a charge is suitable in the public interest.
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I would be entirely content with the pilots being treated differently from me - whether officially by different rules or by discretion being exercised.
In summer, he plays football (an officially santioned tournament) on the grass 100m from the runway, with the airport police, the firefighters, and all the good guys (no, the "security" have never been invited), followed by a barbecue party. Nice world, I envy him. And yes, he could hide a lot of things in that mail that gets loaded into the aircraft. Or steal something. But hey, he's doing his job, and trust is a powerful thing. I trust him, and think it's good he doesn't get annoyed by routine searches.
Last edited by deptrai; 20th Apr 2015 at 21:36.
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Spot on. Or how about the catering folks. Is EVERY soda can and wine bottle X-rayed to make sure it's soda and not something else ?
Special ops guys around the world make a living getting stuff into places it's hard to get stuff into. Not hard to imagine the same scenario with the folks who routinely bring stuff to the airplane.
So's methinks this is taking the illusion a bit too far. Unless they came upon some type of really unbalanced chap; but all kidding aside I don't know anyone I'd put into that category.
Special ops guys around the world make a living getting stuff into places it's hard to get stuff into. Not hard to imagine the same scenario with the folks who routinely bring stuff to the airplane.
So's methinks this is taking the illusion a bit too far. Unless they came upon some type of really unbalanced chap; but all kidding aside I don't know anyone I'd put into that category.
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Missed my knife
We were in Greece last month. Flying from Athens to Santorini my wife lost her Swiss Army knife to security. I had my knife in my pocket. 3 1/2 inch 3 blade. (both had forgotten to put in checked baggage) I made it thru and I was wand scanned because I set off the alarm. (metal on suspenders) they still missed the knife. I guess eye's saw metal on suspenders and didn't think twice when wand buzzer went off.
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Those pointing out this has nothing to do with aviation security are largely correct; he would have been arrested if he had been stopped and searched by plod on Oxford Street; it just so happens it was a crew search at LHR instead. It wouldn't have made any difference if it was a pax search. It wouldn't have made any difference if they were found in checked bags. The possible offence is simple possession.
I think he may have a very strong defence. If you carry knives on Oxford Street, as others have pointed out, you need a 'reasonable excuse'; you need them for your work, you're off on a fishing trip, or something. If you carry them at LHR, about to board a flight, the excuse is bloody obvious - you're taking them out of the country! I'm sure Flying Lawyer would be able to advise us.
My stupidest security story? A few years ago I was pax out of JFK. TSA confiscated a tiny - 3" long, weighed a couple of ounces - adjustable spanner. When asked why, they looked puzzled, were obviously trying to think up an explanation, then one of them blurted out: "you could MAKE something with it!"...
I think he may have a very strong defence. If you carry knives on Oxford Street, as others have pointed out, you need a 'reasonable excuse'; you need them for your work, you're off on a fishing trip, or something. If you carry them at LHR, about to board a flight, the excuse is bloody obvious - you're taking them out of the country! I'm sure Flying Lawyer would be able to advise us.
My stupidest security story? A few years ago I was pax out of JFK. TSA confiscated a tiny - 3" long, weighed a couple of ounces - adjustable spanner. When asked why, they looked puzzled, were obviously trying to think up an explanation, then one of them blurted out: "you could MAKE something with it!"...
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Shep69
Or, more likely, just for example (given his age), a long-serving captain who has passed through LHR security many times over many years either without previously encountering any problems when carrying the same item(s), or perhaps made an honest mistake on this occasion.
Ranger One
Would he?
How are you in a position to say that?
The only advice I'd give is:
(1) Wait for the facts to emerge.
It may then be possible to express an opinion about why this incident, involving a 61 year old airline pilot about to board his flight, resulted in an arrest.
(2) Don't attach any weight to what is said by posters playing barrack-room lawyers.
FL
Unless they came upon some type of really unbalanced chap; but all kidding aside I don't know anyone I'd put into that category.
Ranger One
he would have been arrested if he had been stopped and searched by plod on Oxford Street
How are you in a position to say that?
I'm sure Flying Lawyer would be able to advise us.
(1) Wait for the facts to emerge.
It may then be possible to express an opinion about why this incident, involving a 61 year old airline pilot about to board his flight, resulted in an arrest.
(2) Don't attach any weight to what is said by posters playing barrack-room lawyers.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 20th Apr 2015 at 23:37. Reason: Typos
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Not much experience with LHR, but another North London airport with security staff's obsession to make life miserable for people.
Once I kindly requested not to remove my watch from my wrist, they was not happy, but excepted it, as I told them I knew the watch would not set it of!
Of course, I was right, passed the security perfectly. However the assistant manager come over to me, and told me I should not refuse security staff request. I told him that under no circumstances did I want to remove my watch, as it was of high value!
I was happy to be scanned if it set of the alert.
Anyway then the ingenious security staff told me, I had to remove it because it was an electronic device! It had to be, for the watch to work.
I kindly declined, and told him the watch was not an electronic device, in fact it had no electronic components inside, as it was a mechanical device.
By now this assistant manager started to get really agitated and blowing himself up, so I nicely explained him, that this was a mechanical watch, and if he was not aware of that this was possible, maybe he should educate himself a little before make such statements.
By now he wanted on this basis to refuse me entry, took my passport and boarding pass away from me, at this moment his boss come over to him, and wanted to know what was going on.
During this whole process I had not even bothered to get agitated! However some sense was seen by his boss, and I was allowed to enter trough the security!
This is the same security guard who gave a lecture to crew because they did not have sealed bags for liquids, and forced us to pay £1 for a a bag to get trough security with our tooth-paste!
Once I kindly requested not to remove my watch from my wrist, they was not happy, but excepted it, as I told them I knew the watch would not set it of!
Of course, I was right, passed the security perfectly. However the assistant manager come over to me, and told me I should not refuse security staff request. I told him that under no circumstances did I want to remove my watch, as it was of high value!
I was happy to be scanned if it set of the alert.
Anyway then the ingenious security staff told me, I had to remove it because it was an electronic device! It had to be, for the watch to work.
I kindly declined, and told him the watch was not an electronic device, in fact it had no electronic components inside, as it was a mechanical device.
By now this assistant manager started to get really agitated and blowing himself up, so I nicely explained him, that this was a mechanical watch, and if he was not aware of that this was possible, maybe he should educate himself a little before make such statements.
By now he wanted on this basis to refuse me entry, took my passport and boarding pass away from me, at this moment his boss come over to him, and wanted to know what was going on.
During this whole process I had not even bothered to get agitated! However some sense was seen by his boss, and I was allowed to enter trough the security!
This is the same security guard who gave a lecture to crew because they did not have sealed bags for liquids, and forced us to pay £1 for a a bag to get trough security with our tooth-paste!
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We are checked in security for our own safety and that of our families.
Just like bank robbers are kidnapping families so staff will open a safe, we could be used to bring items airside to be handed to someone else.
A good example of staff taking things through was the gun smuggling case recently in Atlanta where staff were using lax security for their own gain.
http://m.ajc.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/atlanta-airport-boosting-security-following-gun-sm/njhxG/#__federated=1
For all we complain about Heathrow security, sterile should mean for all and include us, no matter how big our collective ego has become that we deem ourselves above checking.
Just like bank robbers are kidnapping families so staff will open a safe, we could be used to bring items airside to be handed to someone else.
A good example of staff taking things through was the gun smuggling case recently in Atlanta where staff were using lax security for their own gain.
http://m.ajc.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/atlanta-airport-boosting-security-following-gun-sm/njhxG/#__federated=1
For all we complain about Heathrow security, sterile should mean for all and include us, no matter how big our collective ego has become that we deem ourselves above checking.
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Wherever one stands on the rules, their application, potential use of discretion etc etc. I strongly suspect that most of us could accept most of it if the attitude of the enforcing MUPPETS!!!!! was not so entirely unnecessary, unjustifiable and apparently unquestionable. Higher authorities should be all over this, I'm sure they've been told many times. In a country desperate to be demonstrably equal opportunity, minority protecting, politically correct in the extreme, how come Airline Crews are allowed to be harassed, publically embarrassed, treated with disrespect with the threat of rapid escalation to even more invasive, delay producing procedures.
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Copenhagen, leaving aside this particular incident, LHR is a world in itself everyone based there could tell you hundreds of pure harassment, arrogance, incompetence stories.
I as an operating pilot in uniform, ID etc. wasn't allowed in the gate waiting room while all the rest of the staff was. Yes I have been bollocked for carrying an extra size, 25x20 instead of 20x20, clear plastic bag or a mini toothpaste tube or water OUT of the airport after arrival or...and I could go on forever. I have seen D. Cameron at the time just PM candidate beeing strip searched holding is shoes in his hand ! I have been kept waiting for a supervisor because the machine kept going off and half naked and annoyed I told them a screw in my wrist was the only metal I had on me ! And finally I had Osama Bin Laden in a white robe, flat, round taliban hat, white robe, military jacket, long beard checking my ID and this is not a joke I seriously thought he was him. LHR is a different class even from the most anal US airport right after 7/11. One extra little reason to make me move to a different base.
I as an operating pilot in uniform, ID etc. wasn't allowed in the gate waiting room while all the rest of the staff was. Yes I have been bollocked for carrying an extra size, 25x20 instead of 20x20, clear plastic bag or a mini toothpaste tube or water OUT of the airport after arrival or...and I could go on forever. I have seen D. Cameron at the time just PM candidate beeing strip searched holding is shoes in his hand ! I have been kept waiting for a supervisor because the machine kept going off and half naked and annoyed I told them a screw in my wrist was the only metal I had on me ! And finally I had Osama Bin Laden in a white robe, flat, round taliban hat, white robe, military jacket, long beard checking my ID and this is not a joke I seriously thought he was him. LHR is a different class even from the most anal US airport right after 7/11. One extra little reason to make me move to a different base.
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The indignations Steve is that Germanwings is the tip of the unspoken Elephant in the room...i.e. All the security checks in the world dont prevent deaths by a pilot who already has control of a deadly weapon. Its been an insulting joke for years....that coffee cant take that....even if you get coffee on board...cant take that golf club....but for the fire axe in the cockpit is still sitting there.
To calm the public, we are seen to be doing something but it actually doesnt do much. And thus the indignation in the majority of the posts.
To calm the public, we are seen to be doing something but it actually doesnt do much. And thus the indignation in the majority of the posts.
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I was thinking of cases such as this one:
Retired soldier arrested for taking tiny knife on train - Get Hampshire
It's hardly unknown for the police to be... somewhat zealous in their application and interpretation of the law regarding knives, shall we say? In addition the offences for which it's suggested he was arrested are not specifically aviation-related.
I was thinking in particular of your view of the 'reasonable excuse' bit of the law in general, not in respect of the (unknown) facts of this particular case.
If a carpet-fitter is stopped carrying a knife on Oxford Street on his lunch break, the police *might* ask 'OK, but why are you carrying it *now*, why didn't you leave it at your job site?' - and many similar situations could be imagined; why isn't it in your toolbox / in your car / in your shed / in your kitchen would be the questions.
But when you're taking the knife with you on a trip, leaving the country, that's a pretty absolute 'reasonable excuse' defence, is it not? 'I have to have it with me because if I left it back at the hotel I couldn't take it home'. You see where I'm coming from? Stopping a traveller is pretty much the same situation as stopping someone on their way home from the knife shop; the 'reasonable excuse' test in such situations relates entirely to the journey and the destination, not to the occupation or intended use of the knife (although obviously if the police can establish that the knife was being carried *with nefarious intent*, that's 'offensive weapon' whatever the other circumstances, I think?)
Note that at no point am I making a distinction between having the knife on their person, in their carry-on, or in their checked baggage; the law doesn't make any distinction, simply having the knife in their possession and control is what matters, I believe?
Retired soldier arrested for taking tiny knife on train - Get Hampshire
It's hardly unknown for the police to be... somewhat zealous in their application and interpretation of the law regarding knives, shall we say? In addition the offences for which it's suggested he was arrested are not specifically aviation-related.
The only advice I'd give is:
(1) Wait for the facts to emerge.
It may then be possible to express an opinion about why this incident, involving a 61 year old airline pilot about to board his flight, resulted in an arrest.
(2) Don't attach any weight to what is said by posters playing barrack-room lawyers.
FL
(1) Wait for the facts to emerge.
It may then be possible to express an opinion about why this incident, involving a 61 year old airline pilot about to board his flight, resulted in an arrest.
(2) Don't attach any weight to what is said by posters playing barrack-room lawyers.
FL
If a carpet-fitter is stopped carrying a knife on Oxford Street on his lunch break, the police *might* ask 'OK, but why are you carrying it *now*, why didn't you leave it at your job site?' - and many similar situations could be imagined; why isn't it in your toolbox / in your car / in your shed / in your kitchen would be the questions.
But when you're taking the knife with you on a trip, leaving the country, that's a pretty absolute 'reasonable excuse' defence, is it not? 'I have to have it with me because if I left it back at the hotel I couldn't take it home'. You see where I'm coming from? Stopping a traveller is pretty much the same situation as stopping someone on their way home from the knife shop; the 'reasonable excuse' test in such situations relates entirely to the journey and the destination, not to the occupation or intended use of the knife (although obviously if the police can establish that the knife was being carried *with nefarious intent*, that's 'offensive weapon' whatever the other circumstances, I think?)
Note that at no point am I making a distinction between having the knife on their person, in their carry-on, or in their checked baggage; the law doesn't make any distinction, simply having the knife in their possession and control is what matters, I believe?
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we could be used to bring items airside to be handed to someone else.
As a matter of fact, I can't recall any of the ramp workers being checked anywhere near as thoroughly as flight crews are when going through the terminal staff security checkpoint. They're just basically waived through.
I wonder what size ceramic blade you could hide in a Dastar. Oh wait, it would be very un-PC to try and check that. Better not...
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Strongly suspect that the low IQ Panty Searchers don't have powers of arrest. Perhaps they have to phone another agency to make it - say perhaps the Met...... (He Whined)
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Wow, this thread is getting pretty ugly, and posts with a racist-slant.
" ... ramp workers from all corners of the World ..."
" ... size ceramic blade you could hide in a Dastar..."
" ... Osama Bin Laden ... checking ID ... "
Just because you a white and a pilot, does not give you the privilege to waltz thru security and customs/immigration.
Back on topic. It was airport security that noticed the knives, and called a higher authority to determine how to proceed next. It was the London Metro police that laid the charges and subsequent arrest. And here we are, lambasting the airport security workers. The police was just enforcing the law as they interpret it. Police has the authority and responsibility to uphold law, even if you don't agree with it. At court, the judge/jury will decide whether the law was broken, and decide on the appropriate punishment - if any.
" ... ramp workers from all corners of the World ..."
" ... size ceramic blade you could hide in a Dastar..."
" ... Osama Bin Laden ... checking ID ... "
Just because you a white and a pilot, does not give you the privilege to waltz thru security and customs/immigration.
Back on topic. It was airport security that noticed the knives, and called a higher authority to determine how to proceed next. It was the London Metro police that laid the charges and subsequent arrest. And here we are, lambasting the airport security workers. The police was just enforcing the law as they interpret it. Police has the authority and responsibility to uphold law, even if you don't agree with it. At court, the judge/jury will decide whether the law was broken, and decide on the appropriate punishment - if any.