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Contract Compliance going into week 3

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Contract Compliance going into week 3

Old 16th Dec 2014, 02:18
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Age: 63
Posts: 151

I think you are wrong on this one. Taipei flight was cancelled (next to me in dispatch) as the FO arrived 30 minutes after sign on (called out) and the Captain was 60 minutes late arriving (also called out). I was taken off my flight to fly a new Taipei flight and no crew could be found to fly my flight when I left. In Taipei my flight was cancelled for the return and I was used on a later flight.
Every time I have been to dispatch 80% of crew have red lanyards on and every flight I have crewed all the pilots are wearing red. Take a look at the 747 fleet to see things working.. I agree your posts aren't helpful
PanZa-Lead is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 04:41
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Froggy is a low level, third floor wannabe. He wears his A350XWB lanyard even now for fear that his ambitions might be ruined by wearing the proper HKAOA lanyard, if he is even a member. He just can't take chances with his big promotion. It's better for him if we fail so he can feel vindicated by his lack of participation.

This is a long term battle. Stay the course...
cxorcist is online now  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 06:50
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,129
Hey cxorcist...where have you been all of this time? I was wondering what took you so long to pop up? I thought you were maybe working on your G day.

By the way do you have a A350 Lanyard for me?..I would love one, I think I would look super cool with one!

So one of our 15 flights a day to TPE flights gets canceled...Bang! It must be working then...yep, this time it must be different then!
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 06:53
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Here
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Somebody above has noticed LAX and LHR cancellations Frogger.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 07:10
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,129
LAX cancellations have been going on since September...LHR might have to do with CC, I'll give you that.

Buy the way are The G day workers still helping out?
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 10:54
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Asia
Posts: 90
Last month both going to LAX and from we had 80 people on board. Being curious, I typed in some random dates in January and February and I can confirm 3 out of 4 flights any day I choose using my pri-11 FOCs...

Somehow I don't think they are canceling some of the 4th daily LAX flights because of CC...
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 11:30
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Once and for all: spoke to a high ranking mgr in LA. They told me that HK had advised they were cancelling flights for 2-3 months <quote> 'due to current crew shortages'. Do you honestly think that CC will 'help' that situation? Why are so many of you so intent on denigrating the efforts of the vast majority of aircrew, and further, giving 'comfort to the enemy' in your comments? The answer: either you are feeling guilty as sin about your own actions, or you are working with and/or are management.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 12:25
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 514
Amen and that is the word of the lord.
iceman50 is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2014, 14:54
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
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There is a notice on the ISD section of the website that details exactly what flights are cancelled these couple of months. As you can see it is a whole bunch to a whole bunch of different destinations.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 18:11
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Anyone who doesn't choose lifestyle and family over the left seat is a _____
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 08:06
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 619
Reduced 777 schedule

Yes the LAX/LHR schedules have been planned to be reduced for a while. I noticed about 4-5 months ago that the leave slots for HK based 777 CNs for Jan-Mar 2015 went from almost even to -30 to -40 slots. That is a huge shortage. So either they cancel all leave, get everyone up to 900hrs or cancel some services.

At about the same time, they decided to 'rob peter to pay paul' by taking guys from the bus to the 777 for the first few months of 2015.

But now with the 30+ US departures (and possibly 50+ more to come) one wonders how they are going to man the 744 and 777?

So I wouldn't say any of the above is the result of CC. But giving pay cuts, housing at 15% of the level of expat FOs, canceling A days etc etc all add up.

You reap what you sow!
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 15:53
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Just read in the FOP update that CX had only 5700 pilot applications for this year. In the previous years applications were more then double and intake of new cadets one third of what they are planning for next year. Will be interesting to see if they manage to get 320 new bums into the seats next year as planned.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 16:33
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 478
What--it's been just a few weeks and we have people whinging--and this even during the lull before Christmas and NY/CNY ?

There have been many threads here (and elsewhere) talking about what CC is and what it is not. It is a reduction in labour supply (ours) and flexibility by working to contract and nothing more. There is no 'cure' for this; it's a loss of units of labor at an operation that's already undermanned (by taking new deliveries and lack of recruiting going to be even more so) and depends on people to go above and beyond to cover for this. And that it takes time to ripple through. We haven't even got to the discretion issue yet--at least in terms of no discretion--so there's still more cards to be played as necessary.

The company WILL be able to fill its schedule without disruption if it chooses to. Now a large part of this might be canceling/juggling flights, contracting to other carriers, moving people around (with associated costs AND associated reduction in monthly availability), sending oversales to other carriers, and even leasing crews and airplanes. ALL of these options are tremendously more expensive (as are parked airplanes which bleed cash when they're not flying) than an inflation adjustment with pay and negotiating as an adult and hit the bottom line. And as said before it may take shareholders and others with interests in profitability to force the company to do the right thing.

We also have the self-serving (who hurt themselves as well as others) G/L day workers and nonparticipants. These will cost more money in overtime and will have to be forced to 'time out.' Again this hits profitability which IS the key to CC. It's unfortunate we are forced into a position of demonstrating what our goodwill is worth--no one wants this or to see profitability decline--but the situation is not of our making nor do we have any blame whatsoever in it. If anything we've bent over backwards to bargain in good faith. There has been absolutely NO movement toward any real negotiation in any way. None. A rational company would have seen this coming and fixed it. But we apparently are dealing with folks who place ego, power, and position over profit and it will take time for others (who have their money tied up in them) to convince them this is not how a for-profit business behaves. At the end of the day here--just like everywhere else--Money Talks.

For the cry in the beer types what's the worst that can happen ? An imposed pay 'rise ?' Showing up on time where you're supposed to be and doing your job just like you always have ? Crew Control potentially learning how to roster people more efficiently ? Ignoring a few red lights, sheets under the door, third parties telling them they have someone on the line ("I'm not contactable yet" works for this), and phone calls ? Not pulling the lever on crew direct ? Is this really that much of a burden ? And maybe some will find out they like being contactable only when required, and that there's not any reason to feel guilty about ignoring someone you're not really keen to talk to anyway. Days on the road might be a pain, but then again how different is this than the previous status quo ? And maybe lack of contactability will reveal to Crew Control the benefits of hard scheduling, getting away from crisis management all the time, and sticking to something close to a published roster--benefit to all.

And if CC doesn't go as expected there are still a few jokers in the deck which can be played later if such a thing becomes appropriate.

Reserve exacerbates the manning problem and will work itself out (and again as a resource limiting situation decreases personnel availability vice simply flying a hard schedule). Crews held off station on reserve cost money to put up; those held at HKG or on bases severely limit what lines they can fly. ANY of these can cost overtime when a maxed out roster is busted. One thing that we did do wrong in the past is 30 days free reserve; now that the company has unilaterally violated the A day agreement maybe we can fix this in the future by holding out to have credit for ANY reserve, and (real--not some sort of 'monitored' BS that excludes much of the membership by its travel limitations) A days chosen at a lesser credit factor (it should be obvious to everyone by now the A day thing should have been simply left alone). Onshore entities maybe ought to remember this too when they negotiate THEIR contracts where both parties are required to bargain in good faith.

Last edited by Shep69; 19th Dec 2014 at 19:04.
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Old 19th Dec 2014, 20:12
  #34 (permalink)  
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amen shep...
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 07:39
  #35 (permalink)  
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Shep for GMA!! You write a lot of sense, my friend.
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 23:19
  #36 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 02:14
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 23
Half a dent

If Shep is writing sense, he can't be GMA...duh... and he can't be your friend... Double duh....
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 02:32
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Liquifaction Island
Age: 60
Posts: 137
46 pax sectors cancelled for Dec/Jan mostly 9+ hour flights
freighter 50+
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 03:00
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,129
Turnandburn can you give more details of which sectors they have cancelled?
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 03:30
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Liquifaction Island
Age: 60
Posts: 137
its published on ISD web
Its on cargo web
its on airport arrivals/dep
and a few atc apps carry it
it'd just data matching not rocket science

reasons for cancellations are not shown
can be flight consolidation
no pax
no aircraft
no crew

none of that is known so you can read anything into it to make up nice stories whatever.

Is it due contract compliance hard to prove?
But the info is available for those who wish to search for it.
turnandburn is offline  

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