HOUSING

[NoseGear]

ChinaBeached

That is the TRUTH spoken.....and I'll refrain from any A Few Good Men quotes about truth and handling it etc etc....epic post

[AndontcallmeShirley]

Simple question... You're unemployed, struggling to make ends meet and your offered a job like this. You honestly turn it down because you're worth better? I bet you're a privately educated only child from money aren't you? And I would bet all of my C-scale salary that you're single (maybe you could put it towards another oversized Breitling??) One mans rags is another mans riches and you show no appreciation for that nor personal circumstance borne from necessity. Youre only interested in ramming your opinion down everybodys throats to prove youre better than the rest of us. I wont comment any further because if by any chance we ever met and you had the spine which you speak of to say this the conversation wouldn't be very long and even at a able of B-Scalers they would all be telling you to pipe down. As will I. Seeing we have zero common ground ill leave this now to go work on my NDB's on flight sim so hopefully one day ill be as good as you.

goathead: I initially commented on this thread because it related to an incorrect assumption made about SO's which putting right may or may not help you in your future plans, i.e whether or not we were likely to shaft you in any upcoming divisive pay offer/housing etc. I'm sorry if this post on this public bulletin board offends you. Believe it or not it was an attempt to help you in your forward planning. In the future i'll be sure not to have an opinion on anything that doesnt affect me whether that be the notams below FL200 or whether Man U played well at the weekend. Ill be a good boy.

[sorvad]

AnddontcallmeShirley....you're absolutely on the mark...but don't expect any of the holier than thou malcontents on here to change their tune...they pretend they're all out for the greater good, but the reality is that they want to feather their own nests....just like we all do...it's just that they can afford to do so without too much jeopardy. The reality is, most of them joined during a prolonged period of industrial unrest too when those senior to them bemoaned them for being responsible for eroding everyone's T's & C's by joining on B scales....did they care?...did they F**k...because they recognised that the job was better than most others available to them..they made the most of the job market at the time....just like you have...it's very easy for them to accuse you in your 500 sq ft shoebox of jeopardising their housing while they sit in their 2000 sq ft villa's paid for by the company to the tune of $75,000 a month....Ivory towers spring to mind.
All I can say is make the most of whatever you've got , enjoy it , and sod everyone who blames you for their woes

[Bangaluru]

Shirley,

Good man. Well said. I'm B scale but I'd have taken what you did in a heartbeat for the same reasons you did. I dare say EVERYBODY would have. It's every man for himself here.

Although I agree that previous experience in small aeroplanes is invaluable. It's not what is sensible career wise/financially when CX offers what they did in the way of free training etc.

Get your FO job and keep your eyes open for a better deal. I know you will.

[kmagyoyo]

Which one is it guys? Your leaving for greener pastures or your sticking around to outvote B scales? They're mutually exclusive.

[McNugget]

No, they aren't.

Those greener pastures may await our newly anointed JFOs soon. For the rest, well, they have potentially years of voting before the same opportunities arrive.

That said, it's not my style (nor the LEP body as a whole) to separate the workforce into factions, but ultimately, the LEP workforce will be the dominant one within the AOA, and they have the GC membership to represent them.

Everyone needs to come to the realisation that a UNION is a body representing a unified body, not sub-representing the various factions within, as an individual concern.

Expats will have the full support of the (highly unified) LEP group, but for that to happen, they need to feel that they have the support of the expat pilot group.

Sounds fair enough.

Goathead- it's not about going after anyone's stuff. We all need to stick up for each other and understand the impact of what we're separately concerning ourselves with;

I (an LEP) want the best possible housing outcome for expats. It puts upward pressure on our terms, so it does involve me.

You ought to fight for better LEP terms, as those terms put downward pressure on yours, and I believe it to be in your best interest to minimise the discrepancy. To that end, I would state that HKPA terms & negotiations also involve the expats.

Be assured, however, that although you'll hear most of us may be looking elsewhere, but if conditions improve, LEPs will stay. I reckon most would like to stay if it is viable. It's a dreadful industry for job seekers, and CX is far from the worst. The only complaint you'll hear resonating time and time again from us is that we will be unable to accommodate a family in HK when that time comes. That has to change, and it will, lest hundreds leave the company each year when the time comes. What we must collectively ensure is that what we get offered to stem that flow minimises the downward pressure exerted on the expat package.

Consequently as a group, we're not short-sighted enough to just sell out our peers over a few measly dollars. It's in everyone's collective interests to look out for each other's benefits.

A Scale allowed B Scale to happen. B Scale allowed C Scale to happen. What's done is done. I believe CX has found the floor, and will be intent on bringing everyone down to it/in that direction.

[bushbum]

I understand that generally most LEP/HKPA pilots are not out to undermine B or A scale conditions. And most B or A scale are very keen to see an increase to the HKPA as well. I think one thing that unites us is Housing, be it HKPA or Expat even if they are completely different in $ terms. We both want to see an increase in HKPA and while no changes to Expat allowances.

So my question is, if we all vote a united NO on the pay proposal, based on the small HKPA increase, what do you expect to achieve in subsequent negotiations?

And what is to say the HKPA pilots won't undermine the A and B scale pilots in the future, regardless of this vote outcome?

[ChinaBeached]

Sorvad - your history of posts shows a distinctive trend: name calling and that everything is excusable due "personal circumstance": from G-Day workers to all manner of other topics. Your stouches with "Yeager" spring to mind.

For the record (and feel free to read my history of posts on the topic) when I was offered C-Scale I was never on easy street. I was living pay cheque to pay cheque and saving what and where I could for my expected / promised move to HK. I looked into every sentence, paragraph, chapter and verse of the contract given to me. I sought independent financial advice from sources in HK to see if the contract was workable LONG TERM. All advice given was that it simply wasn't. So why waste ?? years at CX only be use it as a stepping stone to re-join at the bottom of a seniority list somewhere else? I spoke to friends at CX all saying the same and what it would mean for LONG TERM pressure on the pilot T&C's generally. Unmistakably C-Scale is and was wrong all accounts. C-Scale is NOT a better job than the others out there. I and many others who turned it down are living proof and can attest to it.

The 3+ years I was in limbo waiting for the promised offer was nothing but shear HELL. Working short term contract jobs anywhere I could get them in order to bide my time: treated like crap as all of the contract guys were by way of rosters, routes and general conditions. Only after I turned C-Scale down was I able to plan for a future and then interview for a career job. No short cuts and no undermining anywhere.

And the ivory tower you accuse me of living in has been built brick by ivory bloody brick with hard work, study, determination and patience. If that offends you then I'll wait for your reply and name calling..... And Shirley: yes, I have my pretty Breitling. Such a pleasure to wear when you earn the privilege to afford to do so. Shall I tell you about my Patek Phillipe or my holiday bungalow? You'd be amazed what hard work, credentials, experience, determination and patience can get. And no, we won't meet for a drink. I visit 7/11's only rarely for a quick soft drink as I pass by when in HK. But if by chance we were at a bar that didn't require Groupon coupons and with my B-Scale friends I know they'll be telling you the same. Keeping the peace on the flightdeck while you guys all rant about how tough the C-Scale package is to live on, hearing you justify your decision, how you're going to tell CX to shove it and run to EK, etc, etc.... is one thing. Doing it socially at a bar and expecting the same tolerance and patience is definitely another.

As said before, B-Scale did not lower the standards (recruitment and other) to what C-Scale has. B-Scale did not prevent pilots from securing a financially responsible career for them and their families. B-Scale did not lower the global applicant experience levels to zero hours. B-Scale did not lower interview questions to "Tell us what your parents think about you becoming a pilot" (as per another's interview experience shared on this web site). B-Scale did not cut the training from 14 FFS's for DESO's with 1000's of hours experience to 6 for iCadets applying with zero experience. Harp on as you wish regarding A to B Scale but the differences from A-B and then B-C are lightyears apart by way of severe detrimental affects on a pilot's long term career and financial security at CX.

Bangaluru: No. Not "EVERYBODY". 59 out of 60 of us on the hold file immediately as C-Scale was offered said NO to C-Scale. 98.33% said NO.

Your comment of "it's every man for himself here" speaks volumes.

Silber: Some airlines will accept a maximum of 500 hrs of the P2X rating. This is their uniform approach to other airlines operating with SO's such as QF. But to be competitive for a position at EK, EY or QR you're going to need a recognisable circa 4000 hrs TT. I do not doubt for one instant the comments you make about your friend. However he must have had close to or more hours than fresh CPL when joining CX. If 6 years ago he would most likely have been a DESO which means he would have had close to those hours already (plus Command time) to even interview for CX for the DESO position. (When I interviewed the min TT was 2500 hrs ex military guy, max was around 6500 hrs TT. All of us had > 1000 hrs Command time. All but one had jet experience and the one that didn't was a turboprop Capt).

I've many, many friends at CX who are worried and see the pressures that C-Scale has undeniably placed on their contracts. The evidence is this entire thread and your latest AOA update. How so many of you can pat the backs of those placing undeniable pressures on your own career and financial security is amazing.

[fly123456]

China,

It's sad we couldn't count on your experience because of the ****e deal the company decided to implement.

C-scale pilots,

You believe B-scale pilots shouldn't have let C-scale happen?
I'm with you here.
But that would have been to Chinabeached's benefit (and to others with extensive experience), not yours.
Do you think CX would have offered you free training if they still had access to candidates with more than 3000h?

[McNugget]

ChinaBeached

You, in a self-righteous way, do make some valid points. At the same time, you come out with some real drivel. I'm not going to pick your post apart point by point, as you seem to enjoy doing.

What I will say, is that despite the bulk of your rants being emotive rubbish, I do agree with some of what you say, but ultimately, we took an offer that was the best available at the time. Just like others did before they got to what they consider to be their career airlines.

It came with a great lifestyle, great roster, good experiences, and an upgrade in short order (in the grand scheme of things) to a position as a wide body long-haul pilot. Then, you're well placed to move on if you so wish. No different in concept to the way you built experience, flying GA/contract/regional etc. before committing to your career airline. Just like your experience building, it may not have the terms and conditions to be a career outfit, but it was better than what else was on offer as a low-hours pilot back home. Such is life. US$85k as a year one SO is a lot better than most starter jobs, and getting US$100k as a lump sum to retain me until about the time I am marketable elsewhere was a nice kicker, too. So, you tell me who's the fool for taking it on the way up?

Get over the fact that it didn't work out for you. Claiming that we are responsible for the downward pressure on expat conditions is nothing short of hysteria. The fact is that B scale pilots let it happen. There is no two ways about it. Those at the bottom of the ladder will do what they need to - take poor jobs, take uncertain jobs, take badly paid jobs, et al to get the experience necessary to move on. Those at the 'top' of the ladder, ie. those in career positions are the ones responsible for protecting their conditions. Not those on the outside.

I'm eager for more housing. I will almost certainly stay if that becomes more reasonable. However, I don't consider my conditions to be poor in comparison to the rest of the industry. Inadequate housing, indeed. But, I will soon be a QL'd FO, my package will be around six figures per month in HKD, averaged over the year. Housing aside, anyone in the industry would agree that such a package is a very competitive one financially. So, it seems, in most respects, C-scale is a better job than most out there, particularly when you consider one could be in that position less than four years after starting, and still be in their early twenties. Again, as an experience building job, which will make you very marketable in the future, I will strongly disagree with anyone who says it isn't a great stepping stone at least. Let's face it, most 'career' destinations will offer a pretty heavy pay cut for a QL'd FO. You'll have a bigger house back home, I agree.

I assume now, that you're going to go on about how we should all be flying BE-200s on non-precision approaches etc. to build experience. That would be great, I'd love to do it. But, the market has spoken, and nobody cares or values such experience anymore. It's sad, but airlines want folks with airline experience. International ops, type-ratings, all the academic/procedural background that goes with it. This has taken precedence over physical flying ability. I suppose you think that's our fault, too.

So, much as most of us would like to do the low-paid GA fun flying for a while, we're not stupid enough to do so at the expense of our careers. For those that wish to leave when they can, this is their golden ticket. BE-200 time doesn't cut it anymore; we have to do what it takes to ensure the success of our careers. Not sure if you're up to date with the EU market right now, but sadly even Q400 captains can't get a look-in with jet operators for the most part. It's disgusting, I agree, but you've got to do what it takes. Times are very different to even 5 years ago.

Before you lambast me with your emotive presumptions, because you seem to care so much - I joined with experience, I have 3 properties, and my watch collection comprises of 8 pieces, all of which far better (and, as it happens at least twice the price of) than the tacky, tinny Breitling Aerospace quartz powered heap that folks like you show up to work with. Such a pleasure to wear when you earn the privilege to afford to do so.

[AnAmusedReader]

Good luck to the BA applicants.

Perhaps that will make the DFO revisit his words when the HKPA came in. He said something like 'We will revisit it when we have to , when market forces dictate.'

[McNugget]

AAR

I don't think many HKPA guys are competitive for this BA intake. Still a year or so before there are sufficient numbers of guys with 1000 hrs as a JFO to cause any eyebrows to raise.

[Arfur Dent]

Cathay used to set trends and was a 'market force' - now it just follows what others do. No innovation, no investment in the future or its' people. Led by 'yes men' who are terrified of their own shadows and afraid to upset the apple cart.
Yes, they get paid well and rewarded for their loyalty to Swires in London but, well managed (or managed at all!), this Company could be so much better.
Ex DFO - now 'Director People' - what a joke!

[AndontcallmeShirley]

Sorry, I couldn'r resist...

[ChinaBeached] The 3+ years I was in limbo waiting for the promised offer was nothing but shear HELL. Working short term contract jobs anywhere I could get them in order to bide my time: treated like crap as all of the contract guys were by way of rosters, routes and general conditions. [/ChinaBeached]

From where I am sitting you've just done your own C-Scale without even knowing it. Why didn't you march into the Chief Pilots office and demand equitable treatment... Or leave because you're allowing the industry to degrade your skills?

Hypocrite much?

(Ok, I am done now. I'm too busy working my 3rd job to spend time arguing on the internet)

[ChinaBeached]

I thought assumptions made you an ass, as you put it Shirley??

The "C-Scale" I created for myself? You really are miraculously naive as to other options in the world's international airline sector. I took jobs to maintain employment, maintain my flying skills & currency, and progress in experience. I took contract jobs accordingly in order to bide my time for the promised CX job. I didn't interview for any job (contract or other) that was of a lower standard in terms & conditions of the pilot body or recruitment standards. (Often higher standards & better pay due the short term nature). The treatment of us by definition of a being a contractor and hence without a seniority number, and as a foreigner, the relocating around the globe, RP's etc was damn hard. Some places better than others. If you took the time to research before ass-ing around with assumptions you'd see what widebody contracts pay around the world and the airlines associated.

And for for the record I did request and met with CX Recruitment Management (KC to be precise) about C-Scale. It was in (her) exact office where I said no.

Try as you will to bring me down to your level & to justify your actions. But for your actions & choices threats like this one on housing at CX would not be so prevalent.

Hypocrite? No. You just put as much effort into your rebuttals as you do your long term career planning. Aim before you shoot. You're the cheapest ass in a seat: literally. You know it, I know it.

[McNugget]

You said it, CB. Nobody else. You also said you lived paycheque to paycheque, before you edited that bit out.

Get on with your own life.

[missingblade]

You lot get my vote for most pathetic self justifying zero achieving thread on pprune ever!

Grow up!

[ChinaBeached]

McNugget: re-read post #56. No editing. Just your poor comprehension and shoot from the hip mentality. I'll await your apology, but that would take integrity.

You defend C-Scale because it's what you did. Emotional? No denying it. And for reasons that you can't fathom when all you worked for for so long was crapped on. You are part of the problem, not the solution despite your robust self adoration. (Have you seen what actually goes in to make McNuggets????? Quite apt I think).

Curtain Rod & Missing Blade: Agreed. I'll leave it here.

[Flying Clog]

What Rod said

[goathead]

Shirley
You just be a good boy and read the paper
Hows this
You write a motion proposing company wide CC for all to have Housing !
Ill second it if you do , seriously!
Goat