Joint statement from NC
Join Date: Mar 2007
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The company is making loads of money compared to other airlines around the world. That should be our leverage.
Why should we concede anything?
I keep hearing 3-men long haul "because others do it".
The day the company is on the edge of bankruptcy is the day we'd have to start considering it.
If they are complaining about the lack of profitability, maybe they should have a look at all those price fixing fines.
Why should we concede anything?
I keep hearing 3-men long haul "because others do it".
The day the company is on the edge of bankruptcy is the day we'd have to start considering it.
If they are complaining about the lack of profitability, maybe they should have a look at all those price fixing fines.
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Jizz,
Saving the company money will increase your profit share. You may get HK$2000 next year instead of $1800. That'll get you about 1 and a half drinks at a bar in SFO. Costing the company money will hit them in the only place that they feel it. Swire's bean counters will panic and the message will come from above to fix this mess. If you do nothing, you'll get nothing.
TwoTigers,
While I can appreciate your desire to do something, you come across as a buffoon. Smoke some tires? You've burned 1.6T how many times now? Judging by your join date, I'd bet that you're not even a captain and haven't burned anything other than a bunch of BS.
Saving the company money will increase your profit share. You may get HK$2000 next year instead of $1800. That'll get you about 1 and a half drinks at a bar in SFO. Costing the company money will hit them in the only place that they feel it. Swire's bean counters will panic and the message will come from above to fix this mess. If you do nothing, you'll get nothing.
TwoTigers,
While I can appreciate your desire to do something, you come across as a buffoon. Smoke some tires? You've burned 1.6T how many times now? Judging by your join date, I'd bet that you're not even a captain and haven't burned anything other than a bunch of BS.
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In one of the last News letters some Cargo guy stated that one extra Pacific sector cost about 500 000 US$.
Crew cost are insignificant. A payrise would be X % from insignificant.
This is about the ego of some managers looking for a bonus, nothing else.
I say the answer must be war.
May it be guerilla warfare or full frontal or both.
Crew cost are insignificant. A payrise would be X % from insignificant.
This is about the ego of some managers looking for a bonus, nothing else.
I say the answer must be war.
May it be guerilla warfare or full frontal or both.
Laughing Stock
It is my understanding that many industrial unions & employee contract negotiators as well as tertiary institutions are starting to cite the "CX Pilot body & the AOA" as an example of exceedingly poor salary & contract negotiators.
As a professional group, the representatives of the Pilots at CX have demonstrated themselves as amateurs with little to no negotiating presence or ability.
Many now consider the Pilot representatives as a virtual laughing stock. With "negotiations" wholly consisting of bluff after bluff with no follow through whatsoever. On the other side of the table is a well briefed, highly organised & unified employer who considers the employee spokes party weak, easily manipulated & ineffective.
It is astonishing to me that the Pilots of CX would continue to stand for such treatment when the reality of their potential impact on their employer could be so severe.
As a professional group, the representatives of the Pilots at CX have demonstrated themselves as amateurs with little to no negotiating presence or ability.
Many now consider the Pilot representatives as a virtual laughing stock. With "negotiations" wholly consisting of bluff after bluff with no follow through whatsoever. On the other side of the table is a well briefed, highly organised & unified employer who considers the employee spokes party weak, easily manipulated & ineffective.
It is astonishing to me that the Pilots of CX would continue to stand for such treatment when the reality of their potential impact on their employer could be so severe.
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So what happens when a "bluff" isn't a bluff?
I find it fortuitous that half the GC changes over in the next month. The company may find itself dealing with a whole different animal.
Time for a guy check boys and girls...
I find it fortuitous that half the GC changes over in the next month. The company may find itself dealing with a whole different animal.
Time for a guy check boys and girls...
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G-day workers
You need G-day workers!!
Everyone has the right to not answer their phones. I am not disputing that. However, for CC to be close to an effective industrial weapon, the company must see a change once CC is called. They also must believe that if they make concessions and get a deal, then the AOA will cease CC and they will see another change back to circumstances they find more favourable. Unless they observe change, then CC is useless as an industrial weapon.
For those that puff out their chests and write they are in permanent CC, whilst not disputing your right to do that, you are actually undermining the effectiveness of CC.
There is a growing school of thought that the first action of CC should be a "helpfulness" campaign that makes crew control's life as easy as possible. Once we are propping up the roster, well .... you can guess what happens....
Everyone has the right to not answer their phones. I am not disputing that. However, for CC to be close to an effective industrial weapon, the company must see a change once CC is called. They also must believe that if they make concessions and get a deal, then the AOA will cease CC and they will see another change back to circumstances they find more favourable. Unless they observe change, then CC is useless as an industrial weapon.
For those that puff out their chests and write they are in permanent CC, whilst not disputing your right to do that, you are actually undermining the effectiveness of CC.
There is a growing school of thought that the first action of CC should be a "helpfulness" campaign that makes crew control's life as easy as possible. Once we are propping up the roster, well .... you can guess what happens....
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I agree, Liam.
However, I think CC can still put the operations in a worse situation than they are now.
Just compare the situation of the last few months to what it was a year, or even six months ago.
It's unfortunate we even have to reach this point, because even if the company gives in, and offer us a barely adequate deal, most of us will still be pissed off and would continue to not answer phones, etc...
Bad (or good) habits are here to stay.
The managers shot themselves in the foot by not accepting a proper pay review last year. But what do they care? They'll still get a nice bonus and can then pass the hot potato to someone else.
However, I think CC can still put the operations in a worse situation than they are now.
Just compare the situation of the last few months to what it was a year, or even six months ago.
It's unfortunate we even have to reach this point, because even if the company gives in, and offer us a barely adequate deal, most of us will still be pissed off and would continue to not answer phones, etc...
Bad (or good) habits are here to stay.
The managers shot themselves in the foot by not accepting a proper pay review last year. But what do they care? They'll still get a nice bonus and can then pass the hot potato to someone else.
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Edit: this was meant to follow Oasis' reply, but Rod beat me to it!
No, he's not. This fallacious concept has got to be kyboshed.
It's absolutely flawed logic to claim "we need G day workers". With every bit of assistance that pilots unnecessarily provide the Company, it enables management to kick the can of reasonable remuneration/CoS further down the road. Every time someone helps out, you generate a "virtual" SO, FO and CN, relieving the pressure of supply, despite their increasing demand.
I shudder to think how much better off we would be if it wasn't for the simple minded "I'm alright thanks Jack-the AOA hasn't said we're in C.C" group. You get the contracts you deserve. God only knows how much leverage we would have gained by now, how little the Company would have to work with, if it wasn't for single minded, short sighted guys and girls willing to prostitute themselves for a few lousy percent of G day callout remuneration, a couple of G days worked to improve a commuting roster, or an early CMD to satisfy an ego or basing requirement.
Next time you're p!ssing and moaning about why you don't have the pay rise which you obviously deserve, just think of all the times you've sold your soul to the devil for an ill-thought out, short term and ultimately worthless "gain".
We wouldn't be in the current quagmire of drawn out negotiations and Company prevarications if everyone just put the group ahead of their own selfish needs. It's not rocket surgery.
Even GC Members are "horse trading" rosters with the Company. It makes me sick to my stomach. Keep justifying it however - I respect those that actually admit they're doing it for selfish reasons. Just don't pour BS in my ear claiming that we "need" G day heroes and other self interested individuals to "gain future leverage". We need that like a Thai hooker needs a degree in astrophysics.
You're only fooling yourselves.
No, he's not. This fallacious concept has got to be kyboshed.
It's absolutely flawed logic to claim "we need G day workers". With every bit of assistance that pilots unnecessarily provide the Company, it enables management to kick the can of reasonable remuneration/CoS further down the road. Every time someone helps out, you generate a "virtual" SO, FO and CN, relieving the pressure of supply, despite their increasing demand.
I shudder to think how much better off we would be if it wasn't for the simple minded "I'm alright thanks Jack-the AOA hasn't said we're in C.C" group. You get the contracts you deserve. God only knows how much leverage we would have gained by now, how little the Company would have to work with, if it wasn't for single minded, short sighted guys and girls willing to prostitute themselves for a few lousy percent of G day callout remuneration, a couple of G days worked to improve a commuting roster, or an early CMD to satisfy an ego or basing requirement.
Next time you're p!ssing and moaning about why you don't have the pay rise which you obviously deserve, just think of all the times you've sold your soul to the devil for an ill-thought out, short term and ultimately worthless "gain".
We wouldn't be in the current quagmire of drawn out negotiations and Company prevarications if everyone just put the group ahead of their own selfish needs. It's not rocket surgery.
Even GC Members are "horse trading" rosters with the Company. It makes me sick to my stomach. Keep justifying it however - I respect those that actually admit they're doing it for selfish reasons. Just don't pour BS in my ear claiming that we "need" G day heroes and other self interested individuals to "gain future leverage". We need that like a Thai hooker needs a degree in astrophysics.
You're only fooling yourselves.
Last edited by superfrozo; 6th Aug 2014 at 11:12. Reason: Rod beat me to it!
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Rod and Superfrozo
You missed the point. Read my post again, I am referencing this solely in terms of the effectiveness of CC.
If you want to argue that no pilot should ever work a G-day because of overtime distribution or roster stability, then fine make your arguments, but that has nothing to do with industrial relations. You are also about 10 years too late with your arguments, because you signed a contract that not only allows it, but rewards it.
I put it to you, if nobody ever worked a G-day, nobody ever answered their phone or checked crewdirect before sign-on, then a CC campaign would be completely ineffective, because Crew Control would see absolutely no change in our behaviour. CC would give us no leverage.
Like I say, whether you approve of G-day working or not, in terms of CC effectiveness, you need G-days workers.
If you want to argue that no pilot should ever work a G-day because of overtime distribution or roster stability, then fine make your arguments, but that has nothing to do with industrial relations. You are also about 10 years too late with your arguments, because you signed a contract that not only allows it, but rewards it.
I put it to you, if nobody ever worked a G-day, nobody ever answered their phone or checked crewdirect before sign-on, then a CC campaign would be completely ineffective, because Crew Control would see absolutely no change in our behaviour. CC would give us no leverage.
Like I say, whether you approve of G-day working or not, in terms of CC effectiveness, you need G-days workers.
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Box Jockey
No, if everyone was in a permanent state of not answering phones or checking Crewdirect, you would not get a payrise.
What would a payrise do? Remember, the company would realise that pay would have no effect as you are in a permanent state of not answering the phone. If they gave us all a payrise, would you work a G-day, would Frozo forgive you if you did?
You, frozo (who I think is on the GC) and Rod, need to deal with the world as it exists, not how you believe it should exist. The HKAOA has 2000 members out of some 3000 pilots. A permanent state of CC would just result in the non-members writing their own rosters and pay checks, and HKAOA members would be left with the dregs. I think over time you would see membership numbers decline. Now frozo, would "tut tut" and say they are putting self interest first, that is true, but remember that is why they are non-members.
If not answering your phone makes you feel better, then go for it. If trawling through Crewdirect looking for G-day works passes away the hours, go for it. But don't kid yourself that you are working towards a pay rise- you are not.
Now if the 2000 temporarily became the prop that held the roster up, and then the GC turned to the company and said see that prop, see this foot, see this phone with the SCMP phone number on speed dial.... Then you may get a payrise. But just like in 2010 the membership would have to promise to keep propping up the roster for a period of time to get the pay rise- it's called leverage.
What would a payrise do? Remember, the company would realise that pay would have no effect as you are in a permanent state of not answering the phone. If they gave us all a payrise, would you work a G-day, would Frozo forgive you if you did?
You, frozo (who I think is on the GC) and Rod, need to deal with the world as it exists, not how you believe it should exist. The HKAOA has 2000 members out of some 3000 pilots. A permanent state of CC would just result in the non-members writing their own rosters and pay checks, and HKAOA members would be left with the dregs. I think over time you would see membership numbers decline. Now frozo, would "tut tut" and say they are putting self interest first, that is true, but remember that is why they are non-members.
If not answering your phone makes you feel better, then go for it. If trawling through Crewdirect looking for G-day works passes away the hours, go for it. But don't kid yourself that you are working towards a pay rise- you are not.
Now if the 2000 temporarily became the prop that held the roster up, and then the GC turned to the company and said see that prop, see this foot, see this phone with the SCMP phone number on speed dial.... Then you may get a payrise. But just like in 2010 the membership would have to promise to keep propping up the roster for a period of time to get the pay rise- it's called leverage.
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Trainers - Really?
Firstly, I'm not one. A thought - how far down the list of jobs do you intend to go? One may consider an L day worker to be out of order, or a G Day worker or a new sim profile tester etc etc, coming down some kind of arbitrary scale about which I make no comment. Can you extend it to trainers though? Where does it change from taking a job available to anyone to earn money to unnecessarily "Volunteering"? No-one is forced to become a Captain; are our colleagues who became or are becoming Captains now volunteering to help out? Think not, none of us would be here without the Trainers, it's just a job, give the guys a break.
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Trainers? Yes, it IS a problem because they are training replacements who will do the same job on far inferior contracts. I would not do it under any circumstances... 8,10,12,15,18%. No amount is worth cutting off your own nose for! Those who do are both greedy and short-sighted.
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You guys need to get off the crack pipe and step away from the furry wall!
Seriously, being a trainer is the cause of all our problems? Firstly, I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted. The amount of reward I receive is certainly worth any extra efforts that I put in and bet my roster is a damn sight more stable than yours. Is it really enough? Do any of us make enough? When is enough, enough? I bet it's more than than you think it is. I'm not over 60 and still here...what's your excuse?
Please tell me which airline doesn't train new inductee crews on lower contracts? Any? Load of ****e! You expect me to quit my C&T job, so that PC's can expire just to make an industrial point for you? I don't work G days, I don't answer my phone and I don't acknowledge Crew Direct. Greedy and short sighted... Seriously? I do it because I actually enjoy doing it, despite the frustration of my ill prepared and demotivated colleagues who turn up time after time and perform like they have never seen the A/C before...Now that's pathetic.
Pick the correct target, I'm not the enemy and will not make a stand for the greater good. I'm on permanent CC and have been for several years.
All this ****e about accepting training positions is an old argument propagated by has beens and wannabes. Get a f"""""g life!
I seriously hope 'Curtain' isn't Roger Federer, that would be a great disappointment.
Seriously, being a trainer is the cause of all our problems? Firstly, I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted. The amount of reward I receive is certainly worth any extra efforts that I put in and bet my roster is a damn sight more stable than yours. Is it really enough? Do any of us make enough? When is enough, enough? I bet it's more than than you think it is. I'm not over 60 and still here...what's your excuse?
Please tell me which airline doesn't train new inductee crews on lower contracts? Any? Load of ****e! You expect me to quit my C&T job, so that PC's can expire just to make an industrial point for you? I don't work G days, I don't answer my phone and I don't acknowledge Crew Direct. Greedy and short sighted... Seriously? I do it because I actually enjoy doing it, despite the frustration of my ill prepared and demotivated colleagues who turn up time after time and perform like they have never seen the A/C before...Now that's pathetic.
Pick the correct target, I'm not the enemy and will not make a stand for the greater good. I'm on permanent CC and have been for several years.
All this ****e about accepting training positions is an old argument propagated by has beens and wannabes. Get a f"""""g life!
I seriously hope 'Curtain' isn't Roger Federer, that would be a great disappointment.
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Kontract Killer,
How appropriate for you to use that name! You actually are killing your own contract with your work. You know it, we know it, that's it and that's all. Training guys and gals that put downward pressure on your own wages is just plain dumb.
You got one thing right though. I am a wannabe. I'd like to be trainer, but I would never volunteer for it (asked or not) under the current conditions. You are quite literally making yourself a minority as an expat on full housing. You will soon be outnumbered by those you trained to the line. What do you think the future of housing will be at that point? A scalers made the same mistake. How many of those are there left? Maybe you were/are one. If so, you're a really slow learner.
Forget about pay rises. Housing is the only thing we have which is even remotely indexed to inflation. Bye bye! Maybe it will be easier to get those tiny HDP driven pay rises once housing is gone. Whew, what a relief!
Tell yourself all those lies if it makes you feel better, but you need to get a f"""""g clue if you are believing your own BS.
How appropriate for you to use that name! You actually are killing your own contract with your work. You know it, we know it, that's it and that's all. Training guys and gals that put downward pressure on your own wages is just plain dumb.
You got one thing right though. I am a wannabe. I'd like to be trainer, but I would never volunteer for it (asked or not) under the current conditions. You are quite literally making yourself a minority as an expat on full housing. You will soon be outnumbered by those you trained to the line. What do you think the future of housing will be at that point? A scalers made the same mistake. How many of those are there left? Maybe you were/are one. If so, you're a really slow learner.
Forget about pay rises. Housing is the only thing we have which is even remotely indexed to inflation. Bye bye! Maybe it will be easier to get those tiny HDP driven pay rises once housing is gone. Whew, what a relief!
Tell yourself all those lies if it makes you feel better, but you need to get a f"""""g clue if you are believing your own BS.
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What a load of crap kk
As soon as you join the training department you've essentially become a pseudo manager. During any industrial action you WILL be expected to help the company out, no ifs ands or buts! You do recall how in the late 90s several trainers tried to leave the training department, only to be told that they would have to resign from CX all together. Sorry but you've already sold your soul to the devil.
Sorry to burst your little bubble but they ask everyone, not just you!
Bullsh!t , you do it because you want to boost your little ego by having the title Training Check Captain on your business card. Plain and simple
I don't begrudge any of the old training Captains because they joined at a time when industrial relations were ok. I have a huge problem with a lot of the young guys with barely any command time under their belt stepping all over each other to get into the training department. Tell you what skygod, that's even more pathetic than your ill prepared colleagues.
As soon as you join the training department you've essentially become a pseudo manager. During any industrial action you WILL be expected to help the company out, no ifs ands or buts! You do recall how in the late 90s several trainers tried to leave the training department, only to be told that they would have to resign from CX all together. Sorry but you've already sold your soul to the devil.
*I didn't volunteer for anything, I was asked and accepted.*
I do it because I actually enjoy doing it
I don't begrudge any of the old training Captains because they joined at a time when industrial relations were ok. I have a huge problem with a lot of the young guys with barely any command time under their belt stepping all over each other to get into the training department. Tell you what skygod, that's even more pathetic than your ill prepared colleagues.
