"You gotta be kidding me" - Dragon Air Pilot
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"You gotta be kidding me" - Dragon Air Pilot
This was what happened in an evening days ago in the east sector in HK FIR.
HDA A330 departed RCTP checking in ELATO FL340.
AAR (Asiana) Jumbo departed RCSI checking in ELATO FL380.
They are on top of each other in ATC perspective.
After passing ELATO, HDA was instructed to descend FL300 within 30 miles.
Upon reaching, HDA was instructed to reduce speed 250knots.
"HDAXXX, reduce speed 250knots"
"(a brief humiliating laugh) you gota be kidding me"
What a professional pilot from dragon air, role model of the industry.
I dono if anyone could or if it is appropriate to disclose specifics like callsigns or arrival time here.
Would share the conversation that follows after waking up from the world cup matches, lol.
HDA A330 departed RCTP checking in ELATO FL340.
AAR (Asiana) Jumbo departed RCSI checking in ELATO FL380.
They are on top of each other in ATC perspective.
After passing ELATO, HDA was instructed to descend FL300 within 30 miles.
Upon reaching, HDA was instructed to reduce speed 250knots.
"HDAXXX, reduce speed 250knots"
"(a brief humiliating laugh) you gota be kidding me"
What a professional pilot from dragon air, role model of the industry.
I dono if anyone could or if it is appropriate to disclose specifics like callsigns or arrival time here.
Would share the conversation that follows after waking up from the world cup matches, lol.
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No worse than the constant whining of our own crews
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.
What number are we in sequence?
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.
What number are we in sequence?
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
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Bet he can fly a visual approach though! 
Yes, Chinese and HK ATC are extremely frustrating airspaces to operate in. Yes, Boeings are faster than Airbus.
Yes, Chinese and HK ATC are extremely frustrating airspaces to operate in. Yes, Boeings are faster than Airbus.
I'd agree with the KA Pilots frustration. Normally if you are the lower Aircraft you would naturally get to be number one over an Aircraft above you at ELATO. That's what's happened to me many times when I've been the lower or the higher Aircraft.
So what if the Boeing is 20 to 25kts faster....it would still take way too long to get far enough ahead ( usually need at least 10 nm trail )
They should have asked Asiana to slowdown and KA to speed up a bit.
Letting the Aircraft above go first only creates extra separation issues for ATC involving off track headings for the lower slower Aircraft to obtain separation, speed difference isn't enough.
So basically the lower guy gets screwed around way more than necessary.
So what if the Boeing is 20 to 25kts faster....it would still take way too long to get far enough ahead ( usually need at least 10 nm trail )
They should have asked Asiana to slowdown and KA to speed up a bit.
Letting the Aircraft above go first only creates extra separation issues for ATC involving off track headings for the lower slower Aircraft to obtain separation, speed difference isn't enough.
So basically the lower guy gets screwed around way more than necessary.
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Throw a hand grenade in the room and then piss off aye bhead? Perhaps he was making up time at .83 and was very aware of his greater speed compared to the other aircraft at Econ which wasn't factored into the equation by ATC? There's often a lot more to equation when outbursts are made.
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When it's busy, 250 seems to be the standard no matter which direction you're coming from these days. I have gotten over it by just expecting it every time. I feel for the KA guys though. They gotta put up with it more than most at CX.
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Professional
Perhaps u should spend less time watching soccer...
The higher A/C has a higher TAS, once more its higher possible IAS compounded by the TAS makes it a no brainer decesion for ATC.
Ok now lets read something important.
The higher A/C has a higher TAS, once more its higher possible IAS compounded by the TAS makes it a no brainer decesion for ATC.
Ok now lets read something important.
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BHead,
You have no idea what the dragon pilot had to put up with that day . Technically and logically with similar speed aircraft the lower one should have preference but not always .
I have to admit that I have been guilty of venting frustration at HK ATC when they give seemingly ridiculous instructions .
ATC can you fly 320kt descent
Yes.
Okay transition to 320kts in descent
Not 2000ft into descent slow to 250kts . Followed by speed up, slow down, speed up again vectors and finally take up the hold
Frustration you bet ! so cut the dragon pilot some slack he wasn't rude, simply expressing his outrage at being the one to take the hit when clearly thought he should be number one
For all the others making joking comments about Asiana please consider how you would feel if it was your airline or friends that people were making fun of and edit your posts accordingly . It was a tragic accident and there but for the grace of God ....
We should be professionals here and not take cheap shots at other crew
As for BHead this post should never have been published every action has consequences
You have no idea what the dragon pilot had to put up with that day . Technically and logically with similar speed aircraft the lower one should have preference but not always .
I have to admit that I have been guilty of venting frustration at HK ATC when they give seemingly ridiculous instructions .
ATC can you fly 320kt descent
Yes.
Okay transition to 320kts in descent
Not 2000ft into descent slow to 250kts . Followed by speed up, slow down, speed up again vectors and finally take up the hold
Frustration you bet ! so cut the dragon pilot some slack he wasn't rude, simply expressing his outrage at being the one to take the hit when clearly thought he should be number one
For all the others making joking comments about Asiana please consider how you would feel if it was your airline or friends that people were making fun of and edit your posts accordingly . It was a tragic accident and there but for the grace of God ....
We should be professionals here and not take cheap shots at other crew
As for BHead this post should never have been published every action has consequences
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Result was, no vectoring needed, reducing the KA to 250knots at a lower level was already enough to create the spacing. Put the jumbo at higher behind an airbus at lower level requires lot more effort for the controller and the pilots.
And for all those delays for DOTMI traffic, screw the PRC it is nothing to do with ATC in HK.
And amazed to see professional pilot here thinking such a manner on frequency is ok or understandable.
Also amazed to see pilots think they know how to do ATC. Maybe that's why that pilot could make such an transmission on air and maybe thats also why some other pilots think it is ok.
Lucky majority of the pilot are nice and cooperative.
And Sync, oooh it must be very serious consequences, I am looking forward to it.
And for all those delays for DOTMI traffic, screw the PRC it is nothing to do with ATC in HK.
And amazed to see professional pilot here thinking such a manner on frequency is ok or understandable.
Also amazed to see pilots think they know how to do ATC. Maybe that's why that pilot could make such an transmission on air and maybe thats also why some other pilots think it is ok.
Lucky majority of the pilot are nice and cooperative.
And Sync, oooh it must be very serious consequences, I am looking forward to it.
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What number are we in sequence?
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????
Twotigers you are the only one I've ever heard defend the ineptitude that is Chinese ATC. That tells me, and everyone else reading, that you are somewhat clueless and inept yourself.
If Chinese ATC would be more proactive in giving you a sequence and reason for the delay they would not have to put up with such questions. This is required information in order to best make a decision, if they can't handle it, then they should be doing something else.
Next time I'm holding position on the runway in PVG and ATC clears me for takeoff I will tell them "standby, expect a delay". I'm sure they won't query me or ask for an estimate of when I will be ready for takeoff.
No worse than the constant whining of our own crews
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.
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It never ceases to amaze me how personally some of the guys around here take ATC instructions.
Who f*&king cares what your number is in the sequence? It's the one thing you're not accountable for. Enjoy it.
You're paid to fly, ATC's paid to tell you where to fly and someone else pays for gas and overtime.
It's either down to some serious god-complex issues, or some guys' life at home is way more fascinating than the cockpit chit-chat would let you imagine...
Who f*&king cares what your number is in the sequence? It's the one thing you're not accountable for. Enjoy it.
You're paid to fly, ATC's paid to tell you where to fly and someone else pays for gas and overtime.
It's either down to some serious god-complex issues, or some guys' life at home is way more fascinating than the cockpit chit-chat would let you imagine...
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SQUACK,
Actually it shows your ignorance.
They are NOT valid question when you're asking a party who doesn't know the answers. It's not up to the ATC you speak to. They have no idea.
The last thing they need are 30 airplanes calling every 10 minutes demanding updates.
Your attitude is an excellent example of the total ****** CX mentality that has got us here. You really are an exceptional example.
Actually it shows your ignorance.
They are NOT valid question when you're asking a party who doesn't know the answers. It's not up to the ATC you speak to. They have no idea.
The last thing they need are 30 airplanes calling every 10 minutes demanding updates.
Your attitude is an excellent example of the total ****** CX mentality that has got us here. You really are an exceptional example.
Props are for boats!
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Yes don't question ATC.
Even if they give the robotic instruction " Maintain 160Knots to 4 DME contact Tower now". When you are 3 miles behind the only Turbo prop in Hong Kong GOV J31/32 or what ever it is.
I'm with Yonosoy on this, just chill guys. Go with the flow, and if it turns into a doozy fill in the forms.
Don't blame the ATC guys either Mainland or Hong Kong they do it because it is written. Have a look at the Chinese AIP and read the routing descriptions. You will understand how black and white (ie. remain on the Airway A461) they are, and how it transcends into their daily operation.
Even if they give the robotic instruction " Maintain 160Knots to 4 DME contact Tower now". When you are 3 miles behind the only Turbo prop in Hong Kong GOV J31/32 or what ever it is.
I'm with Yonosoy on this, just chill guys. Go with the flow, and if it turns into a doozy fill in the forms.
Don't blame the ATC guys either Mainland or Hong Kong they do it because it is written. Have a look at the Chinese AIP and read the routing descriptions. You will understand how black and white (ie. remain on the Airway A461) they are, and how it transcends into their daily operation.
China is basically a military dictatorship. Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG copy for twenty minutes and half the country's airspace gets shut down. Their civvy controllers have little more knowledge of what's going on than we CX or KA heroes.
It astounds me how sometimes even FO's that I operate with get worked up about China and Hong Kong delays, speed control etc. I doubt very much if they, or the captains that get worked up, are substantial shareholders in their respective airlines.
I sometimes wonder about these misplaced feelings of outrage and 'ownership' when in the end, pilots are treated by their respective companies as contracted 'staff' on ever-decreasing conditions, and a necessary evil.
Who cares? Bring a good book, do the South China Post crossword, or think of the overtime.
It astounds me how sometimes even FO's that I operate with get worked up about China and Hong Kong delays, speed control etc. I doubt very much if they, or the captains that get worked up, are substantial shareholders in their respective airlines.
I sometimes wonder about these misplaced feelings of outrage and 'ownership' when in the end, pilots are treated by their respective companies as contracted 'staff' on ever-decreasing conditions, and a necessary evil.
Who cares? Bring a good book, do the South China Post crossword, or think of the overtime.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 21st Jun 2014 at 09:28.
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Is it really such a scornful attribute to 'care' about the frustrations of operating in and out of China??? I'm not saying it's wise or good for your health to care because so much of it is out of our control but as professional aviators when we see a clear and obvious, efficient and intelligent alternative that's denied time and time again occasionally there will be outbursts. I don't condone them but I can understand how they arise.
Ah No 8, you don't know the big picture - that's the problem. Maybe your intelligent alternative isn't that clever either. Do as your told and move on (I know it's hard but that's what we should do).
I have, in the past, called ATC and spoken to the controller who annoyed me and there was a good explanation for why he did what he did. Try that, maybe.
I have, in the past, called ATC and spoken to the controller who annoyed me and there was a good explanation for why he did what he did. Try that, maybe.