Another degradation of our T&C
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Liam
Yep. Your assumptions are correct. The pay deal and the staff travel offer aren't linked. The timing appears to be coincidental. The vote on the 30th is only for the pay deal. Although you can bet there will be some fireworks at the meeting regarding the staff travel deal.
The DPA negotiated the pay deal and that needs a vote. The staff travel deal wasn't negotiated. It was just presented by management one day. I think the introduction is not until next year so everyone will have a while to decide. We don't have a final date yet to accept by. Actually the info we have been given is pretty threadbare. There are a lot of questions being asked with very few answers coming back. Hopefully we learn more this week. Apparently it's a once only offer. You take it and can't go back or you reject it and stay as you are for the rest of your KA carrier.
There may be a few guys making trips to the registry office. It's certainly a quick and easy way to solve their problems. Although not very romantic
The locals don't get the travel fund so it's just the CLS issue for them. Interestingly the standard contract which has been in place for all new joiners in the last 3 years or so does not recognize CLS. It appears KA is falling back in line with the CX masters rather than the other way round. I would say CX is trying to ring fence the remaining crew with CLS.
The DPA negotiated the pay deal and that needs a vote. The staff travel deal wasn't negotiated. It was just presented by management one day. I think the introduction is not until next year so everyone will have a while to decide. We don't have a final date yet to accept by. Actually the info we have been given is pretty threadbare. There are a lot of questions being asked with very few answers coming back. Hopefully we learn more this week. Apparently it's a once only offer. You take it and can't go back or you reject it and stay as you are for the rest of your KA carrier.
There may be a few guys making trips to the registry office. It's certainly a quick and easy way to solve their problems. Although not very romantic
The locals don't get the travel fund so it's just the CLS issue for them. Interestingly the standard contract which has been in place for all new joiners in the last 3 years or so does not recognize CLS. It appears KA is falling back in line with the CX masters rather than the other way round. I would say CX is trying to ring fence the remaining crew with CLS.
Trevfly, it is infantile comments such as your last that do no service to the advancement of pay and conditions for BOTH KA and Cx.
Truly, if the travelling public had any inkling of the juvenile nature of some of the inhabitants forward of the flight deck door they would catch the bloody train !
Give yourself an uppercut.
Truly, if the travelling public had any inkling of the juvenile nature of some of the inhabitants forward of the flight deck door they would catch the bloody train !
Give yourself an uppercut.
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It's pretty obvious as the number of Oz based KA commuters goes through the roof as to why there is a big push now by the DPA to get KA DOJ for CX staff travel. Anyone who says it benefits CX crew because we all want to jump on the KA network is taking the piss.
Biggest loss here is to the CX new joiners who knew their package when they joined but now find they have lost 600 places in seniority when they rock up at staff travel.
Any newbies pondering AOA membership won't be happy with the change. The DPA on the other hand have pulled off a master stroke in taking from CX to give to it's members.
DPA 1 AOA 0
Biggest loss here is to the CX new joiners who knew their package when they joined but now find they have lost 600 places in seniority when they rock up at staff travel.
Any newbies pondering AOA membership won't be happy with the change. The DPA on the other hand have pulled off a master stroke in taking from CX to give to it's members.
DPA 1 AOA 0
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Thru the roof? Really?
Perhaps there are 450 ish KA Pilots.
A third of them are local.
Of the remaining 300 or so.. over 60% are from countries other than Austrailia.
Out of those 120 left.. maybe half of them have more than 10 years service.
So.. 60 guys .. perhaps , likely less are NOT thru the roof.
Given as previously posted, we ALREADY allowed both the Freighter Captains & all the Ex-KA ground staff to keep their DOJ for staff travel when they transferred, you'd really wish to penalize the pilots?
You really do buy into this divide and conquer nonsense.
What should have happened at the merger/take over whatever, is everyone who was at KA received that date as their DOJ the CX system.
That still could be done & would seem in keeping with fairness for both.
The KA crews would still have 7 or so years of seniority, so any new hire hello kitty receptionist couldn't bump them, but have a
fair place against a CX guy with 8 years service to our brand.
That wasn't done and won't be so they can play us off each other. Buy a clue.
Perhaps there are 450 ish KA Pilots.
A third of them are local.
Of the remaining 300 or so.. over 60% are from countries other than Austrailia.
Out of those 120 left.. maybe half of them have more than 10 years service.
So.. 60 guys .. perhaps , likely less are NOT thru the roof.
Given as previously posted, we ALREADY allowed both the Freighter Captains & all the Ex-KA ground staff to keep their DOJ for staff travel when they transferred, you'd really wish to penalize the pilots?
You really do buy into this divide and conquer nonsense.
What should have happened at the merger/take over whatever, is everyone who was at KA received that date as their DOJ the CX system.
That still could be done & would seem in keeping with fairness for both.
The KA crews would still have 7 or so years of seniority, so any new hire hello kitty receptionist couldn't bump them, but have a
fair place against a CX guy with 8 years service to our brand.
That wasn't done and won't be so they can play us off each other. Buy a clue.
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I find it pure genius that CX has again somehow managed to have us fight amongst ourselves, again.
Dragonair pilots are not to blame, neither is their union.
It is CX that offered them something that they should've cleared with CX pilots first.
Divide and conquer.
Dragonair pilots are not to blame, neither is their union.
It is CX that offered them something that they should've cleared with CX pilots first.
Divide and conquer.
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If only it was that convenient.
If you're in the AOA you'd know that the KA pilots put it to the DPA that they wanted staff travel on CX from their DOJ at KA. The company never offered the travel, the DPA asked for it. Conveniently the AOA wasn't informed until after the company had accepted the DPAs proposal. It was pointed out at the time to the DPA that junior CX pilots would get shafted.
If anyone can give me an example of the AOA getting something that involved screwing over DPA members to get it, I'd love to hear.
If you're in the AOA you'd know that the KA pilots put it to the DPA that they wanted staff travel on CX from their DOJ at KA. The company never offered the travel, the DPA asked for it. Conveniently the AOA wasn't informed until after the company had accepted the DPAs proposal. It was pointed out at the time to the DPA that junior CX pilots would get shafted.
If anyone can give me an example of the AOA getting something that involved screwing over DPA members to get it, I'd love to hear.
Did you protest as loud when KA non-flying staff where given DOJ staff travel at CX? The AOA knew full well of this and did they protest?
And don't BS us, professionally immature folks like yourself have been banging on for years that KA was a take-over and that KA pilots should be integrated straight to the bottom of a CX seniority list.
Personally, I've said it from day one, KA pilots should stay away from any integration talks until CX pilots wise up as evidenced by the poster above. And why integrate anyway? There is no advantage I can see whatsoever.
And don't BS us, professionally immature folks like yourself have been banging on for years that KA was a take-over and that KA pilots should be integrated straight to the bottom of a CX seniority list.
Personally, I've said it from day one, KA pilots should stay away from any integration talks until CX pilots wise up as evidenced by the poster above. And why integrate anyway? There is no advantage I can see whatsoever.
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Professionally immature? Seriously?
It would have taken a single email from the DPA to the AOA to say this is what we're negotiating and this is how it affects your members. And I'd guess most AOA members would have been ok with it for the greater good of the pilot body.
And you have to ditch that chip on your shoulder. AFAIK yes KA was taken over, the CX parent company acquired a majority shareholding in KA, there was no share swap, no legal consideration of both companies into one entity. But the thing is no-one at CX cares, no really, we don't. Both airlines benefit from each other.
I didn't mention KA starting at the bottom of seniority. You did. It's ridiculous.
The DPA was desperate to get the staff travel through at all costs, that doesn't appear to me like your pilot body wants to avoid integration.
It would have taken a single email from the DPA to the AOA to say this is what we're negotiating and this is how it affects your members. And I'd guess most AOA members would have been ok with it for the greater good of the pilot body.
And you have to ditch that chip on your shoulder. AFAIK yes KA was taken over, the CX parent company acquired a majority shareholding in KA, there was no share swap, no legal consideration of both companies into one entity. But the thing is no-one at CX cares, no really, we don't. Both airlines benefit from each other.
I didn't mention KA starting at the bottom of seniority. You did. It's ridiculous.
The DPA was desperate to get the staff travel through at all costs, that doesn't appear to me like your pilot body wants to avoid integration.
Anotherday
Staff travel was not negotiated at all - it came from left field.
Yes, I'm sure that the KA pilot and flight attendant unions asked why KA ground staff and management get expanded staff travel privileges. I understand it came on deaf ears since the take over as the managers over the other side of the table enjoyed the improvements and had no interest in sharing.
Conspiracy theories abound such as it is to sweeten a low-ball pay offer and the fact that KA is expanding rapidly over regional routes which effects CX Staff.
Pilots on both sides are pawns and have little control over staff travel so please don't try an incite a fur ball between pilot groups who should be working far more closely together.
Nope, most of us are happy too. Please don't believe a majority want your bases or your flying. The take up rate was so low of KA-CX transfers on take over it shocked your management. They probably even had hurt feelings all of our cadets came back. Even Geoff, the Chief Pilot we were sent, wanted another term over this way…..so yes, a few of our guys will push agendas to try and get over your way and I'm sure a few of your guys may want our expansion ( especially the expansion over your routes ) but for the most, CX is not a desired place to be.
Loopdeloop
Yes, your right, here and the B scale bars of mid-levels. Far more mature and harmonious company at the gay bar.
Staff travel was not negotiated at all - it came from left field.
Yes, I'm sure that the KA pilot and flight attendant unions asked why KA ground staff and management get expanded staff travel privileges. I understand it came on deaf ears since the take over as the managers over the other side of the table enjoyed the improvements and had no interest in sharing.
Conspiracy theories abound such as it is to sweeten a low-ball pay offer and the fact that KA is expanding rapidly over regional routes which effects CX Staff.
Pilots on both sides are pawns and have little control over staff travel so please don't try an incite a fur ball between pilot groups who should be working far more closely together.
Nope, most of us are happy too. Please don't believe a majority want your bases or your flying. The take up rate was so low of KA-CX transfers on take over it shocked your management. They probably even had hurt feelings all of our cadets came back. Even Geoff, the Chief Pilot we were sent, wanted another term over this way…..so yes, a few of our guys will push agendas to try and get over your way and I'm sure a few of your guys may want our expansion ( especially the expansion over your routes ) but for the most, CX is not a desired place to be.
Loopdeloop
Yes, your right, here and the B scale bars of mid-levels. Far more mature and harmonious company at the gay bar.
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Anotherday
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Can I fill you in with some info?
When CX bought KA back in 2006 we got our first pay rise in 8 years. Life was good.
Then we lost our entire freighter fleet to CX. ( sure I know some ka guys joined Cx but the majority flying those aircraft are Cx guys).
We lost routes to Bangkok, Tokyo plus the planned Sydney flights were canned ( all operated by CX).
Next all other staff other than "us flying staff" were given the CX staff travel DOJ deal.
Next we gave CX some of our slots to PVG and PEK. ( operated by CX pilots)
Our over all fleet size had shrunk by 30% and command upgrades ground to a halt. They would take 6 years to start again.
Next CX started to operate "our routes"under "our call sign" to Taiwan. We don't have a scope clause so we couldn't successfully protest, but no one in the AOA seemed to mind that you were doing our flying and slowing up our commands and growth. This still happens now.
The basic feeling amongst KA crew is that the AOA doesn't really give a damn about us. To be honest why should they, they represent the interests of CX crew. Even when integration is mentioned we are told " that's fine, join at the bottom of our list". ( personally I think we have nothing to gain by integrating but it's galling none the less). So yes there are examples of the AOA screwing over KA pilots.
Supposedly we've been one company group since 2006.
Also
The DPA hasn't suddenly asked for staff travel equality. It has been every committees position since we were left out back in 07. This is not something new and previous AOA coms were aware. It's just that finally someone in management has recognized the disparity and corrected it.
For info KA has 470 pilots. 270 were employed before Cx bought KA. Of those 270 number 200 was employed 04, number 100 was 01 and number 1 was employed in 85. It's not exactly the vast invading hoards of your nightmares.
Can I fill you in with some info?
When CX bought KA back in 2006 we got our first pay rise in 8 years. Life was good.
Then we lost our entire freighter fleet to CX. ( sure I know some ka guys joined Cx but the majority flying those aircraft are Cx guys).
We lost routes to Bangkok, Tokyo plus the planned Sydney flights were canned ( all operated by CX).
Next all other staff other than "us flying staff" were given the CX staff travel DOJ deal.
Next we gave CX some of our slots to PVG and PEK. ( operated by CX pilots)
Our over all fleet size had shrunk by 30% and command upgrades ground to a halt. They would take 6 years to start again.
Next CX started to operate "our routes"under "our call sign" to Taiwan. We don't have a scope clause so we couldn't successfully protest, but no one in the AOA seemed to mind that you were doing our flying and slowing up our commands and growth. This still happens now.
The basic feeling amongst KA crew is that the AOA doesn't really give a damn about us. To be honest why should they, they represent the interests of CX crew. Even when integration is mentioned we are told " that's fine, join at the bottom of our list". ( personally I think we have nothing to gain by integrating but it's galling none the less). So yes there are examples of the AOA screwing over KA pilots.
Supposedly we've been one company group since 2006.
Also
The DPA hasn't suddenly asked for staff travel equality. It has been every committees position since we were left out back in 07. This is not something new and previous AOA coms were aware. It's just that finally someone in management has recognized the disparity and corrected it.
For info KA has 470 pilots. 270 were employed before Cx bought KA. Of those 270 number 200 was employed 04, number 100 was 01 and number 1 was employed in 85. It's not exactly the vast invading hoards of your nightmares.
I have it on very good authority from within the AOA that it was management that proposed the staff travel deal to the DPA at the last moment to try and sweeten what is a crap pay deal. It would appear that it may be a Swire objective to have a “Group Travel” policy rather than separate travel policies for the different groups.
It should also be pointed out that almost all KA ground staff are actually CX employees. That is why they get CX staff travel based on their DOJ.
If Swire intend to have a “Group Travel” policy it should be assumed that the same deal will be offered to CX employees on KA flights. As has been pointed out by giggerty, 100 pilots of the current KA pilot group were employed by KA prior to 2001. On the other hand about 1200 of the current CX pilot group were employed by CX prior to 2001. The granting of priority 25 staff travel to KA pilots on CX flight may not have a huge effect to CX pilots but the granting of priority 25 staff travel to CX pilots on KA flights will have a huge effect on KA pilots trying to staff travel on their own flights. Now extrapolate that out if all CX staff get the same thing. This isn’t a win for KA pilots at all. It is quite frankly an attempt by management to polish a turd.
It should also be pointed out that almost all KA ground staff are actually CX employees. That is why they get CX staff travel based on their DOJ.
If Swire intend to have a “Group Travel” policy it should be assumed that the same deal will be offered to CX employees on KA flights. As has been pointed out by giggerty, 100 pilots of the current KA pilot group were employed by KA prior to 2001. On the other hand about 1200 of the current CX pilot group were employed by CX prior to 2001. The granting of priority 25 staff travel to KA pilots on CX flight may not have a huge effect to CX pilots but the granting of priority 25 staff travel to CX pilots on KA flights will have a huge effect on KA pilots trying to staff travel on their own flights. Now extrapolate that out if all CX staff get the same thing. This isn’t a win for KA pilots at all. It is quite frankly an attempt by management to polish a turd.
giggerty,
Your an idiot for picking your start date, how many tristars did KA fly to Taiwan, Malaysia, or China ? I know CX did a lot when they routes were given to them.
The made scramble to get slots in HKG has resulted in a large fleet growth in KA, give you a hint, time to command at CX is 5-8 years higher, pay is lower, 13th month does not appear, no travel fund, and $2000 bonus if you were not sick. Wanna jump on this Air China bus ?
You are so frig-gen short sighted, they are giving the employees SFA, selling off assets like you would not believe to Swire companies with unbreakable contracts that generate massive profits for Swire at the expense of CX/KA.
WHO IS THE FOOL ?
KA was purchased, not merged. They ARE a 100% CX SUBSIDIARY.
Good news is the forecast issued by the observatory talks between CX and CX staff is they will be offered priority 24 on CX and KA for staff, and 25 for companions. Naturally all based on DOJ CX. The forecast is only valid withing 5 decimeters of CX city reference point. The forecast is due to expire in good faith just before the talks in 2035.
D
:sad 
Your an idiot for picking your start date, how many tristars did KA fly to Taiwan, Malaysia, or China ? I know CX did a lot when they routes were given to them.
The made scramble to get slots in HKG has resulted in a large fleet growth in KA, give you a hint, time to command at CX is 5-8 years higher, pay is lower, 13th month does not appear, no travel fund, and $2000 bonus if you were not sick. Wanna jump on this Air China bus ?
You are so frig-gen short sighted, they are giving the employees SFA, selling off assets like you would not believe to Swire companies with unbreakable contracts that generate massive profits for Swire at the expense of CX/KA.
WHO IS THE FOOL ?
KA was purchased, not merged. They ARE a 100% CX SUBSIDIARY.
Good news is the forecast issued by the observatory talks between CX and CX staff is they will be offered priority 24 on CX and KA for staff, and 25 for companions. Naturally all based on DOJ CX. The forecast is only valid withing 5 decimeters of CX city reference point. The forecast is due to expire in good faith just before the talks in 2035.
D:sad
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In January 1990, Cathay Pacific, Swire Group and CITIC Pacific acquired an 89 percent
In January 1990, Cathay Pacific, Swire Group and CITIC Pacific acquired an 89 percent stake in the airline, with CITIC Pacific holding 38 percent; while the family of the airline's chairman Kuang-Piu Chao reduced their holding from 22 percent to 6 percent, with the remainder held by minor shareholders. The change of ownership saw Cathay Pacific transferring its Beijing and Shanghai routes to Dragonair, along with a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar on a lease basis.
That's TWENTY FOUR YEARS AGO!
That's TWENTY FOUR YEARS AGO!