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Bases no longer an option.

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Bases no longer an option.

Old 5th Jul 2013, 08:55
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 233
@ Cpt Underpants

I apologize I may have not been clear.

You are correct in what you say.

Those CPT should not be allowed to continue as Cpt's in HK Period!! (As u put, and I agree)

However if we cannot prevent that from happening, via all forces and unity at our disposal.

Don't give up hope as there is still one positive to be gained:
We can use them as pawn's for "our own good" (As a lobby of local terms is a valid treat) Since they are forced back to HK, insist on Expat terms.

(The fact that they benefit from this is not "relevant" to our protection long term)

As a matter of interest, how many are still CN on local terms?
This is a big no no.. !

and we have missed the boat! as did the "monkey's " missed the banana's.
and in the future there'll be more monkey's replacing us that have no idea about the fruits that can be got!!

By then I'll be long gone, and so should you. In the meantime let's fight using the grey matter upstairs not the ego's from below.

As I once heard a FCN ex CDG From neighbouring country, say. " I have too much ego at stake to move to the right seat. I dont a need comfy place to live in, as long was I got 4 bars, that's all that matters. "

Hard but we need to look through folks like this and reconise an opportunity when it comes up. If we miss it, it's gone and the precedence will be set.

So in mean time we need to change our mind set and stop behaving like that Arse, and be ready for the next curve ball trying to undermine our fully commited professional career for the sake of off shore tax free xxxxx that always operate in the greys of the law.

Last edited by crewsunite; 5th Jul 2013 at 13:42.
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Old 5th Jul 2013, 23:08
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 250
"As I once heard a FCN ex CDG From neighbouring country, say. " I have too much ego at stake to move to the right seat. I dont a need comfy place to live in, as long was I got 4 bars, that's all that matters. "

Really....I find that hard to believe anyone on the Paris base would have said that notwithstanding your translation.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 02:09
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 956
Totally plausible. Just cast your mind back to the histrionics when some of our number had to move from the 744 to the (horror of horrors) Airbus!!!
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 09:04
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 131
OK Cdr Shreddies, I'll bite. The histrionics, as you put it, were caused by a) being force drafted {some out of seniority}, b) they had just spent the better part of the previous year doing their command upgrade and then had to complete yet another convex, within the space of 12 months, and c)" horror of horrors" the airbus roster is frankly shite with shite aspects, which is why most of them had elected to do their conversion on the -400, where if there had been any suggestion of an airbus course, they would have bided their time and done their upgrade intra-Boeing on the 777. Note you've been here a while, not as long as I have I doubt; interesting to see what histrionics would have ensued if it had happened to you.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 09:42
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 465
Ref ego story: great smear- any evidence?
My bullsh1tt meter just spiked.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 10:02
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 131
I can well and truly believe it; you patently haven't flown with too many of the master race....don't forget, quite a few of these individuals have the seniority to hold a pax command..it unfortunately has to be on the -bus, and that (aside from the kudos of having 4 stripes on the freighter, and commuting possibly) is why most of them have elected to stay on the 74F on inferior terms..the only winner being the company of course..
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 12:30
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 315
What has kitty got to lose with opening an UK/US base?

Why are we waiting?
Why are we waiting?

Last edited by Soul planet; 6th Jul 2013 at 12:32.
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Old 6th Jul 2013, 12:38
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 233
@ firewall

I don't want to spell it out.
The origin: Jacobs gave the hint in his 1st sentence and as I did in mine (same place) u can piece the rest via ASL.

This comment was made before the mention of moving to the airbus. Thus it did not factor in his original thinking. Now it may be convenient cover to his ego.

Anyway it's only a small part of the problem.
The main issue is us as a group, we need to debate more and use our collective idea's and synergy to protect erosion and build our careers " COS"

Do any of you have solutions?
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 03:53
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 237
It's not only about FCN. Everyone should be treated with due regards to his seniority, period.

The real tragedy here is not the housing for those guys/girls, it's the fact that they were allowed to remain in the left seat and undermine all their colleagues who are junior to them.

It doesn't really matter that they are already CN, as there are tons of FOs who could do the job just as well given the chance.

The only fair way to deal with ANY issues, is to respect the seniority order.

To our management: you'll never hear anyone complain that the seniority order was respected.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 15:28
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 233
Man Base

So if they close MAN or other FR base, please guys insure those Jnr go to the left seat!

As we don't want more Cpt flying on Local terms esp when forced back to HK.

Luckily with PH mess those plans have been put on hold for awhile, but coming no doubt.

So in the mean time lets get a vote to get those Jnr. PAR FN CPT's into the right seat.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 17:30
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 131
You're missing the point; aside frm the fact that you're also wishing misfortune on someone else, most ( if not all) hold pax seniority, or are damn close to doing so.
They're just choosing not to exercise it as the aircraft type change (ie the bus) doesn't suit them.
And we all have to dream I suppose; however the previous comments re seniority are absolutely right. The only thing we have to hang our hats on is seniority and it should be respected for everything. Sadly a bit late in the day for our employers' to learn that now.

Last edited by jacobus; 9th Jul 2013 at 17:35.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 21:07
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Happy Valley
Age: 43
Posts: 38

Well I paused for a long time before posting...but enough of this sanctimonius sxxxte. Many of you who so religiously respected seniority did so because you were 'Golden Handcuffed' to housing in HK or did not have the right to live in a Base.

For some the best deal was Freighter Command on a Base. Good luck to them, they passed a CX Command Course and if that was the best option(and then the AOA did not prevent it or stop it) so be it. No different now from someone refusing a Airbus Command 'cos the roster is fab.....

If I was them given the vitriol displayed here I would find a way to make $24,000 work.....and not give one of the colonial convict descendants a thing, cos at the end of the day in CX it is clear 'FU I'm alright Jack' is the only religion preached and observed.

Anyway from what I hear the MAN guys are OK 'cos when the 350 comes it will be a type change on Base........hang in there boys.

P.S. I hear the freighter rosters are pretty cool at the moment....20/20 hindsight is a wonderful tool for envy.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 21:11
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: on thin ice
Posts: 146
Give me hope Johanna...

Just because I'm bored, I'll throw this into the discussion.

Seniority for airline pilots has had it's day in the sun. Starting in the Earnest K. Gann era of line numbers until present day. It's played it's role, now it's time to go global.

Seniority in any "profession" was limited to airline pilots. Doctors, surgeons, lawyers (start the jokes), and engineers never had such a beast. They gladly worked their way up in the hospital, in the firm, in the company and could move across to a higher, better-paid position if they held the correct qualities. Ever hear of a head surgeon leaving to become the first officer surgeon in another hospital?

Pilots held on to seniority to the point of breaking up companies (TWA, Eastern...). Seniority was vital for remuneration, yes, but also bid lines, number of holidays and sick days etc. It was created under regulation when you prayed to get hired by a major and stay there the rest of your career. When deregulation hit (not a good day imho), the work world started to change. When global airlines (emirates, korean, nca, cpa, asl--ooops) started to broaden their workforce base, it suddenly became possible to jumpship and choose from a buffet of T&Cs deciding which might fit your lifestyle or pocketbook the best.

I maintain that if we, as global pilot community, abolished seniority, our T&Cs would rise within a couple of years. We could head over to the sandbox for a few years, see what's around the corner and head over to someplace else. It might even be fun.

Or stick around and enjoy the added perks.

Seniority doesn't provide you a promotion, it gives you the shot at obtaining one. You still need to walk the walk. And why would I (or a Paris-based FCN) want to move to the right seat if I changed companies? Therefore, why would I change companies?

So, the with the golden handcuffs firmly in place, I stick it out eternally hoping for the pay rise, better rostering practices, fluffier duvets and I whing at the gay bar and on the flight deck until I'm suddenly 62 and 1/2. No thanks.

Of course, I don't agree with the all euphorian stuff I just wrote, but grasping the seniority tree in hopes its growth will pull you up is foolish as well.

Have fun with this one!

Standby for discussion topic #2--why moved FCNs should stay in the seat they earned and garner full expat benefits as their time in service dictates. Topic #3 may be why anyone taking an airbus command whilst others ahead of them on the SENIORITY list wait for a triple are equally leaping ahead of seniority just as anyone who joined as a DEFO jumped the SENIORITY list ahead of any SO who joined prior.

Last edited by sodapop; 10th Jul 2013 at 06:50. Reason: typo
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 03:50
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 234
you are on thin ice


You really are on thin ice. But I'm glad that you "don't agree with the all uphorian (sic) stuff" you wrote, because if it came to pass you would not be euphoric.

Do you think for one second that airline managements will give up seniority? They won't because it does exactly what prevents you from doing things like, "We could head over to the sandbox for a few years, see what's around the corner and head over to someplace else."

Deregulation and greedy looters led to the American scenario you mention, not pilots sticking to seniority.

I'll keep my seniority thanks so that a greedy airline (like CX?) will not bring in cheap pilots with 4 bars or promote junior guys over my FO and SO colleagues.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 06:56
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: on thin ice
Posts: 146
Amused one,

Don't think I said anything about seniority contributing to deregulation. If it never happened then seniority would still be a somewhat valid concept, in each closed market if you will.

Of course, airline management will never give up the seniority concept.

You are also correct in that for a while it would there would be demographic shift with potentially underpaying job offers to be had but instead of seniority protecting the T&Cs it should be IFALPA on a global level.

Money for nothing, chicks for free buddy.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 07:13
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 315
Are you serious? Time for annual med check of your taste buds.

Did someone just said Mong Kok chickens from KFC? Those coated with heavy baking & frying powder but nothing on the inside? Not golden at all. Thankfully I have had better meals at other restaurants. Check mate.

Last edited by Soul planet; 10th Jul 2013 at 07:30.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 14:52
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 598
Did someone just said Mong Kok chickens from KFC? Those coated with heavy baking & frying powder but nothing on the inside? Not golden at all. Thankfully I have had better meals at other restaurants. Check mate.
Well, that's it then. Difficult to argue against that sort of logic.

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Old 10th Jul 2013, 15:48
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: up from under
Posts: 36
That is, if you consider ugly oily boney chickens chickens.
Try telling your homemates you eat Mong Kong KFC... HAHAHA

Me no likey KFC too.
Worst of all fastfood available

Last edited by Flyer jazz; 11th Jul 2013 at 00:35.
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 02:47
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 762
Back to the right seat

There seems to be a great reluctance in CX (both pilots & management) to the concept of a captain going back to being an FO.

Maybe it's because of our "common jet salary", but if you look at airlines in Europe where the pay scales are different for different fleets, the salary for a narrow-body captain can be less than a wide-body FO, so it's a normal situation for a more senior person to take the FO slot. Then when the narrow-body captain has enough seniority, he can become a wide-body FO.

So, why the angst in CX about going back to FO?

Pride? - definitely, from both pilots & management

The command course? - definitely. After surviving that roller coaster, who would want to submit to another one? Command courses are a cost item, so management don't want anyone doing another one unnecessarily.

The checking system? - notice I said checking, not training. Why would anyone want to go back to being an FO under the current system? All it needs is some checker who's in a bad mood because of his pending divorce to screw the guy with a poison pen. Then what? Sorry, you were a captain, but now because you're not a good FO, we won't make you a captain again

Why isn't there a structure or agreement in place? The ex-based FRTR captains take their position in seniority. Those that return to being an FO shouldn't need to do a command course again once they achieve seniority, just a type conversion to the left seat of whichever fleet they go to (in seniority), the same as if they were converting as a captain from another fleet.

How hard can it be??

I'd like to hear from an actual FRTR captain that's been forced to return to HK without pax command seniority. Would you rather stay as a local-terms FRTR captain, or non-local terms as an FO for a few years until you have command seniority?
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 07:53
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: on thin ice
Posts: 146
Just the facts....

As of latest count, approx 136 FCNs, 17 who hold pax cmd seniority if they came to hkg and approx 14 who are within 2 years of holding pax cmd.

I believe Jacobus was referring only to ex-Paris-based FCNs when he made his comment. How many ex-Paris FCNs are still frtr only in hkg? 5-6 with 1-2 of those not making the trip and in a legal limbo status. 2-3 of the remaining hold or are within months of pax seniority leaving 2 guys more than 2 years away.

Accepting less money/conditions than an FO? FCNs make 15% more than an FO with the same time in service on the unified pay scale.

As to commuting rosters (not sure where the original reference to this was made), I think the idea would be to operate to and from the prospective port of choice, not PT.

Interestingly, had a bbq with an old friend who flies FedEx based in hkg. A few years ago not many wanted the hkg package so it went very junior for command. Guys with 5-6 years "jumped" ahead of others to come to hkg in the left seat. Normal upgrade time is 10 -12 years at the moment. Of course, if they go back to Memphis or wherever it is in the right seat.

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