Hong Kong Airlines to London/Gatwick
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Algol, my apologies.
I did not consider the VIP effect.
Makes it more attractive then. A full business cabin (easier embark/desembark, etc.), with OnAir inflight connectivity for a lower price than CX.
Let's see if the business is sustainable. In my side of the world (Europe) full business class operations resulted often in failures. The only exception being (maybe) BA LCY-JFK on a 32 seats A319
I did not consider the VIP effect.
Makes it more attractive then. A full business cabin (easier embark/desembark, etc.), with OnAir inflight connectivity for a lower price than CX.
Let's see if the business is sustainable. In my side of the world (Europe) full business class operations resulted often in failures. The only exception being (maybe) BA LCY-JFK on a 32 seats A319
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Let's see if the business is sustainable. In my side of the world (Europe) full business class operations resulted often in failures. The only exception being (maybe) BA LCY-JFK on a 32 seats A319
I think HKA will swipe a massive amount of business from CX. The kind of people that purchase B and F class like the exclusivity of not having to fly with the cattle. Singapore runs all first class A345s across the Pacific, who knows how much business they have stolen from CX since that started.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. CX is a follower, not a leader. This place makes money despite of the ineptitude of the managers in charge.
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I'm not sure they will steal much traffic from CX. Most business class users are after their gold/silver (or higher) tier status of frequent flyer with both CX and oneworld. Flying HKA doesn't do them any good. Don't under estimate the power of frequent flyer points especially from somewhere like HKG thats full of very businessy types.
Granted, people who aren't tied in to these programmes will be happy to jump ship but is that alone enough to sustain the business?
Granted, people who aren't tied in to these programmes will be happy to jump ship but is that alone enough to sustain the business?
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Well,
I think that one thing is to deploy 2 SA A/C in full business class configuration (32-50 seats) with a heavy schedule (as Privatair and BA - not aware of a similar AF operation), another is to buy 3 (three) A332 configured with 116 seats to do a daily return flight to LGW.
Future will say if this business will be sustainable. Personally I am pessimistic.
However, seen the deep pockets of the HNA group, I am convinced that this operation will stay alive for some time in any case
My 2 cents
I think that one thing is to deploy 2 SA A/C in full business class configuration (32-50 seats) with a heavy schedule (as Privatair and BA - not aware of a similar AF operation), another is to buy 3 (three) A332 configured with 116 seats to do a daily return flight to LGW.
Future will say if this business will be sustainable. Personally I am pessimistic.
However, seen the deep pockets of the HNA group, I am convinced that this operation will stay alive for some time in any case
My 2 cents
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The fact that hka have crew notices begging their pilots not to steal maps and charts from the flight deck explains the calibre of the company and the staff they employ.
might explain the increase in crime rate in yat tung with the influx of hka pilots sharing board there.
might explain the increase in crime rate in yat tung with the influx of hka pilots sharing board there.
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Originally Posted by B-HKD
LOL....plain and simple, your airline SUCKS!
But strange. The last time the media used the verb sucking in the news in conjunction with a certain HK based airline and the cockpit behavior of its crews, it wasn't with HKA
Last edited by Burger Thing; 9th Dec 2011 at 04:29.
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Fascinating if not so laughable.
The once great CX is being challenged by the uncouth neightbour & look at the level of back slapping & self derived omniscience that comes pouring out.
CX WAS (emphasise WAS!!!) an industry leader attracting & screening for some of the best pilots they could find. And they were suitably as well correctly paid. And now???
Let's see.... CX used to attract high time GA guys as well as low to mid time jet guys for SO positions. Now they attract & seek ZERO experienced applicants with ZERO qualifications or credentials. HX initially attracted low(er) experienced pilots but grew & now attracts high time pilots where still the minimum entry requirement is jet time with ATPL. Some argue you'd never be on a HX flight due the pilots' (lack of experience)?? Interesting then that you're happy to put yours & your own on a CX flight with the SFO taking a leak & leaving the iCadet SO with all of ZERO commercial experience & fresh from the flying school the lone protector of the controls!!!????? Worst case at HX is the Capt takes a leak & the jet experienced ATPL pilot is left at the controls.
Have read this entire thread & CX guys are talking of job security & financial remuneration? Come on! So, let's compare CX's history of tearing up legally binding contracts, the "sign or be fired" negotiation tactics, the many different COS packages, the 49ers, ASL & now AHK, failure to honour BPP, the constant legal battles, RP's, the threats of CC just to get a basic pay increase in line with CPI due none given in over a decade (approx).....!!!! And HX: immorally fired a group of 737 drivers all be it from a now non existance management team shown the door.
Salary? CX new hirees all come as iCadets under an insulting pay package which shows an overall pay DECREASE of approx 60% over a career. Or the speculation of more DEFO's who again undermine the seniority system (not remove, just undermine) but will receive the same pathetic (lack of) housing assistance not factored to CPI anyway. And now HX: all pilots just received a 21% pay increase, all pilots come as DEFO's & DEC's whereby the DEC path will slowly erode as numbers required to get the operation going are met.
Time to Command at CX: 18-22 years (the AOA published 22 years recently based on a very detailed analysis...) Time to Command at HX, who knows but at present thoughts are approx 4 years. So, let's call it 8 just to play devil's advocate and still it's a damn site better. Of course it'll never be as good as the good 'ole days of TAA 727 experience then coming to CX on the L1011 and doing 2 years only till Command: as we're all reminded over & over & over again....
CX training? It is well regarded by those within the ranks that CX is considered as a "checking" airline culture with little training as such. In fact the iCadet SO FFS "training" has recently been cut by 50%. HX training? Appears to have a way to go but will they seek to lower initial / early training by as much as 50% or not? Jury is out.....but it appears from some recent incidents they certainly do have a lot to improve on.
Someone mentioned the standard of FA's. Having not flown on them I can't comment but they do have a SkyTrax 4 star rating. But what I will laugh at, as I did from the scanned cut out of the SCM newspaper was the "highly trained??" CX FA's performing an evacution and allowing (assisting) the pax ladened with their 4-5 duty free bags coming down down the slides, clogging up the exits & standing by at the bottom to take photos (bags in other hand I suspect??!!) Go to several other threads on this forum to see the utter ridicule so many CX pilots have for the CX FA "sprint service" techniques!!!!
CX was once a leader. The airline has selected this path in a time of making record profits. Now HX comes along & rattles a few cages & CX arrogance seems surface. No, I'm not with HX but have a few mates who have joined recently. Am content with my present job but looking on with interest....
The once great CX is being challenged by the uncouth neightbour & look at the level of back slapping & self derived omniscience that comes pouring out.
CX WAS (emphasise WAS!!!) an industry leader attracting & screening for some of the best pilots they could find. And they were suitably as well correctly paid. And now???
Let's see.... CX used to attract high time GA guys as well as low to mid time jet guys for SO positions. Now they attract & seek ZERO experienced applicants with ZERO qualifications or credentials. HX initially attracted low(er) experienced pilots but grew & now attracts high time pilots where still the minimum entry requirement is jet time with ATPL. Some argue you'd never be on a HX flight due the pilots' (lack of experience)?? Interesting then that you're happy to put yours & your own on a CX flight with the SFO taking a leak & leaving the iCadet SO with all of ZERO commercial experience & fresh from the flying school the lone protector of the controls!!!????? Worst case at HX is the Capt takes a leak & the jet experienced ATPL pilot is left at the controls.
Have read this entire thread & CX guys are talking of job security & financial remuneration? Come on! So, let's compare CX's history of tearing up legally binding contracts, the "sign or be fired" negotiation tactics, the many different COS packages, the 49ers, ASL & now AHK, failure to honour BPP, the constant legal battles, RP's, the threats of CC just to get a basic pay increase in line with CPI due none given in over a decade (approx).....!!!! And HX: immorally fired a group of 737 drivers all be it from a now non existance management team shown the door.
Salary? CX new hirees all come as iCadets under an insulting pay package which shows an overall pay DECREASE of approx 60% over a career. Or the speculation of more DEFO's who again undermine the seniority system (not remove, just undermine) but will receive the same pathetic (lack of) housing assistance not factored to CPI anyway. And now HX: all pilots just received a 21% pay increase, all pilots come as DEFO's & DEC's whereby the DEC path will slowly erode as numbers required to get the operation going are met.
Time to Command at CX: 18-22 years (the AOA published 22 years recently based on a very detailed analysis...) Time to Command at HX, who knows but at present thoughts are approx 4 years. So, let's call it 8 just to play devil's advocate and still it's a damn site better. Of course it'll never be as good as the good 'ole days of TAA 727 experience then coming to CX on the L1011 and doing 2 years only till Command: as we're all reminded over & over & over again....
CX training? It is well regarded by those within the ranks that CX is considered as a "checking" airline culture with little training as such. In fact the iCadet SO FFS "training" has recently been cut by 50%. HX training? Appears to have a way to go but will they seek to lower initial / early training by as much as 50% or not? Jury is out.....but it appears from some recent incidents they certainly do have a lot to improve on.
Someone mentioned the standard of FA's. Having not flown on them I can't comment but they do have a SkyTrax 4 star rating. But what I will laugh at, as I did from the scanned cut out of the SCM newspaper was the "highly trained??" CX FA's performing an evacution and allowing (assisting) the pax ladened with their 4-5 duty free bags coming down down the slides, clogging up the exits & standing by at the bottom to take photos (bags in other hand I suspect??!!) Go to several other threads on this forum to see the utter ridicule so many CX pilots have for the CX FA "sprint service" techniques!!!!
CX was once a leader. The airline has selected this path in a time of making record profits. Now HX comes along & rattles a few cages & CX arrogance seems surface. No, I'm not with HX but have a few mates who have joined recently. Am content with my present job but looking on with interest....
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Here we go again...
Listen me old China, I think we get the picture. In fact, I think we got the picture ages ago looking at the number of similar posts on the Wannabe forum. You don't like CX and the way the recruiting policy is going (and just about everything else it would appear) - we get it. This crusade that you seem to be on is unlikely to do anything apart from give you ulcers and make you even more bitter than you already seem to be so my advice (which I know you won't take) is to let it go and enjoy your life.
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Two different threads on two different topics Steve.
As I said, fascinating if not so laughable at the defense of the "almighty CX" when a potential challenger enters the market all the while the history & issues compared above can't be denied.
People commented on crew experience levels on a flight, as did I. Same with job security, remuneration, company integrity, FA standards, etc.....
No ulcers mate - far from it! More relief if anything.
As I said, fascinating if not so laughable at the defense of the "almighty CX" when a potential challenger enters the market all the while the history & issues compared above can't be denied.
People commented on crew experience levels on a flight, as did I. Same with job security, remuneration, company integrity, FA standards, etc.....
No ulcers mate - far from it! More relief if anything.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 11th Dec 2011 at 03:14. Reason: For STP...!
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Two different threads on two different topics Steve.
I'm glad that you are relieved that you didn't accept the offer of employment at CX and with that relief should come peace. So, why don't you peace off and leave the rest of us to suffer in silence?
STP
P.S. What does "comparancies" mean?
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"Comparancies"..... Same thought with me but spell check approved it so I let it be. Either way I think you know what is meant. I'll amend it to appease.
Your post seemed to comprise of a willingness of civility up to the "peace off" remark. I mean really! The audacity of anyone to question the greatness of CX??!!!
Yes, research & a balanced debate are essential. I offered another take on the issues & attacks against HX raised in my original post on this thread. You wish to equate my immense dislike of the CEP at CX to a debate of CX standards vs HX.
Yes I do try to gain a thorough appreciation of my (potential) employer both now & in the future. Signing on the dotted line & then b!tching about what you applied for & agreed to is just pathetic. You want to fly for MetroJet then go for it. They're a great outfit with great pilots. Just don't complain about no staff travel or ID90 tickets.
Just go in with open & unbiased eyes & see both sides of a debate. Here HX's pilot standards & experience was questioned, along with the others I mentioned. You don't like my post just because on a completely different thread I vehemently & aggressively oppose something else to do with CX.
Play the ball, not the man so don't try to tackle as in a rugby game if you're now playing tennis as it seems you are seeking to do here. Argue against the points I raised if you wish, leave the silly innuendos out & we could have a decent debate on this topic. Go to another thread if you want to take up another mantle.
Your post seemed to comprise of a willingness of civility up to the "peace off" remark. I mean really! The audacity of anyone to question the greatness of CX??!!!
Yes, research & a balanced debate are essential. I offered another take on the issues & attacks against HX raised in my original post on this thread. You wish to equate my immense dislike of the CEP at CX to a debate of CX standards vs HX.
Yes I do try to gain a thorough appreciation of my (potential) employer both now & in the future. Signing on the dotted line & then b!tching about what you applied for & agreed to is just pathetic. You want to fly for MetroJet then go for it. They're a great outfit with great pilots. Just don't complain about no staff travel or ID90 tickets.
Just go in with open & unbiased eyes & see both sides of a debate. Here HX's pilot standards & experience was questioned, along with the others I mentioned. You don't like my post just because on a completely different thread I vehemently & aggressively oppose something else to do with CX.
Play the ball, not the man so don't try to tackle as in a rugby game if you're now playing tennis as it seems you are seeking to do here. Argue against the points I raised if you wish, leave the silly innuendos out & we could have a decent debate on this topic. Go to another thread if you want to take up another mantle.
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CB, we haven't had a joust before but when I use the "" icon I'm usually joking, as I was in this case - I just couldn't resist the pun. So, apologies, no offence was intended. By the way, "comparisons" would have done nicely but, hey, why use one word when two will suffice? 
Incorrect. You raised the subject and I simply countered your point of view stating that, because you have an "immense dislike of the CEP" programme, you seem unable to overcome your antipathy and make a balanced judgement. As you work for neither CX nor HX, arguably you are not qualified to comment on standards at either airline. Similarly, I'm not qualified to comment on standards at HX, KA, QF, EK or any other airline for that matter. We can both surmise what the standards might be but we can't be absolutely sure. Reading things on forums such as these or listening to disillusioned pilots in the bar is not the same as knowing what the standards might be. (There are obvious exceptions to this argument but we're discussing airlines that you might consider to be a future employer.)
You say that CX is known as a "checking airline" and I say I disagree. Some might think so, and of course they're entitled to their opinion, but I have received some exceptional training over my time here. There is always the exception to the rule but a thinking man would put anecdotal evidence into some form of context - you rarely hear stories of pilots simply passing through the system without encountering difficulties but most do. It's a bit like journalism - feel good headlines don't sell newspapers. Not only that, stories related by those who have difficulties will rarely tell the whole story - that's just human nature.
As far as playing the man rather than the ball, that's something I rarely do, even if the basis for an argument is flawed. However, I find inconsistency in arguments tiresome and feel almost compelled to highlight them and for that I make no apologies. On the other hand, if the person I'm debating a topic with makes a valid point then I'm not afraid of conceding and reviewing my point of view - that's the whole point of debate.
Anyway, enough of that - I've got an intermittent "Thread Drift" ECAM here.
STP
" icon I'm usually joking, as I was in this case - I just couldn't resist the pun. So, apologies, no offence was intended. By the way, "comparisons" would have done nicely but, hey, why use one word when two will suffice?
You wish to equate my immense dislike of the CEP at CX to a debate of CX standards vs HX.
You say that CX is known as a "checking airline" and I say I disagree. Some might think so, and of course they're entitled to their opinion, but I have received some exceptional training over my time here. There is always the exception to the rule but a thinking man would put anecdotal evidence into some form of context - you rarely hear stories of pilots simply passing through the system without encountering difficulties but most do. It's a bit like journalism - feel good headlines don't sell newspapers. Not only that, stories related by those who have difficulties will rarely tell the whole story - that's just human nature.
As far as playing the man rather than the ball, that's something I rarely do, even if the basis for an argument is flawed. However, I find inconsistency in arguments tiresome and feel almost compelled to highlight them and for that I make no apologies. On the other hand, if the person I'm debating a topic with makes a valid point then I'm not afraid of conceding and reviewing my point of view - that's the whole point of debate.
Anyway, enough of that - I've got an intermittent "Thread Drift" ECAM here.
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No worries.... My ECL doing the same!
But I still stand on my comparisons in order to offer a different perspective on the issues raised earlier.
Always up for an informed debate & like you am also happy to be corrected. Overall we probably agree on things more than not. Although my point on this thread was to offer some realistic opposition regarding the (unfair in light of CX's issues & history) criticisms raised.
Cheers.
But I still stand on my comparisons in order to offer a different perspective on the issues raised earlier.
Always up for an informed debate & like you am also happy to be corrected. Overall we probably agree on things more than not. Although my point on this thread was to offer some realistic opposition regarding the (unfair in light of CX's issues & history) criticisms raised.
Cheers.
