Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

SLS Mk II

Old 25th Sep 2011, 00:53
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: HK
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Thumbs down SLS Mk II

As the world global financial crisis, nay, catastrophe envelops all industries over next few years and really intensifies, bet your left one CX will have their hand out for another round of SLS.

Any takers??

Maybe the Captains can do it- minus 10%

larrikan larry is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 02:57
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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I suspect we (the AOA) have a lot of rectifying the contract to do before I would even consider another round of SLS. To start with:

- freighter positioning
- proper finalization of 25 year housing
- real consultation on new FTLs
- new and improved RPs based on PBS
- new basing policy to open more positions

Anyone care to add to the wish list...
cxorcist is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 03:27
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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First it was Direct Entry Captains are coming, now it's a new thread saying SLS is coming? Exactly what are you trying to incite?

At least you've named yourself well Larry.
Blogsey is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 03:37
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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No. And I doubt anyone else will until
KA & CX lay off all the icadets first
AAIGUY is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 04:44
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Join Date: Dec 1998
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hahahaha. I haven't kept up with inflation for SIXTEEN YEARS....and just received the first miserable payrise in nearly a decade. There is NO chance I will ever again agree to SLS. There is much catching up to do before I start going backwards again.
Tornado Ali is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 06:53
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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First things first... There is 3000+ hrs of overtime in the published October roster. No sls just yet!
kahuna is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 11:03
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Surely you mean SLS Mk 3 - I guess you may be fairly new here!

I'd sign up again in a heartbeat. Both Mk 1 and 2 resulted in me loaning the company a few weeks pay in exchange for a few weeks extra leave. Admittedly if I'd been a captain for Mk 2 it would have cost me a small amount of money for the extra leave but if they were selling extra leave at that rate now then there'd be a long queue I reckon.
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2011, 12:49
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You assume SLS MK 3 will be the same, the Capt shafting was a test to see where MK 3 could go, so sign if you want but don't bitch and moan when it's not like MK 1/2.
SMOC is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2011, 04:49
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Loopdeloop is right! Loan the company a few weeks and get it back PLUS the few weeks are extra paid leave! Where are the mathmeticians here? I think it's a great deal!
Oval3Holer is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2011, 06:26
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Why not get a few concessions from the company for that ever elusive AOA recommendation like during the SLS Mk2?

Agree with above post that all icadets would have to be made redundant first. Would like to add that when they come back, they (or their replacements) are on full expat terms.

Separate note - hear there are some managers trying to run a coup against the DFO over this whole icadet mess...
cxorcist is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2011, 09:33
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Join Date: Feb 1999
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Et tu, brute!
Bob Hawke is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2011, 14:37
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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I would LOVE to have some more SLS, or a part time scheme. That would be the cat's meow, I do say indeed!!!

Box
boxjockey is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2011, 07:00
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Separate note - hear there are some managers trying to run a coup against the DFO over this whole icadet mess...
Legally, the Company can no longer hire anybody on expat terms without having the RDO trigger full expat terms for all our 300+ local pilots.

Can we still manage to recruit experienced and suitable pilots to Hong Kong on anything less than full expat conditions? Probably not. Can we recruit unlimited quantities of suitable iCadets? Of course.

Flight Ops is therefore instructed to only recruit on local conditions. Period.
quadspeed is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2011, 07:22
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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sorry, but that is not correct, however some people want us to believe exactly that ...

Ask any of your non-pilot expat friends what is going on in their companies, banks etc. They are hiring on expat terms - completely legal - without triggering expat terms for any of the locally hired employees in similar positions.
freightdog188 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2011, 07:53
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Join Date: May 2009
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If the company agrees to something like 25 years housing in exchange then I would probably take sls.

Anyone know why this is still not yet in writing? Mine still says

At the end of the mortgage term, or a cumulative total of fifteen (15) years as an Owner-Occupier, whichever is sooner, an Officer will receive assistance equal to the applicable Base Rate prevailing at the time.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2011, 03:06
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Join Date: May 2006
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Of course they can pay housing...

...just ask any expat BC who has been hired recently... They all get a shared flat for two years and then they get an allowance enough for a place in TC.

Anyone believes that the company "has" to hire pilots on local terms should think again...
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2011, 12:24
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sorry, but that is not correct, however some people want us to believe exactly that ...
Anyone believes that the company "has" to hire pilots on local terms should think again...
If the company had received legal advise to the effect they could hire expats without triggering and end to local contracts, they most certainly would. Believe me. We'd have proper DESO contracts again, as well as DEJFOs. We might even see DEFOs on the bases again, who after serving their time could return to HK in expat conditions, something they can not legaly offer without invalidating local contracts.

Upper management is convinced that they can't legally get aorund this, and Finance is therfore instructing Flight Ops to not hire anybody on expat terms. This puts a lot of pressure on company-loyal flight-ops managers who don't agree with this decision from an operational perspective. In fact, most will tell you over a beer that the Cadet program only works when mixed with experienced crews. The HKPA is a (failed) attempt at recruting experienced pilots without triggering a RDO claim, and is a compromise of sorts between Finance and Flight Ops.

So I say again, you've got it wrong. The company would prefer that they could hire expats without triiggering a landslide at the same time.

Have a look at HSBC. They already dealt with this issue by putting everybody on the same benefits scale to avoid this mess.
quadspeed is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2011, 12:27
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..just ask any expat BC who has been hired recently... They all get a shared flat for two years and then they get an allowance enough for a place in TC.
They're bringing with them language and culture skills which can't be obtained locally. For that, you are allowed to discriminate.

For pilots.?
quadspeed is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2011, 13:45
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quadspeed

What planet are you living on? CX are laughing all the way to the bank not having to pay expat terms to new pilots. The reality is they are using the RDO as an excuse not to pay expat terms. I don’t know how many times I have to say this but the RDO doesn’t even apply as cadets were never employed based on race. Prior to the iCadet scheme cadets were employed because they had the right to live in Hong Kong, not because of their race. Even though most cadets were Hong Kong Chinese, many weren’t. This on its own is all the evidence that is required cadets weren’t employed based on their race but on their right of abode in Hong Kong and therefore demonstrating the RDO doesn’t apply. They were discriminated based on their employment stream, not their race and the RDO doesn’t cover discrimination based on employment stream.

Even if the RDO did apply which I believe it doesn’t, section 13 “Exception for employment of person with special skills, knowledge or experience”, still allows employers in Hong Kong to pay expat terms and conditions to new employees if they bring special skills, knowledge or experience to Hong Kong that aren’t readily available in Hong Kong. Pilots with any depth of experience, i.e. DESO/FO’s definitely aren’t readily available here. Based on this any new pilots that would have qualified for the DESO/FO employment stream would still be allowed expat terms under the RDO section 13.

I find it more than a coincidence that the moment 90 or so cadets a few years ago joined the AOA on mass and pushed the AOA GC to fight for expat terms and conditions based on the RDO, the company withdrew all expat terms and conditions for all new hire pilots. The reality was they were barking up the wrong tree because even if the RDO was applicable, section 14 “Exception for existing employment on local and overseas terms of employment”, allowed the company to continue to discriminate against any employee employed before 10th July 2009.

RACE DISCRIMINATION ORDINANCE
404 Titan is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2011, 15:18
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Pilots with any depth of experience, i.e. DESO/FO’s definitely aren’t readily available here. Based on this any new pilots that would have qualified for the DESO/FO employment stream would still be allowed expat terms under the RDO section 13.
Once any cadet has been checked to line as an FO, SFO, Captain or STC he most certainly fits the "with any depth of experience" description. Doing the same job, with the same qualifications and skill set but receiving a lower wage because he or she happened to be born a Hong Kong Resident is discrimination. In fact, the RDO specifically mentions discrimination based on "national origin" as falling within the scope of the RDO. (8.1.a)

CX is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hire on expat terms and pay the penalty, or hire cheaply on local terms and hope it stays afloat. CX is not hiding behind the RDO. If they wanted to end all expat terms and conditions, they could have done so at any point in the past 30 years. But they knew they couldn't get the crew they wanted, and continued to offer 'the package.'


CX are laughing all the way to the bank not having to pay expat terms to new pilots.
'Not having to pay expat terms to new pilots' has a direct impact on the calibre of recruitment. I can assure you many in Flight Ops are not "laughing all the way to the bank", but are genuinly concerned where this will take us 10 years down the road. Which I believe was the reference which started this discussion.
quadspeed is offline  

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