China Ops
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China Ops
Can anyone help me out here. When flying in China, and given a climb/descend to FL clearance with no time requirement ( ie when ready climb/descend to.... or climb/descend now to FL etc) when are you expected to leave current FL by? I thought ICAO law was within 2 mins but was corrected to 1 min. Off course China doesn't run by ICAO standards 
so was hoping someone might have any references that states the actual reqs?
fj01
so was hoping someone might have any references that states the actual reqs?fj01
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They make fake baby formula .... execute innocent people ... harvest organs ... eat endangered species because it gives them "courage" ....
Hit FLCH and get outa there ASAP man!
Hit FLCH and get outa there ASAP man!
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I would do that anywhere. Unless ATC specifically says "pilot's discretion", or "when ready", I would do it now. At least a 100 fpm until you capture your path. If they want greater then you can give it to them.
And if you really want to hang on to your altitude, then ask if you can descend at your discretion (if they even understand what you are asking)
I know that ICAO says blah blah blah... Use common sense, you are in an unforgiving environment were ICAO means jack sqwat.
And if you really want to hang on to your altitude, then ask if you can descend at your discretion (if they even understand what you are asking)
I know that ICAO says blah blah blah... Use common sense, you are in an unforgiving environment were ICAO means jack sqwat.
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just my little bit
I'm sure I'm preaching to those already in the know, but as an ex ATC I can add that the instruction to "when ready descend to......" leaves the descent up to the pilot with no time limitation or restrictions. However, "Descend to......" requires descent to commence no later than 1 minute.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
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My understanding is that ICAO says 2 mins. But Chinese ATC get awfully jumpy if you don't start down straight away. Generally they seem happy with anything over 1,000 fpm, but frequently they demand 2-2,500.
Look ahead in your flight plan and there's a few hints as to where they want you to have achieved that level by.
- FIR boundaries.
- Frequency changes.
- SID / STAR requirements. Many of the Chinese STARs say "At or above FL167" (for example). The ATCOs don't understand this level of flexibility. They only understand "AT FL167"
Get VNAV to level you off at that point and generally it works out nicely.
Look ahead in your flight plan and there's a few hints as to where they want you to have achieved that level by.
- FIR boundaries.
- Frequency changes.
- SID / STAR requirements. Many of the Chinese STARs say "At or above FL167" (for example). The ATCOs don't understand this level of flexibility. They only understand "AT FL167"
Get VNAV to level you off at that point and generally it works out nicely.
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China wants you down right away and never issues a pilot discretion clearance. Descend at 1000' fpm and if they want more they will tell you. The reason they usually want at least 2000' fpm is to get you out of their airspace and into the next lower approach control airspace in other words they are passing the buck to get rid of you ASAP. I also generally climb at 250 knots until 6000 meters FL 197 so yo can get into the higher controller airspace and then you seem to get more favorable clearances.
system run by 
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China Ops
Thanks to all for the replies and comments. Definately aware of the fact that their airspace is not aligned (and prob never be) with ICAO standards so prob best just to commence immediate or tell them to maintain for 'XX' mins/miles.
Th situation was that in a line check the other day, I was held down for a China carrier (ops normal), dodging weather, coming up to a bit of cell tail overhang. Just as I passed underneath it, they cleared me to climb. I told the FO that I will maintain current level for 2 mins more then climb into blue skies. My understanding is within 2 mins to leave level. Well, within 30 secs, Control was onto me telling me to climb and off course, I was pinged in the debrief.
Sometimes you learn things the hard way.
Thanks again to all for the feedback
FJ 01
Th situation was that in a line check the other day, I was held down for a China carrier (ops normal), dodging weather, coming up to a bit of cell tail overhang. Just as I passed underneath it, they cleared me to climb. I told the FO that I will maintain current level for 2 mins more then climb into blue skies. My understanding is within 2 mins to leave level. Well, within 30 secs, Control was onto me telling me to climb and off course, I was pinged in the debrief.
Sometimes you learn things the hard way.
Thanks again to all for the feedback
FJ 01
Last edited by floatjockey01; 29th Jul 2011 at 23:18.
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Whatsit, there is generally no blanket speed limit below 10,000 in china, having said that you would be lucky to get much more than 210-230IAS descending into a chinese airport, 9 times out of 10 
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250 below 10,000
Wrong, CCAR Part 91.117 (which is identical to US FAR) requires 460 km/h (250 KTS) below 3,000 m (10,000 feet).
If it is not on the Jepp doesn't mean ICAO rules are not applicable. Under the Jepp ATC section it will specify what rules the state has deviated from ICAO. 250 10K certainly is not there.
If it is not on the Jepp doesn't mean ICAO rules are not applicable. Under the Jepp ATC section it will specify what rules the state has deviated from ICAO. 250 10K certainly is not there.
boocs
yep, I love it.
"reach 3000m by xyz"
us "unable"
"ok, do your best"
I always do. Dont you also?
Also, if you dont want to descend just say unable due wx, they will leave you alone for 100 miles sometimes, depending on where you are.
yep, I love it.
"reach 3000m by xyz"
us "unable"
"ok, do your best"
I always do. Dont you also?
Also, if you dont want to descend just say unable due wx, they will leave you alone for 100 miles sometimes, depending on where you are.