CX Hiring First Officers? When?
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So in other words CX is also not the way forward? I really begin to think I chose the wrong profession because according to all the threats here on PPRUNE, all the carriers are bullocks. I'm 3000 hours TT, 2500 airbus, please tell me, what is the way forward? With this loco ping-pong business I'm in now, I go crazy..
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Triple_2, although long-haul may seem calm and even glamourous compared with your ping-pong job, I really miss the true flying and decision-making involved in ping-ponging. I know of a captain at EasyJet Switzerland who makes more in basic salary than a 747 captain at Cathay. Plus, he's got a fun cabin crew and actually uses his head and his skills rather than becoming a brain-dead ocean-crosser. Enjoy where you are. Take a trans-Pacific flight and hang out in the cockpit for 7 hours. Then, see what you think. If you want to really fly, keep doing what you're doing. If you want to get paid to sit and do nothing (nothing wrong with that if you're really tired of flying) then look at a long-haul job.
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CX no longer hire DEFOs.
The only way in is through cadet entry SOs.
1. >1500 hrs (4-12 week course).
2. <1500 hrs (30 week course).
3. < 250 hrs (60 week course).
CX can hire DEFOs but with CX going for 3 crew long haul and looking at cruise pilot MPLs and the hassle with bases, bypass pay etc, hiring of DEFOs in the future is doubtful plus if they do it'll be local terms like the new SOs.
CX is not what it used to be.
WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise co-pilot MPL
The only way in is through cadet entry SOs.
1. >1500 hrs (4-12 week course).
2. <1500 hrs (30 week course).
3. < 250 hrs (60 week course).
CX can hire DEFOs but with CX going for 3 crew long haul and looking at cruise pilot MPLs and the hassle with bases, bypass pay etc, hiring of DEFOs in the future is doubtful plus if they do it'll be local terms like the new SOs.
CX is not what it used to be.
WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise co-pilot MPL
Last edited by SMOC; 8th Jun 2011 at 00:10.
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Thanks guys for the advice. That's the hard truth of everything in aviation I believe, it's all going downhill. Having said that, I think carriers like CX are still the best deals around. I understand what you say about flying the airplane but then PA28, gliding and instructing is the way for me For me flying is also about bringing cultures together and traveling, that would be longhaul. I've been in longhaul before so know what it's like, it can be boring at times for sure. At the moment I have 34 years of flying ahead of me, better with a big carrier I would say and fly the small stuff on the days off..
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You sound like an air defender which means you didn't ever lead a 64 ship OCA mission, I can tell you who did!
By the way, the Jag was great!
By the way, the Jag was great!
Bombers in an air war are like small children. They need a fighter to hold their hand when crossing the road.
Ahh for the good old days.
lmh
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For me flying is also about bringing cultures together
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So no going out with the cabin during layovers as well i can imagine? If you wouldn't mind, could you maybe tell what kind of lifestyle you can expect at CX for a guy like me starting as a SO? I can imagine more guys reading this forum are interested to know. Thanks!
The cabin crew are often referred to as 'olympic torches'; they travel the world and never go out.
Except to Chinatown maybe.
Very few are 'westernised', nice girls but watch the eyes glaze over when you make a joke or sometimes just attempt conversation. Standards of English not good particularly among the Cantonese and mainland crew. Low salary means they prefer to stay in their rooms and hoard the outport allowances.
Some twenty years ago two of our cockpit crew were sitting in an 'airline' restaurant in Mainz, Germany. A Delta captain came over to them.
'Hey, I bet you guys are Cathay'.
'Yes how did you pick that?'
'You got no women with you and you're bitchin' about your management'.
It hasn't changed.
Except to Chinatown maybe.
Very few are 'westernised', nice girls but watch the eyes glaze over when you make a joke or sometimes just attempt conversation. Standards of English not good particularly among the Cantonese and mainland crew. Low salary means they prefer to stay in their rooms and hoard the outport allowances.
Some twenty years ago two of our cockpit crew were sitting in an 'airline' restaurant in Mainz, Germany. A Delta captain came over to them.
'Hey, I bet you guys are Cathay'.
'Yes how did you pick that?'
'You got no women with you and you're bitchin' about your management'.
It hasn't changed.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 8th Jun 2011 at 18:59.
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Good god man...
Triple 2... Are you freaking kidding me? How could you even consider coming to CX as a CADET with 3000 hours, (2500 on Airbus)?!?! YOU are what is wrong with our industry and why conditions continue to fall to the lowest bidder. Pathetic...
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Thanks for the info Capt Dart, much appreciated!
Haha Flaps 10, I didn't want to upset you! You are right, the SO conditions are slightly worse then I initially imagined. I thought if I would go to the selections, they would maybe offer me something better considering my experience but probably the chances are quite slim to non existing.. Never harms to look around and talk to people though, I just want to find a good and challenging airline where I can work for the rest of my career. I thought CX is one of the leading airlines in the world and it would be an honor to work for them.. Would say that airlines will have a problem finding proper pilots in the near future but that's a whole different discussion. If the industry goes on like this, I'm seriously considering a change of profession
Haha Flaps 10, I didn't want to upset you! You are right, the SO conditions are slightly worse then I initially imagined. I thought if I would go to the selections, they would maybe offer me something better considering my experience but probably the chances are quite slim to non existing.. Never harms to look around and talk to people though, I just want to find a good and challenging airline where I can work for the rest of my career. I thought CX is one of the leading airlines in the world and it would be an honor to work for them.. Would say that airlines will have a problem finding proper pilots in the near future but that's a whole different discussion. If the industry goes on like this, I'm seriously considering a change of profession
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Triple 2, et al:
Please do NOT underestimate 3 things:
1) The very high expense of living in Hong Kong, especially with no housing allowance when you are used to western standards. You will almost certainly be going backwards in lifestyle with light at the end of a very, very long tunnel. I like to compare it to attending medical school without the end-game reward$.
2) The frustration of being an SO who does not fly, have much responsibility, or receive any respect from a large percentage of the pilots. You will be assumed to have little or no relevant experience as a cadet SO, even though this is not the case in your situation. You will be lumped in with pilots far less experienced, and I believe you will come to resent this.
3) Your upgrade to JFO (AKA "untrusted" FO) is at least 4 years off from hire and possibly much more as MPP and perhaps 3 man long haul become the norm. This is to say nothing of the possibility for DEFOs further slowing your career progression. They have in the past and will again if necessary. Your flying skills will certainly degrade during this time as you are only allowed to fly the sim. It will be very challenging to keep your head in the game after the newness of everything wears off.
Don't let this be your career as a cadet at CX --->
1) The very high expense of living in Hong Kong, especially with no housing allowance when you are used to western standards. You will almost certainly be going backwards in lifestyle with light at the end of a very, very long tunnel. I like to compare it to attending medical school without the end-game reward$.
2) The frustration of being an SO who does not fly, have much responsibility, or receive any respect from a large percentage of the pilots. You will be assumed to have little or no relevant experience as a cadet SO, even though this is not the case in your situation. You will be lumped in with pilots far less experienced, and I believe you will come to resent this.
3) Your upgrade to JFO (AKA "untrusted" FO) is at least 4 years off from hire and possibly much more as MPP and perhaps 3 man long haul become the norm. This is to say nothing of the possibility for DEFOs further slowing your career progression. They have in the past and will again if necessary. Your flying skills will certainly degrade during this time as you are only allowed to fly the sim. It will be very challenging to keep your head in the game after the newness of everything wears off.
Don't let this be your career as a cadet at CX --->
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I made the mistake of taking a First Officer position with Oasis Hong Kong Airlines based on a promise of a quick command as I was already a -400 Captain with Dragonair. We all know what happened to Oasis. It took me less than 2 months to work out that I would stagnate and go backwards in my career if I didn't get back into the left seat quickly. Thank goodness they went bankrupt as quickly as they did. I got lucky and was back into the left seat of the A330 after 8 months of being employed. Lesson: never go backwards in your aviation career, always move forward and up. With your background of the A320 it would be a catastrophic career move to accept a Second Officer position with CX.
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Heard the other day from a guy in training that SOs in about a year will be doing RT/PC with an STC in the left seat, they will also have to do a sim session once a month. This is instead of the current Mod system where you do a sim once every two months, two of those each year being a regulatory check.
You may wonder why they are doing this or you may already know. The Mod system is for the P2X rating, this new sim every month and an RT/PC system is for the soon to be introduced P1X rating. Don't get excited, no base training and still no hours useful anywhere else, all so there can be two SOs on ULH flights.
So in the middle of this safety audit, and the ever quoted line of "safety is our top priority", they are inventing the way to introduce a system that will result in almost all of our ULH flights having a guy in the right seat for landing who can hardly keep his eyes open due to always getting the worst rest.
Oh will also mean ages to upgrade for an SO as am sure with this new rating they will not make the mistake again of it only being valid for 5 years. Will make the job of being an FO more crappy also
edit to add: This will also free up many many hours on the rosters of FOs so will further reduce the hiring needs for experienced guys.
You may wonder why they are doing this or you may already know. The Mod system is for the P2X rating, this new sim every month and an RT/PC system is for the soon to be introduced P1X rating. Don't get excited, no base training and still no hours useful anywhere else, all so there can be two SOs on ULH flights.
So in the middle of this safety audit, and the ever quoted line of "safety is our top priority", they are inventing the way to introduce a system that will result in almost all of our ULH flights having a guy in the right seat for landing who can hardly keep his eyes open due to always getting the worst rest.
Oh will also mean ages to upgrade for an SO as am sure with this new rating they will not make the mistake again of it only being valid for 5 years. Will make the job of being an FO more crappy also
edit to add: This will also free up many many hours on the rosters of FOs so will further reduce the hiring needs for experienced guys.
Last edited by SloppyJoe; 11th Jun 2011 at 06:11.
SloppyJoe
I don’t want to poo poo you rumour but a quick numbers check on the back of my beer coaster tells me the numbers don’t add up.
Let’s assume we have about 250 SO’s. This means the training department would have to find an extra 750 sim slots a year. The sims are already operating at or close to max capacity as it is so I find it difficult to see how they could find an extra 750 slots with the current capacity constraints. We are also desperately short of training captains so finding the extra STC’s to conduct the RT/PC’s is hugely problematic given the current training task already planned.
I’m not saying the rumour isn’t true. I just think it is difficult to make the numbers add up. Also CX can roster 2 x SO's now if they want. They don't need a P1X rating to achieve it. The real reason they want a P1X rating is because projected upgrade times will go well past five years (the life of a P2X rating) if 2 x SO's are used on ULH flights.
I don’t want to poo poo you rumour but a quick numbers check on the back of my beer coaster tells me the numbers don’t add up.
Let’s assume we have about 250 SO’s. This means the training department would have to find an extra 750 sim slots a year. The sims are already operating at or close to max capacity as it is so I find it difficult to see how they could find an extra 750 slots with the current capacity constraints. We are also desperately short of training captains so finding the extra STC’s to conduct the RT/PC’s is hugely problematic given the current training task already planned.
I’m not saying the rumour isn’t true. I just think it is difficult to make the numbers add up. Also CX can roster 2 x SO's now if they want. They don't need a P1X rating to achieve it. The real reason they want a P1X rating is because projected upgrade times will go well past five years (the life of a P2X rating) if 2 x SO's are used on ULH flights.
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The five year limit on the P2X rating is not an issue. Waivers have already been given by the CAD for those who left and then re-joined. The document uses the words ".....should normally etc....within 5 years".
Sir KDM Lowe
One off waivers from the 5 year validity to a P2X rating doesn’t imply that the CAD will just give them out when all SO’s are going beyond 5 years to upgrade to JFO. If the “Normally” becomes greater than 5 years the CAD will want a fix. From what I understand of the proposed P1X rating it will be open ended.
One off waivers from the 5 year validity to a P2X rating doesn’t imply that the CAD will just give them out when all SO’s are going beyond 5 years to upgrade to JFO. If the “Normally” becomes greater than 5 years the CAD will want a fix. From what I understand of the proposed P1X rating it will be open ended.