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Cathay and Cadet "Bonding"

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Cathay and Cadet "Bonding"

Old 9th Mar 2011, 01:56
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Cathay and Cadet "Bonding"

Cathay is now instituting a de facto "bonding" of cadet entry pilots.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 02:34
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Bonding yes, but with CX's money.

More like "Golden Handcuffs".
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 02:35
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They will be trying it on for good reason too. With the recent Hainan Group aircraft order, it is likley some of those aircraft will go to Hong Kong airlines.

Considering some of the CX cadets have already gone to Hong Kong Airlines, I won't be suprised if more shift across in the future for higher pay, more job satisfaction and much faster career progression.

HKD$33000 and no housing. It's not hard to do better than that.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 02:57
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Under HKG law one can not bond an employee. I have heard that 9 cadets have quit in the last 2 months. After profit share I expect more to jump (good on them!).

So as a work around company propose a 'forgivable loan' of approx HKD1mill. Each cadet 'spends' some of this loan for training. No experience - spend it all, Advanced Entry training they spend HKD500,00 or so, and Transition Training spend HKD200,00 approx. Cadet gets to hold on to the balance. After 6 years service the forgivable loan will have been 'repaid'.

So, yet again, CX management are trying to get around HKG law. I hope this is challenged.

If you want to retain staff, reward them. Don't use mafia tactics.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 03:54
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What if you take the 1 million and just book-off. Cathay is not a banking institution, so what can they do about it?

Seriously, why don't they just pay people appropriately. Maybe the AOA should use the discrimination order to sue Cathay for not providing this loan to everybody. We need to do something about this.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 05:47
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I stand corrected.
HKD$33,000 + Housing between 10-36K per month + Joining Bribe.

36K Housing for a senior captain. Where do I sign.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 05:49
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See the latest crew notice....local guys starting s/o and upwards are getting housing in the form of an allowance. Hot on the heels of a rumored local captain just resigning
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 05:53
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joining bonus???

If you join with proper aviation exprerience (such as Caribou time with Capt Toss as your squadron leader) you could call this significant amount a "joining bonus" - NOT

Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 9th Mar 2011 at 06:04.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 09:26
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So let me get this straight...

For example...

- You are Aussie GA guy with reasonable hours/experience (say a couple of thousand and an ATPL/CPL - basically what they were taking as SO's a couple of years ago)

- The only job CX are offering you right now is SO under the new 'Advanced Cadet Entry'

- They send you to Adelaide for the one month 'Advance Cadet Course' and technically LOAN you the money ($550,000) for the training.

- If you decide HK or CX sucks and decide to leave for greener pastures before your 6 year bond is up they expect you to pay the $550,000 training loan back?

Thats AWESOME! Where do I sign up? So at $33,000/mth, that $550,000 = 16 months salary - so if you decide to leave CX before 16 months is up you will effectively be paying CX for the privilege of working for them and leave with less money than what you came with 16 months earlier!

Is this true?

You had better be sure you and your family love Cathay/Hong Kong/being an SO before you come - because if this is true you are trapped here for minimum 6 years!

This is by far the most devious tactic yet by Cathay. Yet in the Notice that management published, they've made it look good with all kinds of window dressing around it such as the whopping $10,000 housing allowance (which gets you something approximates a small public toilet in HK).

If this is true then this is appalling... the word needs to get out on this to make sure the young fellas aren't deceived like CX is always trying to do to everyone else.

(You will note that I haven't talked about the $550,000 you get to keep, because we are talking about bonding here... so if you leave inside 6yrs you will actually be paying $1.1mil even though you only put $550,000 in your pocket! ie. you still end up $550,000 worse off!)
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 10:45
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Cathay has always bonded cadets, this is not new. The 1500+ hr pilot is eligible for CTT program not the AE program and the course is only 8 weeks not 32. At then end of the first year the pilot can draw down 880000 as loan, that need not be paid back if you stay for a minimum of 6 years.

Lets compare this to JQ, that you have to pay app 150000AUD for the training and then work your backside off to pay it back, effectively flying for peanuts.

CX is still the best gig in town...IMHO
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 19:47
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Conditions get better and you buggers still whinge, unbelievable. If you don't want to be bonded for 6 years don't come. It's hardly unfair with the cash Cathay invests in cadets to want to keep them for at least a few years so Emirates doesn't come try poach guys whom Cathay has paid good money to get up to scratch. Yes, it's different to the way it used to work (housing and A-Scale) but my god, you sound like children. It ain't affecting your conditions so run along and complain about how the money for the new aircraft ordered should have been used in your profit share.
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Old 9th Mar 2011, 19:49
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'CX has always bonded cadets'

Not true.

CX have tried to make the cadets think they are bonded, by getting them to sign an agreement of return of service. BUT, this contract is NOT valid as the cadet does not get access to legal advice and an employee can NOT be bonded under HKG Law.

With cadets leaving for better employers (any other airline) after they finish training, the company is trying to trap them with this mafia embrace. A good company would improve conditions to retain staff.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 03:37
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Aztec wake up
Conditions get better and you buggers still whinge, unbelievable.
B scale to C scale doesn't constitute better conditions.

The only reasons conditions got better with the international cadet program was because there wasn't enough takers for the $h!t conditions. Almost all DESO in the hold file rejected Cathays offer. If no body takes this offer then maybe they'll go back to original housing.

It ain't affecting your conditions
You really believe that don't you. What a very short sighted attitude you have of CX management.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 04:33
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aztec2008

You aren’t even here yet and you’re trying to tell us it won’t affect those already here. I suggest you do a little research sunshine before you open your mouth and post here in future as you're embarrassing yourself. CX has a well documented history of introducing new COS and using it to lower existing pilots COS. There are a lot of past and present “A” scalers who would argue that “B” scale had a huge detriment to their own COS. History is clearly on their side and you’re clearly mouthing off on a subject you have no knowledge about.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 06:24
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It ain't affecting your conditions
By Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.


Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.


Feel free to swap "Socialists", "Trade Unionists", "Jews" for "New joiners", "A-scalers", "B-scalers", "CEP"....etc

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Old 10th Mar 2011, 06:42
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What I see is B scalers whingeing about C scalers when they did the exact same thing in taking reduced conditions when they joined, double standards are alive and well. Until it does start looking to affect you then what's the point in getting involved, people will take what they signed on for as the conditions at joining were pretty obvious. If this equals enough newbies for Cathay then good on them. Just be happy with what you have and worry about something maybe a little more important.
Of course I will step back entirely if someone can prove to me that a cadet taking the current offer is reducing conditions for current guys, but to this point no one has been able to explain that. Anyone with a conscience would think it's not at all fair if they were reducing someone elses pay for their own benefit.
Flyhardmo, I'm not talking about b-c, that's pretty obviously a step down the ladder, I'm talking about guys who signed up for c to start with.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 07:19
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Aztec,

No, I think what you are seeing is B scalers whinging about a lower pay scale for all new pilots, despite that fact that it has no effect on them either way, something the A scalers are often criticised for 'allowing' to happen when they were around. (Whether this is in fact what happened when B scale was introduced is an old debate.)

You should actually be saying that it is GOOD current pilots are thinking about the T&Cs of new joiners even though it doesn't affect them.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 07:56
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aztec2008

You truly are an idiot. Your level of thought is purely on the 1st level of industrial relations. You have the total inability to think something through to its final conclusion which is usually at the 3rd to 5th level. The reality is that it is only because of us, existing CX pilots, warning the likes of you that the iCad deal was grossly substandard and would leave the successful cadet in severe financial stress that the company has had to sweeten the deal. They haven’t done this through the goodness of their heart. They have done it because they have been grossly underwhelmed with suitable applicants. Most sensible people could see this though. The fact is the new deal still is grossly inadequate because:

1. The housing is still grossly substandard and is 100% taxable.
2. The housing isn’t indexed to the Hong Kong Government Rental Index, therefore isn’t indexed for inflation.
3. Once you have completed 6 year of service the “forgivable Loan” will be 100% taxable as it will then be deemed income by the IRD. It won’t matter if you were a long track cadet and used the entire loan for your training. It will be deem income and taxed at the highest rate.

Shall I go on? If you want to be taken seriously sunshine, you had better start thinking past the end of your nose.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 09:23
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I thank you for your feedback 404, I truly am an idiot. But yeah thanks geh, that actually explained it fairly well, from my perspective it was all a little backwards but I was looking at it the wrong way. It just seems like that I guess with the personal attacks that go on against the guys in the wannabe forum.
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Old 10th Mar 2011, 09:40
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Aztec,
Your correct about one thing, it's an improvement. But woefully inadequate! Your sign on bonus is about equal to one years worth of income under the former housing scheme payments(entitement 25 years). With a six year forgivable term if you take the bonus. If your beside yourself to serverely short change your housing allowance while working at CX, take the offer. But fortunately many of your compatriates have realized its a raw deal and given it the respect it deserves.
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