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Momentum is building for industrial action

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Momentum is building for industrial action

Old 1st Nov 2010, 14:38
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 677
Most of the LEPs are only really interested in one issue as priority and that is LEP housing. The AOA is interested in membership numbers, and to get the 300+ LEPs to join, they needed to persue the LEP's top priority (or at least try) which was the housing. Whether it was winnable or not, the AOA had to try or face losing 300+ of their members en-masse which would cause even more damage.
geh065 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2010, 15:30
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Somewhere out there..
Posts: 72
Bart, I completely agree that the 25-year housing deal was "in the bag" and for the company to try to wiggle out of it or barter for something in return is simply poor form. The union should get that signed and sealed before any talks can possibly be conducted in good faith.

On the other hand, people have got to realize that LEPs (or more correctly CEPs) WILL be the majority of recruits in CX. For those who still don't know, guys with thousands of hours are joining on a super-short "cadet" course (aka Finesse Course) so yes, the next time you see some SO who has 5000 hours flying Dash-8s around Oz, he's here with no housing coz he's a "cadet". It won't be long before CEPs are the majority in the union. (I can't imagine CEPs not getting any housing by then but I don't want to even imagine what a CEP-majority AOA exco will do to benefit themselves if that is truly the case) Fighting for and protecting housing for the CEPs is the only way we could protect the downfall of the B-scale in the way A-scale has gone down the drain.
iMad is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2010, 03:22
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 234
Quite right iMad.

The 25 years is here already. When I was coming up to 15 years I went in to the offcie and they agreed there and then that I could continue to 25 years.

The AOA fighting for CEPs is the right thing to do. We're all pilots and should be treated the same. Why can't some of you understand that any group of pilots with less benefits than others only give management a target for the rest of us to go down to.

I think you will find that most of the 300 or so CEP's are in fact AOA members.
AnAmusedReader is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2010, 05:33
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 18
I've long since given up on AOA, the company always seem to have an upper hand...why is this the case?
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 07:48
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 35

I like your thinking, 25 year housing is definately a win-win for all and certainly relevant for all pilots, and certainly for you. Just a little bit of pork-barrelling but I think as we include a housing allowance for LEP's we should add one for based pilots. Why not, everyone has housing costs, right? I am certain the based pilots would put their rosters at risk by going the CC route to improve your housing.

You obviously weren't here for the last stouch when bad rosters became unbearable when the company invented O days, NB, SB and rostered a trip the day before and the day after any leave.
Interested_Party is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2010, 10:06
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 18
It's hard to have faith in the AOA when they are duped by the company time and again. Unless they are willing to show some real spine...
Get-a-raise is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2010, 14:35
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 233
Lets get going to before the tide turns again!

October 28, 2010
Airlines Post Big Earnings, Workers Seek Their Share By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor

Since the mid-2000s airline workers have given up more than $12 billion in contract concessions, according to The New York Times, and now, as a reaction to very strong third-quarter earnings reports, those workers are looking for payback. Sara Nelson, a spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants, told the Times, "Executives reaped millions in bonuses paid for with the sacrifices of frontline workers." Now, says Nelson, the "excuses are all dried up" and "payment to workers is long overdue." Speaking for the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Robert Roach Jr. said, "It is time carriers recognize it was the employees who saved many airlines" and that management "must recognize that contribution -- not by words, but by deeds." With contract negotiations on the horizon for many carriers, analysts have their eyes on one that could set the stage.

Some analysts expect contract negotiations that will follow the United and Continental mega-merger to set precedent for negotiations at the other airlines. The nation's top carriers showed third-quarter earnings of more than $2.5 billion and charted a trajectory toward profitability for the first time since 2007. The negative figures include estimates of $60 billion in industry-wide losses over the past decade and estimates that the industry's workforce fell from more than 575,000 in 2001 to about 380,000 today.
crewsunite is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2010, 23:28
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 137
WE are the AOA.
The association is not some foreign entity. It is what we make it.
When people "give up" on the AOA/resign etc.....it only makes us weaker.
It amazes me that these people are the ones who complain about how ineffective we are.
It's not rocket science people.
If you want an effective association; get involved.
We are somewhat limited by labour laws in HK but giving up and quitting doesn't help anyone. Especially yourselves.
4 driver is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2010, 01:45
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 0
Fear not, 4 driver, who would bother posting anti-AOA posts here apart from management stooges, sciolists*, trolls and the odd non-member with a guilty conscience.

I've been in the company a long time and there is a very encouraging groundswell out there unlike what I have seen in the past. The reported resignations, if true, will also get the company's attention.
Captain Dart is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2010, 08:29
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 18
Well I'm just pointing to the truth. Some people don't like the truth. I see things as it is rather then put my head in the sand and pretend everything is fine and dandy. Frankly, the AOA hasn't been inspiring to say the least. Bartholomewrose and crewsunite is right, I am disappointed as a member. You can only get 100% committed membership if you have competent leadership to lead.

If you don't criticize and point to it's shortcomings, then it's not going to improve is it? If you want 100% committed membership, then let's see some real action.
Get-a-raise is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2010, 08:40
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877

It seems we get to vote on "some real action" this week heh..

Keep in mind that just because we are not hearing anything does not mean nothing is happening.

cxorcist is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2010, 02:30
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,114
So let's see...I cannot do a swap because our roster is too tight. There is nothing worthwhile requesting as all my flight are 12 hour duties through the night. I'm already only getting 10 G per month so 9 will make no difference. I have no chance of getting on a flight on my few days off because the loads are so high and because I'm so fatigued from my wonderful roster. Now to add salt to injury the HKD is going to sh1t and I cannot afford to go anywhere!

What can you take away from me that you already have Richard?
I'm voting for CC now!
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2010, 13:56
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HK
Posts: 56
one for me toooo!!
pasa001 is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2010, 02:43
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 762
For those planning to vote YES on option 1, make sure that you vote YES on option 2 as well.
broadband circuit is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2010, 04:17
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 290
Think carefully about voting yes to both, because motion 2 can only succeed if motion 1 fails e.g. we can't have it both ways!
Ex Douglas Driver is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2010, 04:37
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6

Get-a-raise: "It's hard to have faith in the AOA when they are duped by the company time and again. Unless they are willing to show some real spine..."

For the AOA to show some real spine, they need the membership to support them and show it. If you are not happy with what is going on, stand for GC membership yourself next year and sort out all the problems from there. I, for one, am grateful for the time and effort the guys put in on our behalf for little thanks but plenty of complaints.

Ironically, the loudest complainers are the non-members; to them, I say, "Join your union NOW and help show solidarity against the shameful way that Management continually behaves. Right now, your non-membership means that you are sitting on the same side of the table next to Management against your fellow pilots every time Cx meets with the Union representatives. Stop being selfish and help all your colleagues and yourselves instead of Management."

Rant over.
gjanf is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2010, 09:54
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 172
Some info.

been thru the labor tribunal here in HK.....and was speaking to a solictor (who has been dealing with labor disputes in HK for now 16 years) that gave us guidance on matters pertaining to it. She was laughing about CX history with me but she made a very pointed statement at one point.

"with the labor tribunal now in place in HK you will never see a 49'er saga ever again."

Throw into the mix that cx has already lost its case(on appeal yes but basically a lost cause coming from the mouth of one of swire's close to the legal action).

So those dreading another star chamber.....don't quake in your boots it ain't happening.

As for work to rule.....all you dumbies should have been doing it for years....I still find gutless wonders who answer their crew direct or answer their phone.
But hey for the first time in over 3 years I am actually starting to get called on my days off to help crew control. Nice work by our new DFO mentioning he will go back to punitive rostering....again....moronic. Punitive rostering worked in the past cause it was more effective to work us into over time...aka we were cheaper per hour after we hit overtime. I say bring the punitive crap on....see how good flight ops budget will be after we eat up all that reserve, and we all go past 95 hours per month....

Why doesn't everyone realise that the requirement for sick note from doctor has gone from 1 day to 3 days out to 5 or more days off before you need one? Wasn't us....it was their insurance premiums going up. They demanded a sick note due industrial action when we all went sick.....but it couldn't be sustained....and as soon as we have come off the pedal these last 7 or so years they could reduce their premiums again by not demanding our doctor attendance. They bring it on again and it just hurts them in a round about way.
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Old 8th Nov 2010, 17:44
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 237
Why doesn't everyone realise that the requirement for sick note from doctor has gone from 1 day to 3 days out to 5 or more days off before you need one?
It's actually only required for more than 7 days!

I'm with you with punitive rostering. They are already short of crew and we all know that avoiding overtime is a priority for them. What are they going to do? Put us on reserve with minimum days off, but not call anyone to avoid overtime? Really?
bobrun is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2010, 05:51
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MARS
Posts: 158
..or in my case icon because of a chinese voice saying something to the effect of: "Not available now,please call again later" meaning TRY AGAIN the minute my reserve starts.

The rest of my O and G-days are mine to enjoy with the wife and kids,and the name "Cathay Pacific" a vague memory in the back of my mind.
AD POSSE AD ESSE is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2010, 15:20
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nomadic
Posts: 240
Watching Dick Ball using his limited intellect to paint himself into a corner is almost worth the stalling tactics he is using.....it simply extends our viewing pleasure! Like watching a train wreck in slow motion!
The Wraith is offline  

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