2 Man Ultra Long Range
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The variation is for the 12 hour time zones west/east of their home base in one duty cycle, on specific flights between Chicago and Amsterdam.
It makes no mention of 3 man / 2 man or ULR.
It makes no mention of 3 man / 2 man or ULR.
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You are absolutely correct. Not sure why there are people on here who do not understand the rules but what can you do?
Of course you don't need 3 crew. The FTL states quite clearly that you must a) require more than 2 crew and b) cross more than 6 time zones to be classed as an ULH flight. It is not a) OR b) but a) AND b) to be considered ULH.
The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!
As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?
Of course you don't need 3 crew. The FTL states quite clearly that you must a) require more than 2 crew and b) cross more than 6 time zones to be classed as an ULH flight. It is not a) OR b) but a) AND b) to be considered ULH.
The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!
As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?
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Thank you for the re-post that really cleared it up now! So circadian rythm doesn't seem to be a factor with 2 crew as they can flight west or east bound, up to their max fdp, cross an unlimited number of time zones so long as each scheduled sector time is less than nine hours. Yes i can see that you have a good grasp of the aftl.
About that pie
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Wait a minute Adam you are incorrectly assuming that you are correct. The only evidence you have provided to support your argument is the fact that the company is rostering ORD/AMS 2 crew and therefore you must be correct. Yes we all know that CX would never ever break any laws, even if it meant saving a few $$....(I am being cynical of course).
I have yet to see anyone counter argue the point I made about being able to fly HKG/ANC or even FRA/HKG two crew, if your interpretation is correct. What about the Commander Discretion form? Are you going to ignore that as well??? There are many loopholes in your interpretation which you haven't even addressed.
Again as pointed out previously, you don't use a sub section (para 15.4) of one section (section 15), to determine if a flight conforms to another section (section 16). It's just not designed that way....not sure why you guys are having a hard time understanding this. If your interpretation is correct, then why even define 3 crew ULR ops?????. There would be no meaning to it.
Since you seem to think that you know the AFTLs, please entertain me and explain to me the difference between a 3 crew ULR ops and a 3 crew normal ops? Obviously time zone change seems to be a petty matter in your argument, so explain to me the difference between the two ops.
I have yet to see anyone counter argue the point I made about being able to fly HKG/ANC or even FRA/HKG two crew, if your interpretation is correct. What about the Commander Discretion form? Are you going to ignore that as well??? There are many loopholes in your interpretation which you haven't even addressed.
Again as pointed out previously, you don't use a sub section (para 15.4) of one section (section 15), to determine if a flight conforms to another section (section 16). It's just not designed that way....not sure why you guys are having a hard time understanding this. If your interpretation is correct, then why even define 3 crew ULR ops?????. There would be no meaning to it.
Since you seem to think that you know the AFTLs, please entertain me and explain to me the difference between a 3 crew ULR ops and a 3 crew normal ops? Obviously time zone change seems to be a petty matter in your argument, so explain to me the difference between the two ops.
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I have yet to see anyone counter argue the point I made about being able to fly HKG/ANC or even FRA/HKG two crew
HKG-FRA:
Sign-on is at about 2340 local, therefore max FDP (2 crew) is 11 hours. The FDP required for that flight is about 13.2 hours, so 3 crew ULR FDP (13 hours) is insufficient: you need four crew.
The rest in FRA is over 30 hours, so the available FDP for the return flight is 13 hours, with a required FDP of 11:55, hence the provision in our FTLs that allows us to return to HKG with 3 crew.
If it were an acclimitised crew (say, based) that started in FRA, then they have about 13 or 14 hours FDP available, more than enough for the 11:55 required FDP (10:55 sector time), so they could do the flight under the leg stretch rules with 3 crew. For the return flight to FRA, they would have had over 40 hours rest, so that gives them an available FDP of 13 hours, again, not enough for the 13.2 hour FDP required, (nor is it enough to complete the flight using 3 crew ULR FDP of 13 hours) so four crew needed again.
That's my take on it - happy to be proved wrong.
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Guys, I'm still trying to learn my AFTL section and I'm now confused!
They are couple of questions I'd like to ask:
First, I believe they cannot roster 3 men crew coming back from FRA-HKG on a passenger fleet because of a paragraph in the rostering practice section. Is that right?
Secondly, someone mentioned HKG-RJCC then RJCC - ANC with two crew. It sounds scary. I really don't want to see that new pattern. But are they allow to extend ULH FDP with a split duty? (section 17) I think it's legal to do this pattern if the crew have a rest period in RJCC. Is that right?
The definition section does define ULH as 3 or more crew required with 6 time zones difference. It's very hard to ignore that.
They are couple of questions I'd like to ask:
First, I believe they cannot roster 3 men crew coming back from FRA-HKG on a passenger fleet because of a paragraph in the rostering practice section. Is that right?
Secondly, someone mentioned HKG-RJCC then RJCC - ANC with two crew. It sounds scary. I really don't want to see that new pattern. But are they allow to extend ULH FDP with a split duty? (section 17) I think it's legal to do this pattern if the crew have a rest period in RJCC. Is that right?
The definition section does define ULH as 3 or more crew required with 6 time zones difference. It's very hard to ignore that.
Ambiguity and regulation
This thread seems to indicate that there is indeed ambiguity (no doubt intentional) in the text/interpretation of the current AFTLS/RP.
It is the role of the CAD/CX CSD/AOA(HKAUSCAN) to ensure that when these documents and agreements are constructed that there is no "manoeuvre margin" in the text and its real world application to the safe and efficient crewing/operation of aircraft.
Of course many will say "your dreaming", but hopefully the new AFTLS/RP will address some of these issues?
It is the role of the CAD/CX CSD/AOA(HKAUSCAN) to ensure that when these documents and agreements are constructed that there is no "manoeuvre margin" in the text and its real world application to the safe and efficient crewing/operation of aircraft.
Of course many will say "your dreaming", but hopefully the new AFTLS/RP will address some of these issues?
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Jed,
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to say FRA/PEK/HKG. I am simply trying to show that their interpretation is flawed, because it would allow 2 crew to fly as far West or East as possible without any time zone limitation. They keep reminding me that according to the definition of ULR, it has to meet condition A (requiring three or more pilots) AND condition B (involving a time difference of 6 hours or more) to be deemed as a ULR flight. Not A or B. Fine! I am not arguing the English language here! My point is that ULR wasn't defined a decade ago with the intent to make an odd ball ORD/AMS sector legal. It was defined this way purely to differentiate between 3 crew Normal Ops to that of 3 crew ULR Ops period. I still say 6 time zone changes alone has always defined ULR ops.
If you believe in the flawed interpretation then you must also accept that so long as the crew compliment is kept to the minimum of 2, then the "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more" is not a factor, in which case it would be quite legal to roster 2 crew to fly FRA/PEK/HKG or HKG/CTS/ANC, this is but only two examples. I've forgotten what the scheduled sector length for our old Istanbul flight was, but if it was under nine hours it could have been crewed by only 2 pilots, but it never was!
Do the maths for FRA/HKG via PEK for 2 acclimatised flight crew or HKG/ANC via CTS. You will find that it is quite doable, albeit marginally, and this is what makes it a farce if you believe in the flawed interpretation.
If you start interacting section 15 and section 16 together to determine if a flight is ULR or not, then you are not using the AFTL the way it was constructed.
By current AFTL definition, and correct interpretation of its intent, the ORD/AMS is being crewed illegally, unles they have received some sort of dispensation that we are not aware of.
Rookie,
Do not worry there will be no chance of doing 2 crew HKG/CTS/ANC based on the current AFTL, because the correct interpretation does not allow it.
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to say FRA/PEK/HKG. I am simply trying to show that their interpretation is flawed, because it would allow 2 crew to fly as far West or East as possible without any time zone limitation. They keep reminding me that according to the definition of ULR, it has to meet condition A (requiring three or more pilots) AND condition B (involving a time difference of 6 hours or more) to be deemed as a ULR flight. Not A or B. Fine! I am not arguing the English language here! My point is that ULR wasn't defined a decade ago with the intent to make an odd ball ORD/AMS sector legal. It was defined this way purely to differentiate between 3 crew Normal Ops to that of 3 crew ULR Ops period. I still say 6 time zone changes alone has always defined ULR ops.
If you believe in the flawed interpretation then you must also accept that so long as the crew compliment is kept to the minimum of 2, then the "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more" is not a factor, in which case it would be quite legal to roster 2 crew to fly FRA/PEK/HKG or HKG/CTS/ANC, this is but only two examples. I've forgotten what the scheduled sector length for our old Istanbul flight was, but if it was under nine hours it could have been crewed by only 2 pilots, but it never was!
Do the maths for FRA/HKG via PEK for 2 acclimatised flight crew or HKG/ANC via CTS. You will find that it is quite doable, albeit marginally, and this is what makes it a farce if you believe in the flawed interpretation.
If you start interacting section 15 and section 16 together to determine if a flight is ULR or not, then you are not using the AFTL the way it was constructed.
By current AFTL definition, and correct interpretation of its intent, the ORD/AMS is being crewed illegally, unles they have received some sort of dispensation that we are not aware of.
Rookie,
Do not worry there will be no chance of doing 2 crew HKG/CTS/ANC based on the current AFTL, because the correct interpretation does not allow it.
Last edited by Flap10; 21st Jul 2010 at 04:55.
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Ok, one thing at a time.
Two sector day, departing FRA; Unacclimatised FDP available is 12:15.
Sector time to PEK about 8 hours (I'm guessing). Add one hour for sign-on, add one hour for the turn around and three hours for the flight to HKG gives a total of 13 hours.
How is this do-able with 2 crew?
It's not, but it is just do-able with acclimatised crew (sign-on between 0800 and 1259), which is why so many Euro carriers do it.
It is legal, but a HKG crew could never be acclimatised, and a based crew would never be acclimatised in HKG.
Try working out LON-JNB...
Do the maths for FRA/HKG via PEK for 2 acclimatised flight crew
Sector time to PEK about 8 hours (I'm guessing). Add one hour for sign-on, add one hour for the turn around and three hours for the flight to HKG gives a total of 13 hours.
How is this do-able with 2 crew?
It's not, but it is just do-able with acclimatised crew (sign-on between 0800 and 1259), which is why so many Euro carriers do it.
It is legal, but a HKG crew could never be acclimatised, and a based crew would never be acclimatised in HKG.
Try working out LON-JNB...
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How is this do-able with 2 crew?
It is legal, but a HKG crew could never be acclimatised, and a based crew would never be acclimatised in HKG.
I am using a plausible scenario of two crew calling in sick last minute leaving two based crews to operate flight. If it is legal which option do you think CX will opt for, a) cancel flight with obvious damaging consequences and expenses, or b) depart flight with 2 crew and a stopover in PEK. If you have ever operated 2 crew DXB/BOM/HKG on the airbus I won't need to remind you which option CX will choose. If you recall there have been many instances where CX have had to cancel a flight due last minute sickness. They didn't have any other choices.
Last edited by Flap10; 21st Jul 2010 at 07:00.
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F10,
Only the ULR Ops paragraph considers time-zones. Normal Ops does not mention time-zones - they are not considered - so you can't say that you can't cross 6 time zones 2-man (remember my 89.9 North example - where do you draw the line (of latitude) on that ?).
You only have to consider time-zones if you need 3 or more crew.
Now go and see Mrs Miggins for an exceptionally large pie
Only the ULR Ops paragraph considers time-zones. Normal Ops does not mention time-zones - they are not considered - so you can't say that you can't cross 6 time zones 2-man (remember my 89.9 North example - where do you draw the line (of latitude) on that ?).
You only have to consider time-zones if you need 3 or more crew.
Now go and see Mrs Miggins for an exceptionally large pie
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How about this, then:
Can you conduct the flight under para 15? If you can then great. If you cannot, then you need 3 crew for 13 hours, or 4 crew for 18.
That's in any direction. (For all you know, we may be asked to operate LON-JNB one day - which AFTLs will you use then?)
How many time zones you are away when you finish your duty determines which rest applies - see Table R.
"ULR" is just a name, it doesn't change anything.
And that's it, really.
Can you conduct the flight under para 15? If you can then great. If you cannot, then you need 3 crew for 13 hours, or 4 crew for 18.
That's in any direction. (For all you know, we may be asked to operate LON-JNB one day - which AFTLs will you use then?)
How many time zones you are away when you finish your duty determines which rest applies - see Table R.
"ULR" is just a name, it doesn't change anything.
And that's it, really.
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Only the ULR Ops paragraph considers time-zones. Normal Ops does not mention time-zones - they are not considered - so you can't say that you can't cross 6 time zones 2-man
(remember my 89.9 North example - where do you draw the line (of latitude) on that ?).
I've said as much as I can say about this subject. If you believe that we were always legal to fly two crew beyond six time zones, then the entire AFTL is flawed as nothing correlates and makes logical sense. Even the Commander Discretion (a legal document) is flawed then.
Well it is your licence on the line. Should the day come and you have to defend your actions for flying two crew half way around the world, you better have a better defence then what you have already presented.
Good Luck, I've already ordered a pie with your name on it from Mrs Miggins!
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Can you conduct the flight under para 15? If you can then great. If you cannot, then you need 3 crew for 13 hours, or 4 crew for 18.
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A message from the northern hemisphere.
Just a thought. All European and North-American airlines fly Chicago - Amsterdam, and numerous other city pairs, like this. All time zone differences of 6 or more hours, with flighttimes less than 8 hours. ALL are done with two pilots, no exceptions. It is not called LH let alone ULH.
The timezone differences will give you more time off in relation to north - south flights, as your circadian rythm will be disturbed.
So, in my humble view, I cannot understand anyone claiming a 7 hour flight a ULR. I think it is a misunderstanding of your AFTL's and that the wording of it need some improvement.
Just a thought. All European and North-American airlines fly Chicago - Amsterdam, and numerous other city pairs, like this. All time zone differences of 6 or more hours, with flighttimes less than 8 hours. ALL are done with two pilots, no exceptions. It is not called LH let alone ULH.
The timezone differences will give you more time off in relation to north - south flights, as your circadian rythm will be disturbed.
So, in my humble view, I cannot understand anyone claiming a 7 hour flight a ULR. I think it is a misunderstanding of your AFTL's and that the wording of it need some improvement.
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Bogie 30...well said!...does anyone actually just enjoy the job of being an "Airline Pilot" any more?....see a bit of the world, drink a few beers, chat with a few mates, fly a good jet, come home and enjoy a few days off in the sun with the family!....for f%$ks sake just make the most of what we've got