2 Man Ultra Long Range
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2 Man Ultra Long Range
I am confused... perhaps someone can explain.
Ultra Long Range Operation
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
Chicago to Amsterdam is a 7 hour time difference. However, its being run as a 2 man crew.
I thought the special exemption was for the 12 hour time zone difference. Did CX get 2 man ULR as well?
Chicago to Amsterdam is a 7 hour time difference. However, its being run as a 2 man crew.
I thought the special exemption was for the 12 hour time zone difference. Did CX get 2 man ULR as well?
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You're absolutely right, Dan Buster. The 8/9 hour flight-time regulation you refer to define when you need a 3rd guy on the FD.
The only thing Waterskiers quoted paragraph states is that Chicago - Amsterdam isn't, by definition, ULH. So what?
The only thing Waterskiers quoted paragraph states is that Chicago - Amsterdam isn't, by definition, ULH. So what?
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Not quite, treboryelk...
A third man (or a third and fourth) is "required" for FDP extension, whereas a third man is "needed" for leg stretch.
The leg stretch is flown within 2-man FDPs.
A third man (or a third and fourth) is "required" for FDP extension, whereas a third man is "needed" for leg stretch.
The leg stretch is flown within 2-man FDPs.
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Is it a Normal Operation?
NO
So, because of the 7 Hr time zone difference between Chicago & Amsterdam, it is by definition, an ULR operation, which REQUIRES 3 operating crew and Section 16 "Ultra Long Range Operations" applies (and therefore Section 15 "Normal Operations" FDP limits do not).
Normal Operation
Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.
Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.
Ultra Long Range Operation
An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.
An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.
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I think you mean 15.4 to determine whether an extra pilot needs to be boarded?
and yes, I'm wrong!! I now agree that this can be flown 2 crew, but if an extra crew member was required to be boarded, the ULR provisions would subsequently apply.
and yes, I'm wrong!! I now agree that this can be flown 2 crew, but if an extra crew member was required to be boarded, the ULR provisions would subsequently apply.
Last edited by Ex Douglas Driver; 18th Jul 2010 at 06:44.
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Ultra Long Range Operation
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
Some of the rubbish posts here show how unprofessional/gullible some "Cathay freighter pilots" really are. Check your payslip. Management love it.
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Peter and crwjerk,
ORD-AMS is only 7 hrs flying time = 8 hours FDP
Look at para 15 "Normal Ops" and both Table A and Table B allow Normal FDPS of 8 hours (shortest is 11 hours)
So it's Normal Ops
Now look at 15.4: 3rd crew member is only required for scheduled FDP of 9 hours, or 8 hours if through 0200-0600 Local of departure Airport.
You only need 2-man crew.
Just because it's > 6 time-zones, it isn't ULH.
If you flew an East-West flight at 89.9 degrees North, you could cross 6 time zones in about 8 or 9 miles; would that be ULH? No.
Peter, management love pilots who don't know FTLs......that'll be you, then.
ORD-AMS is only 7 hrs flying time = 8 hours FDP
Look at para 15 "Normal Ops" and both Table A and Table B allow Normal FDPS of 8 hours (shortest is 11 hours)
So it's Normal Ops
Now look at 15.4: 3rd crew member is only required for scheduled FDP of 9 hours, or 8 hours if through 0200-0600 Local of departure Airport.
You only need 2-man crew.
Just because it's > 6 time-zones, it isn't ULH.
If you flew an East-West flight at 89.9 degrees North, you could cross 6 time zones in about 8 or 9 miles; would that be ULH? No.
Peter, management love pilots who don't know FTLs......that'll be you, then.
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Peter the time difference of six hours or more is only relevant when the flight requires three or more pilots. There is no 'or' in that sentence you have pasted. Read it properly, Adam is right.
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haha...good one Adam but you just failed your upgrade interview! Peter is right!
Normal operation is defined as: any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation
Peter has already defined Ultra long Range operation exactly as it is shown in the AFTL.
If the time change is six hours or more that technically and legally defines it as an Ultra Long Range operation, and you don't even use the table under Normal Operation. In fact nothing under section 15 would aplply...not even para 15.4.
You're going about it completely backwards by first determining whether the FDP falls within normal ops, and when it does, incorrectly assuming that it must be normal ops. WRONG! You have to first determine whether it is normal ops, OR ulltra long range ops, BEFORE you apply the appropriate section. IE section 15 or section 16. In this case because it is 6 time zones or more YOU HAVE to apply section 16.
Yes you could cross six time zones in a few miles at 89.9deg North, but the 35deg temp and 99% humidity tells me Hong Kong is not at 89.9 deg North. The AFTL were originally written with Hong Kong in mind, and any destination that is 6 times zones away from Hong Kong is a f%$^*ng long way. The outdated AFTLs may not correctly applty to ORD-AMS, but by the current AFTL definition IT IS an Ultra Long Range Operation.
So the answer to the riddle is 3! The minimum crew compliment is 3 with max allowable FDP of 13hours. Some of you have seem to go off on a tangent with "requiring three or more pilots". Did they have to spell out to you that you can't do a ULH flight with two pilots?
ULH = six time zones or more
3 pilots = 13 hours FDP
4 pilots = 18 hours FDP
Time to eat your humble pie
unless someone proves me wrong in which case my pie is ready.
Normal operation is defined as: any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation
Peter has already defined Ultra long Range operation exactly as it is shown in the AFTL.
If the time change is six hours or more that technically and legally defines it as an Ultra Long Range operation, and you don't even use the table under Normal Operation. In fact nothing under section 15 would aplply...not even para 15.4.
You're going about it completely backwards by first determining whether the FDP falls within normal ops, and when it does, incorrectly assuming that it must be normal ops. WRONG! You have to first determine whether it is normal ops, OR ulltra long range ops, BEFORE you apply the appropriate section. IE section 15 or section 16. In this case because it is 6 time zones or more YOU HAVE to apply section 16.
Yes you could cross six time zones in a few miles at 89.9deg North, but the 35deg temp and 99% humidity tells me Hong Kong is not at 89.9 deg North. The AFTL were originally written with Hong Kong in mind, and any destination that is 6 times zones away from Hong Kong is a f%$^*ng long way. The outdated AFTLs may not correctly applty to ORD-AMS, but by the current AFTL definition IT IS an Ultra Long Range Operation.
So the answer to the riddle is 3! The minimum crew compliment is 3 with max allowable FDP of 13hours. Some of you have seem to go off on a tangent with "requiring three or more pilots". Did they have to spell out to you that you can't do a ULH flight with two pilots?
ULH = six time zones or more
3 pilots = 13 hours FDP
4 pilots = 18 hours FDP
Time to eat your humble pie
unless someone proves me wrong in which case my pie is ready.
Last edited by Flap10; 18th Jul 2010 at 16:18.
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Hey F10,
I hope it's an exceedingly large pie
As Peter says:
"Ultra Long Range Operation
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
It does not say:
""An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes requires three or more pilots"
Why would ORD-AMS need 3 or more pilots with an FDP of only 8 hours? The time-change is only half of the equation. The determinant of whether or not you need 3-man crew is FDP only.
Obviously my statement about 89.9 North was a quip, but the fact that the "time-zones first" argument does not stand up to my example must sow the seeds of doubt in your mind, no?
Here's another big clue: it's rostered with 2 crew; do you really think they would roster it that incorrectly?
p.s. Done all upgrades already
I hope it's an exceedingly large pie
As Peter says:
"Ultra Long Range Operation
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
It does not say:
""An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes requires three or more pilots"
Why would ORD-AMS need 3 or more pilots with an FDP of only 8 hours? The time-change is only half of the equation. The determinant of whether or not you need 3-man crew is FDP only.
Obviously my statement about 89.9 North was a quip, but the fact that the "time-zones first" argument does not stand up to my example must sow the seeds of doubt in your mind, no?
Here's another big clue: it's rostered with 2 crew; do you really think they would roster it that incorrectly?
p.s. Done all upgrades already
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Of course you don't need 3 crew. The FTL states quite clearly that you must a) require more than 2 crew and b) cross more than 6 time zones to be classed as an ULH flight. It is not a) OR b) but a) AND b) to be considered ULH.
The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!
As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?
The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!
As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?
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Wow, quite the response....
I interpretted it as requiring 3 or more pilots because 6 or more hours time difference, but now many say requiring 3 or more pilots AND 6 or more hours time difference.
I see I'm not alone in my interpretation as a few others read it similarly. I thought 6 hours time difference was the line between Normal and ULR and that ULR requires 3 or more pilots.
Interesting to note that normal ops (section 15) makes no mention of physiological rest whereas Ultra Long Range Ops (section 16) does.
I interpretted it as requiring 3 or more pilots because 6 or more hours time difference, but now many say requiring 3 or more pilots AND 6 or more hours time difference.
I see I'm not alone in my interpretation as a few others read it similarly. I thought 6 hours time difference was the line between Normal and ULR and that ULR requires 3 or more pilots.
Interesting to note that normal ops (section 15) makes no mention of physiological rest whereas Ultra Long Range Ops (section 16) does.
Last edited by Waterskier; 19th Jul 2010 at 07:43.
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The answer lies in the HKG-AKL flights...
Only a four (or five) hour difference, so by our FTLs, it can never be an ULR operation, because our FTLs were written to cover our primarily East-West flying.
Surely a 12 hour sector heading 180 degrees is just as tiring as heading 090 degrees? How easily you recover from that sector (for the return flight) is another issue entirely, which is why there is Table X and Table R.
Only a four (or five) hour difference, so by our FTLs, it can never be an ULR operation, because our FTLs were written to cover our primarily East-West flying.
Surely a 12 hour sector heading 180 degrees is just as tiring as heading 090 degrees? How easily you recover from that sector (for the return flight) is another issue entirely, which is why there is Table X and Table R.
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Adam If the company is interpreting the AFTLs the same way as you are it was never the intent. You have to remember that the AFTL was drafted a long time ago, before they could foresee themselves doing a flight that has a relatively short flying time, and one that crosses more than 6 time zones.
The addition of "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more..." was there solely to differentiate certain normal ops 3 crew flight to that of 3 crew ultra long range ops, such as SYD, BAH, AKL..etc and nothing else. It was never meant to be interpreted in such a way to allow a flight with 2 crew AND 6 time zones. The line between normal ops and ULR ops was drawn at 6 time zones.
The FDP and number of crew does not dictate the definition of ULR ops rather it is the time zone changes. Hence the very reason for having Table R. Table R wasn't designed for you to do a normal ops flight and then apply physiologiocal rest.
Please spare me the "they must be doing it so it must be legal..we all know that CX interprets any agreement to suit their needs"
Just to add to the debate then, by your interpretation it would seem quite acceptable on those occasions, where lets say they are short of crew to ANC, for the flight to depart HKG two crew, make a quick stop in Sapporo, and then continue to ANC. Each sector is less than 9 hours so requiring only 2 crew and hence the time zones changes become irrelevant and the flight automatically deemed as now normal ops. So early morning departure normal ops, 2 crew, 2 sectors max FDP 13+15 shouldn't be a problem to ANC according to your interpretation. A direct flight makes it a ULR ops and a stopover in Sapporo makes it a normal ops flight, do you think the AFTL were written with that intent????
Since when has the company in the past applied this practice????? NEVER, because they can't! The intent of "time difference of 6 hours or more between the places where the duty period began and ended" was to protect the above scenario.
I am sorry but not quite ready to eat my humble pie yet!
The addition of "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more..." was there solely to differentiate certain normal ops 3 crew flight to that of 3 crew ultra long range ops, such as SYD, BAH, AKL..etc and nothing else. It was never meant to be interpreted in such a way to allow a flight with 2 crew AND 6 time zones. The line between normal ops and ULR ops was drawn at 6 time zones.
The FDP and number of crew does not dictate the definition of ULR ops rather it is the time zone changes. Hence the very reason for having Table R. Table R wasn't designed for you to do a normal ops flight and then apply physiologiocal rest.
Please spare me the "they must be doing it so it must be legal..we all know that CX interprets any agreement to suit their needs"
Just to add to the debate then, by your interpretation it would seem quite acceptable on those occasions, where lets say they are short of crew to ANC, for the flight to depart HKG two crew, make a quick stop in Sapporo, and then continue to ANC. Each sector is less than 9 hours so requiring only 2 crew and hence the time zones changes become irrelevant and the flight automatically deemed as now normal ops. So early morning departure normal ops, 2 crew, 2 sectors max FDP 13+15 shouldn't be a problem to ANC according to your interpretation. A direct flight makes it a ULR ops and a stopover in Sapporo makes it a normal ops flight, do you think the AFTL were written with that intent????
Since when has the company in the past applied this practice????? NEVER, because they can't! The intent of "time difference of 6 hours or more between the places where the duty period began and ended" was to protect the above scenario.
I am sorry but not quite ready to eat my humble pie yet!
Last edited by Flap10; 19th Jul 2010 at 03:35.
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CDR form
At the risk of exposing myself as an
I must agree with Peter613 (much as I dislike agreeing with a gentleman who treats his colleagues with such disdain).
The ULH definition can certainly be interpreted both ways, while 15.4 only applies to Normal Ops to begin with (so to my mind should not be used to define whether a flight is ULH or not).
But the big clue for me is in the Commander's Discretion Report form: if you grab one, you will notice that it clearly specifies "Time Zone Change of Six Hours or More" as the (sole) distinguishing factor between Normal Ops and ULH.
The fact that they have been rostering ORD-AMS as two-man so far just means that CX haven't noticed yet either, or that they're "trying it on"... either one of these options doesn't really stretch credulity IMHO.
MD (also ready for a serving of humble pie if required!)
unprofessional/gullible ... "Cathay freighter pilot"
The ULH definition can certainly be interpreted both ways, while 15.4 only applies to Normal Ops to begin with (so to my mind should not be used to define whether a flight is ULH or not).
But the big clue for me is in the Commander's Discretion Report form: if you grab one, you will notice that it clearly specifies "Time Zone Change of Six Hours or More" as the (sole) distinguishing factor between Normal Ops and ULH.
The fact that they have been rostering ORD-AMS as two-man so far just means that CX haven't noticed yet either, or that they're "trying it on"... either one of these options doesn't really stretch credulity IMHO
.MD (also ready for a serving of humble pie if required!)
