Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks

[turnandburn]

Correct me if I am wrong but there are both still expats and locals on A scale so why is not anyone just demanding that?Surely you should ask for the most you can get as the whole time I have been here we only seem to get less. If you are going to play the discrimination card play the whole hand all in. Not only that go for the original A scale not the 30% off one that exists now.

Old A scale
25 years housing for everyone
medical
education
travel fund
Inflation Adjusted annually
All NORMALLY words removed from all agreements
All bypass pay honored
PX/PT sorted

Same team same dream ......no just faaaarcking dreaming

[CXChildLabour]

Could someone gimme a figure in terms of how many A-scale expats signed over to COS08 and virtually signing onto B scale? or as a matter of fact, how many actually didn't, that should be a small number to work with.

[iceman50]

ENVY

The housing allowance I receive and pay tax on, does NOT go into my pocket but that of a "Local" Landlord!

My children do not speak cantonese and would NOT have been accepted at a local school, EVEN though I pay HK taxes. The education allowance that I receive and pay tax on does NOT go into my pocket but the coffers of the ESF.

I am not on A scale, do not receive a travel fund and my FOC was "supposed" to allow me to return to my HOME country, not go on "Holiday".

We would all like more money, but you cannot change your contract just because of envy. CEP / LEP get exactly the same pay scale as their peers, be they A, B or C scale so there is NO discrimination.

Unfortunately I think the AOA and the GC if they have approved this line of action have lost the plot!

[TimsBits]

When you joined you knew what your mouthly salary, the amount of housing allowance, your retirement age, your p-fund contribution and that you should NEVER EVER want any increase or improvement in any areas of your condition - yet you still joined CX = so you do not have a leg to stand on next time you ask the AOA to negotiate with the company for a better deal.

I hate to be the one to break it to you ChildLabour, but you have inadvertently shot your arguement down in your own post, because whilst we all have monthly salary, retirement age, p-fund contributions in our contracts, only Expats( rightly or wrongly) have housing allowance written into theirs, and unfair as that may seem to you now, it is a fact, and one that was ( or should have been) obvious to you when you signed yours....

Now, having said that....none of us like to see the specifics of the above list of contractual items change ( unless they are an improvement of course) and all of us will agree that we want to defend the contacts that we signed with vigor, but from a legal stand point, it is going to be hard to have a defense that is basically " I know what I signed up for, but now I want it changed" Can you not see that???

How is it any different to me ( as a B scaler) going into the AOA tomorrow and saying...."you know what guys...I know I joined on B scale, but I now feel (14 years later) discriminated against because there are plenty of people doing the same job on A scale salary and benefits. So I would now like the union to fully support my discrimination suit against the company for this unfair treatment"
What do you suppose the response would be???
Really....How is it any different???

Mullah thinks that it would be opening up a Pandoras Box to suggest that the AOA use the A Scale Local Captains $24000/ mo housing assistance as a "fairness meter", and he assures us that it would be unilaterally rejected by the Company....Why would that be an unreasonable yard stick as a means of comparison, but the Expat Housing Allowance isn't???

I know that this "discrimination" accusation made by the AOA has not been launched in a deliberate attempt to attack the Expat Housing Assistance, nor do I feel that most of the CEP's would want that message being sent out as their agenda....however, when you read headlines in the newspaper that read "LOCAL PILOTS FLYING OFF THE HANDLE AT EXPAT PERKS" that is exactly the message that is being sent out!

What I am saying, is that in any negotiation, success, or the lack of it, can be decided before the two parties even enter the room. Its called perception and salesmanship...a lot depends on how you "sell" something to the other side, and how you are being perceived to be conducting yourself before, during, and after the negotiation can have a dramatic impact on the results.

The AOA is selling this thing COMPLETELY the wrong way!!! They need to be trying to get the best deal for the CEP's / LEP's , and in doing so, not risk undermining the conditions of the rest of the pilot body. In this poorly thought out "preemptive strike", well ahead of talks that were to be held to discuss the conditions of ALL aircrew, they are already building a wall between any negotiating teams, before they even take their seats.

As much as it may take the "wind out of your sails", in all my years of flying here, I have NEVER heard anyone on a Flight Deck, or in a Bar, suggest that they would like to see another "demographic" suffer on lower conditions....and that is NOT what is happening now. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't be striving for something better, far from it...what we are saying is that there are better ways of achieving your aims than by throwing your toys out of the cot and saying " I want what he or she has , or else" I hate to break it to you, but that sh*t doensn't work around here...it always has the opposite effect.

You need to be instructing the AOA that you would like to keep things positive, civil and respectful leading into the Housing Negotiations, while reminding the company of the DPA's successful negotiation with DA for housing assistance for ALL Crew, .....Respectfully highlighting the CEP's support for SLS and help during SARS etc, while emphasizing what you feel are the inequities of conditions between various groups within the CX ranks... Remind the Company that it is not fair to essentially be "bonded" for life re: training costs, while showing your professionalism as a mature , competent faction within the Aircrew Body. To scupper the talks before they even start (and that is the potential end result of what the newspaper headlines are currently stating) is not exactly first rate negotiating tactics. And before you say it...we all know that the newspapers take liberties...but the union does have a certain amount of control over what the headlines say.

I don't begrudge the A scaler for signing up for his "fancy package", nor do I think anyone should begrudge me my Housing Assistance, and I know most don't, but your "two Yachts in the Gold Coast" rhetoric towards the people who simply accepted the terms of a contract that was based on the market value for EXPERIENCED pilots from overseas, doesn't exactly sell me on your "We are not attacking the Expats" pitch. I say experienced, because whether you like it or not, the fact that we had experience was the difference in the Contract that was on offer.

We ALL want better conditions of service, for ALL. Nobody is trying to prevent another from getting a better deal, but the current "push" from the AOA not only jeopardizes your chances of getting what you are after, it has the potential to undermine ALL that has been fought for in the past

[TGIG]

Just exactly what am I meant to be envious about? You seem like quite a miserable fellow

[BusyB]

I have to say I feel nothing but contempt for those opposing any improvement in CEP's allowances.

I have not heard of ANYbody refusing an increase in any of the allowances we get.

Hypocrisy rules here

[CXChildLabour]

iceman50,

The housing allowance I receive and pay tax on, does NOT go into my pocket but that of a "Local" Landlord!

Whose fault is it if you decide u wanna rent instead of buying with ur allowance? You might as well tell me that the salary you receive and pay tax on does not go into your pocket but your wife's. And what does your "Local" Landlord has anything to do with this? Sorry to report but we don't have a wealth sharing scheme amongst all local Hongers here. Or are you trying to tell us that your "Local" Landlord is a CEP and convince us that he's getting expat housing allowance through you?

My children do not speak cantonese and would NOT have been accepted at a local school, EVEN though I pay HK taxes.

Of course all children of CEP's speak fluent Cantonese. Get with the program before you try to argue next time dude.

I am not on A scale, do not receive a travel fund and my FOC was "supposed" to allow me to return to my HOME country, not go on "Holiday".

And I tried to return to my HOME country last time and got offloaded three flights in a row with my priority 11 confirmed FOC in ECONOMY, and I wasn't going on "Holiday", your point?

We would all like more money, but you cannot change your contract just because of envy.

So please don't change your contract to COS08 or else you're really just slapping yourself right in the face with humiliation. Cause the whole RA65 thing is PURELY being ENVIOUS of pilots being able to work till 65 elsewhere in the world. Everyone was happily signing onto RA55 when they joined and all of a sudden they see pilots around the world are getting RA65, then they became ENVIOUS of them and wanted it in their contract as well. Wait, I'm feeling something, what is it? OH, DEJAVU!!!!!!!

Unfortunately I think the AOA and the GC if they have approved this line of action have lost the plot!

Yes, just like they did allowing DEFO's and RA65 into our COS.

[katana]

Hong Kong based pilots should receive Hong Kong Base salary and allowances.

It's what your licence is worth.

[gofor]

For the LEP. If you want expat package I believe emirates and Korean are hiring...go on, after all CX is 25% overstaffed apparently...like they say , be3 carefull what you wish for!

[CXChildLabour]

gofor,

Emirates and Korean are hiring if you want an extra 10 years of housing allowance and a later retirement age. How's that? You like?

[iLuvPX]

Let the Air Chinafication of CX begin. Its a race to the bottom now.

Not one spineless cadet said a word to management when they signed up for the job. CX showed them the entire payscale and allowances they would receive for the duration of their careers, and not one of them brought up a grievance...but the HK GREED has kicked in and now they want what they arent entitled to.

What the AOA have done is polarizing, and im taking sides, and so should the rest of you. All this cadet whinging will inevitably bring DOWN everyone else's conditions. Im not going to sit by and let some greedy ENVIOUS cadet take away from my housing allowance, something they agreed they would never get but now want. So pick a side and be heard..your conditions may depend on it.

I'd be happy to support a basic salary rise for the CEPs, but getting expat housing is ridiculous. The equality argument is nonsense also, most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China. Some of you mistake that a racism but its purely from observation, I just have the balls to say it here. Its the same thing repeated at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, everyone knows it except the cadets apparently...

[CXChildLabour]

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China. Some of you mistake that a racism but its purely from observation, I just have the balls to say it here. Its the same thing repeated at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, everyone knows it except the cadets apparently...

You might have the balls to say it here, do you have to balls to say it right in CEP's faces? Especially those who has proven themselves and approved by the company that they're worthy of training and checking your so-called better quality expat pilots. I could tell you I heard the exact same thing about DEFO's, DEC's, DESO's, and even T&C's at bars, on the flight deck, in lounges, management meetings, and everyone knows it except for those concerned apparently. I can tell you straight up that I'm an average pilot at best but if I had to take control from my expat partner in sims because they were flipping the a/c during V1 cut or busting cleared altitutdes or doing unstable approaches and still not going around, I really would like to know what you would consider as "better quality pilots". Maybe instead of the CEP's getting any sort of improvement, we should strip those who perform worse than CEP's from their housing if your theory is correct.

[christn]

I understand that after years of apathy there has recently been a large increase in the number of LEPs joining the AOA. Surely a coincidence?

[CXChildLabour]

I understand that after years of apathy there has recently been a large increase in the number of LEPs joining the AOA. Surely a coincidence?

After years of complaining the LEP's not joining the AOA and deeming us as not supportive of the pilot body, you're complaining that we did join now? I'm SURE none of the non-CEP AOA members remained apathy for years and recently joined after the AOA changed president and started to actually get something done. Mind reminding me what was the percentage of members in 2007?

I can tell you I joined shortly after PW became president for the following reason. While ST was still pres he asked during a flight if I was an AOA member, I asked him what the AOA could do for the LEP's. Reply was "we only have certain amount of resources and a lot of priority issues above the LEP's". Yeah, become a part of the pilot body so we could take your money and help out our own issues, though don't come to us if you want our support in yours. Thanks but no thanks. Whereas now AOA actually promised to be just as supportive to the CEP's and thus we're no longer hestitant in supporting the whole pilot body, including our expat counterparts, and you're bching about us joining? Get a life, make up your mind and shut up.

[Flap10]

You say,

While ST was still pres he asked during a flight if I was an AOA member, I asked him what the AOA could do for the LEP's. Reply was "we only have certain amount of resources and a lot of priority issues above the LEP's"......Thanks but no thanks

followed by,

Whereas now AOA actually promised to be just as supportive to the CEP's and thus we're no longer hestitant in supporting the whole pilot body, including our expat counterparts,

So the only issue you care about seems to be the "expat benefits" for Locally Employed Pilots and hence your reason for not previously joining the AoA. Now that they have dangled the carrot in front of you, you want to support the whole pilot body,,,,that is mighty fine of you, but what if your fight is unsuccessful, will you resign and not care about other important issues that affect the whole pilot body, such as rostering, etc...????

Right from the start you have come across as a spoiled little CBC brat, my perception hasn't changed at all.

[cxorcist]

"Forward together, backwards apart."

"No I in TEAM!"

"I got mine, go find yours elsewhere."

You guys are pathetic. You don't deserve any better than steadily degrading conditions. A, B, F (ASL) scale. When will you learn? Looking like never...

[iceman50]

CXChildLabour

You are a spoiled little boy aren't you and I am not a dude or your mate! When I joined "dude" there were NO 95% plus cash back mortgages around, you had to upfront 30% in hard cash. So there were many reasons for NOT buying and your answer shows your reasons for wanting a housing allowance - envy!

You know what your contract entailed when you joined, live with it and stop whining like a baby or tell you what your your vast experience and licence and get an "expat" job somewhere else!

[geh065]

Not one spineless cadet said a word to management when they signed up for the job.

Thats just plain insulting and you are making this issue personal. It has never been CEPs against Expats, why do you have to make it so? Once again, what are expats scared of? Losing something you currently receive? None of this is about taking anything away from the expat package. Get that into your brain.

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots,

In terms of what? Each and every Cathay pilot is required to pass sims and checks done at the Cathay standard. If you do not pass, then you leave the company. it is as simple as that. Expats are these days employed because a position cannot be filled locally. With the start of this international cadet scheme the days of the expat could well be numbered, simply because they do not have to employ them. Don't be big headed enough to think that expats were employed because they measure up better. We are all just a bum in a seat to fly the plane from A to B. Having 1500hrs in a Metro does not make one a better pilot that a CEP, especially after years of flying a widebody around the CX network.

There is a lot of talk of the CEPs arguing the correct way, well I am afraid the expat arguements on here are not exactly impressive either.

[cxlinedriver]

Racist???

Funny how the HKAOA has only taken an active interest in Cadet Pilot housing allowances now that non-HKG (ie non-Chinese) people can become Cadets.

[betpump5]

IluvPX,

are you trying to win the award for the most inuslting comments? You absolutely disgust me. Has a cadet wronged you in a previous life?

Are you telling me that at no point in your 50 year career did you ever ask for or fight for better T&Cs to the ones you "signed up for" at the interview? Give me a break.

most CEPs dont measure up to expat pilots, thats why the overwhelming majority of CX pilots are from around the world and not HK/China

We all suffer sh!t from time to time but remain professional. However with a comment like that, I find it really difficult. So here it is:

off