Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
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I can't agree with you more Cpt. Underpants. Call it pay, allowance, housing, rent assistance, under-the-table-money, whatever, WE DO NOT CARE. At the end of the day, it's equality that we're looking for.
Lowkoon, I sure hope you can write to the company on CEP's behave, cause as of right now, even those CEP's with 1000 multi command time ARE NOT getting equal pay. So thank you very much for your support in advance.
And those who keeps saying that the cadets took a backdoor, jumped the queue, or what have you. Please explain to me why then are those instructor cadets getting full housing allowance? They had no experience when they joined the program and would NOT have any commercial command time when they come back to CX. I'm sure it's a coincidence that a senior captain's son just so happens to be in the course, even though he originally was accepted into the normal cadet course. It's interesting to note that a handful of CEP's (even captains) actually asked about the possibility of going back down to ADL to be in the instructor course.
With NR citing on a RTHK talkshow today the possibility of doing away housing allowances and giving a cash allowance instead, which I'm sure will be MUCH MUCH less than what expats are getting right now, I am actually looking forward to the day the "other" pilot group starts crying foul and look for support from the "remaining" pilot body in their fight to keep their housing. Highly doubt the CEP's would come back and say "we warned you so live with it".
Lowkoon, I sure hope you can write to the company on CEP's behave, cause as of right now, even those CEP's with 1000 multi command time ARE NOT getting equal pay. So thank you very much for your support in advance.
And those who keeps saying that the cadets took a backdoor, jumped the queue, or what have you. Please explain to me why then are those instructor cadets getting full housing allowance? They had no experience when they joined the program and would NOT have any commercial command time when they come back to CX. I'm sure it's a coincidence that a senior captain's son just so happens to be in the course, even though he originally was accepted into the normal cadet course. It's interesting to note that a handful of CEP's (even captains) actually asked about the possibility of going back down to ADL to be in the instructor course.
With NR citing on a RTHK talkshow today the possibility of doing away housing allowances and giving a cash allowance instead, which I'm sure will be MUCH MUCH less than what expats are getting right now, I am actually looking forward to the day the "other" pilot group starts crying foul and look for support from the "remaining" pilot body in their fight to keep their housing. Highly doubt the CEP's would come back and say "we warned you so live with it".
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cxchildlabor,
You are one twisted bitter envious individual and I certainly hope the rest of the LEPs don't share your views
You know what, if the day comes when CX takes away the housing allowance I'll put my money where my mouth and I will leave CX, but I'll bet my life savings that should you be unsuccessful in your fight, you will remain here in CX like the good little bitch that you are, so stop your F
ng whinging, I've had just about enough of you!
I am actually looking forward to the day the "other" pilot group starts crying foul and look for support from the "remaining" pilot body in their fight to keep their housing. Highly doubt the CEP's would come back and say "we warned you so live with it".
You know what, if the day comes when CX takes away the housing allowance I'll put my money where my mouth and I will leave CX, but I'll bet my life savings that should you be unsuccessful in your fight, you will remain here in CX like the good little bitch that you are, so stop your F
ng whinging, I've had just about enough of you!
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BusyB and Ali, I'd actually heard about it about 5+ years ago.
btw Ali, how is the housing argument disingenuous....would you mind sharing your viewpoint? Calling the CEP perspective false is pretty strong terminology.
btw Ali, how is the housing argument disingenuous....would you mind sharing your viewpoint? Calling the CEP perspective false is pretty strong terminology.
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Yes, envy is the keyword in this debate. The LEPs are envious of their expat peers for getting more renumerations for doing the same job. The expats are envious of the LEP for getting a jet job at a much younger age. CX management are envious of HX management for having a "lapdog" pilot group!
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Look its quite simple really. LEP bring to the table a lesser product than most expats, therefore get paid accordingly. You cant demand the same pay for less experience and skill. They were happy to sign-up for the job with those conditions, now they are just envious and greedy. Pilots on bases dont get an allowance, no complaints there.
Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front, than some crusty ole expats. Think about it.
Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front, than some crusty ole expats. Think about it.
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"....Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front...."
Also, don't be surprised to fly with certain Management pilots who are ex-cadets....
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The argument is disingenuous for one simple reason: if you were to get housing allowance in HK, why should not every pilot in his home base also get a housing allowance? Also, do local bankers get a housing allowance...or any other local in a high paying job? I support you getting a pay raise, but I can't see why you should get a housing allowance. Remember, most expats have to dedicate a large piece of their salary towards paying for a house back in their home country. That is the main reason they must get a housing allowance in Hong Kong. Either that, or there is suddenly 2600+ locally experienced pilots that CX can hire to replace us.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Hong Kong Government gives expat employees (who are overwhelmingly in higher-paying positions) and Local Hong Kong employees the exact same housing deal.
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69er,
Well, as much of a twisted bitter envious individual u claim that I am, at least I know what fair, equal, unity and peer support actually mean. If you read my post again it was more about CEP would show support for their expatriate counterparts if that does happen one day, rather than dissing their peers for their own benefit, cause we all know what it feels like on the other end of the stick.
iLuvPX, it's a pity that you don't sleep well with two ex-cadets up front flying together. I sure hope you have better sleep with two direct entry FO's up front, cause u'll need it when the plane makes a 180 turn due to lack of contingency fuel crossing the Pacific. Funny enough, these guys would be considered to have enough experience and skills to be an expat in HKG 4 years later.
You are one twisted bitter envious individual and I certainly hope the rest of the LEPs don't share your views
iLuvPX, it's a pity that you don't sleep well with two ex-cadets up front flying together. I sure hope you have better sleep with two direct entry FO's up front, cause u'll need it when the plane makes a 180 turn due to lack of contingency fuel crossing the Pacific. Funny enough, these guys would be considered to have enough experience and skills to be an expat in HKG 4 years later.
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Childlabour (and all the other CEP's). It is not that we don't support you, we completely support your right to a fair and equitable contract. It's just the philisophical difference of opinion regarding Housing Allowance. It does not seem reasonable that local born and bred pilots should expect an allowance for something that is necessary for expats (because they would have to be paying for and maintaining a house in their home countries). I don't think this is a difficult concept to understand. In addition, if the HK locals got housing, then why shouldn't the based pilots receive housing? I think a better approach would be to ask for an improvement to pay and other benefits. That is something that we can all support.
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Common Sense
Come on guys and gals! Stop arguing with each other about this, and let's throw our support behind the CEPs (LEPs). We all share a common opponent in this struggle. The notion that "their" gain will result in "our" loss is non-sensical. CX has plenty to go around.
It is ridiculous to suggest that a year-long cadet course is worth a career's worth of housing allowance. There is no doubt that some period of apprenticeship or pay back should be required, but not this much for this long. It is discrimination and wrong no matter how you slice it. Hong Kong is one of the most expensive places in the world, and a SO or FO salary without housing is undoubtedly insufficient to live much above the poverty levels. The captains 24K is little more than a proverbial slap in the face.
CEPs are professional pilots, and they deserve the opportunity to be compensated equally once their experience rivals that of the expats. To argue that they should be held back for their entire career is absurd.
For those of you requiring further convincing, consider how much stronger our pilot group is with the CEPs in the AOA. They recently joined in mass and pushed us above 70% membership. Their presence makes us much stronger going into future negotiations. We ALL need this strength. Those of you who "free-ride" have the opposite effect. So get it together and join!
It is ridiculous to suggest that a year-long cadet course is worth a career's worth of housing allowance. There is no doubt that some period of apprenticeship or pay back should be required, but not this much for this long. It is discrimination and wrong no matter how you slice it. Hong Kong is one of the most expensive places in the world, and a SO or FO salary without housing is undoubtedly insufficient to live much above the poverty levels. The captains 24K is little more than a proverbial slap in the face.
CEPs are professional pilots, and they deserve the opportunity to be compensated equally once their experience rivals that of the expats. To argue that they should be held back for their entire career is absurd.
For those of you requiring further convincing, consider how much stronger our pilot group is with the CEPs in the AOA. They recently joined in mass and pushed us above 70% membership. Their presence makes us much stronger going into future negotiations. We ALL need this strength. Those of you who "free-ride" have the opposite effect. So get it together and join!
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cxorcist. You are MISSING THE POINT. We ALL support the CEP's, but I can't support them on the issue of housing allowance. A substantial increase in pay is reasonable, but housing is something for expats (for the reasons explained). To keep hanging on to the issue is pointless. Housing is not available on a base, so why should someone 'local' in HK get it? If you want to keep ignoring the points raised, then go ahead, but all you do is lead the CEP's down a blind alley. We can ALL agree that pay raises are deserved and well overdue, but you are distracting the company away from that with the issue of housing for locals. In the end, everyone will be worse off...including the CEP's. 
ps. I live in London, arguably the worlds MOST expensive city (with much higher taxes to boot). Shouldn't I be entitled to housing allowance based on your logic??
ps. I live in London, arguably the worlds MOST expensive city (with much higher taxes to boot). Shouldn't I be entitled to housing allowance based on your logic??
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Watercheck,
I'm sure most CEP's would agree with me that WE DO NOT CARE how the improvement is incorporated. Whether it's an improvement in pay, benefits, allowance, whatever. AS LONG AS it's something that would bring our level of income AND JOB RESPECT to a similar level as the guy next on the list. And in doing so we DO NOT want any degradation in condition for any of our counterparts.
And for the MILLIONTH time EVERYONE, we respect the fact that the company invested in our career and a payback period is required. Just that it should be a REASONABLE FIXED period, be it 3 years, 6 years, 10 years, whatever, JUST NOT THE WHOLE FING CAREER.
As for the whole basing thing, well respected. However, direct entry has a choice of lifestyle or load up his bank account, doesn't matter how much/less experience he has (in or out of this company) he still has a choice. As for CEP, there's the choice of getting screwed financially for life, or still getting screwed financially for life cause we couldn't load the bank account up before going onto a base. We simply had no choice if we want to have the slightest chance to be able to retire with a survivable saving at the end.
I'm sure most CEP's would agree with me that WE DO NOT CARE how the improvement is incorporated. Whether it's an improvement in pay, benefits, allowance, whatever. AS LONG AS it's something that would bring our level of income AND JOB RESPECT to a similar level as the guy next on the list. And in doing so we DO NOT want any degradation in condition for any of our counterparts.
And for the MILLIONTH time EVERYONE, we respect the fact that the company invested in our career and a payback period is required. Just that it should be a REASONABLE FIXED period, be it 3 years, 6 years, 10 years, whatever, JUST NOT THE WHOLE F
ING CAREER.As for the whole basing thing, well respected. However, direct entry has a choice of lifestyle or load up his bank account, doesn't matter how much/less experience he has (in or out of this company) he still has a choice. As for CEP, there's the choice of getting screwed financially for life, or still getting screwed financially for life cause we couldn't load the bank account up before going onto a base. We simply had no choice if we want to have the slightest chance to be able to retire with a survivable saving at the end.
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Water Check
No offense, but it may be you that is missing the point. You, presumably, have the option to come back to Hong Kong and collect a full housing allowance, but you choose to live and base in London. (BTW - You could live somewhere less expensive in the UK and commute.) Where can CEPs live except in Hong Kong?
You are a CX pilot and the CEPs are CX pilots. The only differences are the entry mechanism, country of origin, and most likely the amount of experience upon joining. In my post, I wrote that there should be an apprenticeship or period of pay-back for CEPs; after which they should be entitled to the same compensation as expats.
You are a CX pilot and the CEPs are CX pilots. The only differences are the entry mechanism, country of origin, and most likely the amount of experience upon joining. In my post, I wrote that there should be an apprenticeship or period of pay-back for CEPs; after which they should be entitled to the same compensation as expats.
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How about lemmings over a cliff....
CxChildLabour and antagonists
Please re-read my post #14. What's happening on this thread is internicine lunacy. There is a more appropriate place to discuss matters such as this so start a thread there if you want to. That way you'll not run the risk of this debate (I use the term lightly) being fuelled by someone who might have a different agenda.
Please re-read my post #25. So far, all the announcement seems to have achieved is opening up a bit of a Pandora's Box.
Come on guys, think about what's happening here.
STP
Please re-read my post #14. What's happening on this thread is internicine lunacy. There is a more appropriate place to discuss matters such as this so start a thread there if you want to. That way you'll not run the risk of this debate (I use the term lightly) being fuelled by someone who might have a different agenda.
Please re-read my post #25. So far, all the announcement seems to have achieved is opening up a bit of a Pandora's Box.
Come on guys, think about what's happening here.
STP
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CXchildlabour,
To get the same "level of income or RESPECT" you have to earn it. You just cant start from nothing, get your training paid for, and jump straight to a major airline and expect to be treated like someone else who spent decades building the required experience. Thats just ridiculous.
Cadets/LEP's would deserve the same pay if CX compensated every other pilot for their years of training, late night cargo flights, hauling trash around northern canada, the outback, or where ever.
To make it fair, all pilots would have to get a housing allowance, based or not. What makes you so special?
To get the same "level of income or RESPECT" you have to earn it. You just cant start from nothing, get your training paid for, and jump straight to a major airline and expect to be treated like someone else who spent decades building the required experience. Thats just ridiculous.
Cadets/LEP's would deserve the same pay if CX compensated every other pilot for their years of training, late night cargo flights, hauling trash around northern canada, the outback, or where ever.
To make it fair, all pilots would have to get a housing allowance, based or not. What makes you so special?
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Im no racist, but I just dont sleep as well when there are two local ex-cadets up front, than some crusty ole expats. Think about it.
The locals are hired after a barrage of tests and intense training. If they are not very capable, they do not pass all this. Some expats have had a rather chequered histrory prior to CX but because they have the hours and pass the interview process, they get in. The same expats sometimes admit that if they were the do the intense course the locals do, that they would probably not have passed, and having seen their flying skills, I believe it!
This is nothing about race and please don't make it so. This is a public forum.
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Embarrassed to be one of you
After reading all of these post I've come to one conclusion, we all want more money. Be it the CEP, B-scalers or based pilots. There are various arguments for all parties involved on why they(we) should get more money.
Most of these individual arguments makes for some compelling reading and some do actually make sense.
What I don't understand is that some guys on this forum are willing to cut of their fellow CX pilots throats to hopefully gain this advantage. Stop being so self-centered and look at the bigger picture (NOT you account).
That is why CX management is getting away with it to pay us less for more productivity. Instead of standing together and helping one group of pilots, we all try and fight to better our own packages individually. In doing so we keep on pushing each other down.
Better conditions for one group will on the long run mean better conditions for us all. If we support one group and they get a better deal, then the next group will have so much more grounds for getting a better deal as well. (and support from the rest of the pilot group).
My only conclusion to all of this childish bickering and the "we are better than them" attitudes is that you guys are not the professionals that you pretend to be, and if I was management I would also not take you seriously.
Now, bring it on. I've got broad shoulders.
Most of these individual arguments makes for some compelling reading and some do actually make sense.
What I don't understand is that some guys on this forum are willing to cut of their fellow CX pilots throats to hopefully gain this advantage. Stop being so self-centered and look at the bigger picture (NOT you account).
That is why CX management is getting away with it to pay us less for more productivity. Instead of standing together and helping one group of pilots, we all try and fight to better our own packages individually. In doing so we keep on pushing each other down.
Better conditions for one group will on the long run mean better conditions for us all. If we support one group and they get a better deal, then the next group will have so much more grounds for getting a better deal as well. (and support from the rest of the pilot group).
My only conclusion to all of this childish bickering and the "we are better than them" attitudes is that you guys are not the professionals that you pretend to be, and if I was management I would also not take you seriously.
Now, bring it on. I've got broad shoulders.