HKA runway incursion HKG
etops777
I was thinking more along the lines of the rest of the world. I would love to see some of the ATC controllers from Sydney go to JFK or LHR for a few months and learn how to do the job properly. And yes I am Australian. It says a lot really doesn’t it?
I was thinking more along the lines of the rest of the world. I would love to see some of the ATC controllers from Sydney go to JFK or LHR for a few months and learn how to do the job properly. And yes I am Australian. It says a lot really doesn’t it?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From memory the stop bars are automatically selected on the high speed exits according to which runway is selected.This is to prevent the situation that nearly happened.There is no need to have a stop bar deselected in that area,and you only deselect them to allow something to enter the runway.
Also you used to be able to select the default taxi route in that area.What I'm a little concerned is that Ground South didn't pick it up sooner,although in practice you can be looking at the south /west /cargo aprons.
Runway incursions can happen for all sorts of reasons especially if you start introducing vehicles into the equation.There was another layer of Cheese to go on this incident.The pilot noticed eventually and stopped.The stopbar stopped the aircraft.I'm sure GMS told the aircraft to stop.AMS told the departure to stop.Very good call.There is also a warning on the Surface movement radar,so the controller can see if there is a problem.I wouldn't have thought that situation would have triggered an alert because the aircraft didn't cross the stop bar.
Perhaps Hong Kong Airlines would be wise to look up what happened at Milan,and stop talking a load of old c
ck.
Also you used to be able to select the default taxi route in that area.What I'm a little concerned is that Ground South didn't pick it up sooner,although in practice you can be looking at the south /west /cargo aprons.
Runway incursions can happen for all sorts of reasons especially if you start introducing vehicles into the equation.There was another layer of Cheese to go on this incident.The pilot noticed eventually and stopped.The stopbar stopped the aircraft.I'm sure GMS told the aircraft to stop.AMS told the departure to stop.Very good call.There is also a warning on the Surface movement radar,so the controller can see if there is a problem.I wouldn't have thought that situation would have triggered an alert because the aircraft didn't cross the stop bar.
Perhaps Hong Kong Airlines would be wise to look up what happened at Milan,and stop talking a load of old c
ck.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do work for Hong Kong Airlines for real.
Yes, our management ain't the best, but we are trying as hard as we can to do the best job under less then ideal conditions. I won't name names here, but let me just say we are doing our best in spite of the management. As for this incursion, no one at this point know the full facts. All we have is a newspaper article which may or may not represent a true picture. I suggest you all wait until we get more details before you all jump the gun.
And this "collusion" between CAD? Have any of you heard of ICAC in Hong Kong? Don't kid me. If we were to give any kind of bribes, ICAC will be on our asses before the day is out.
And as for you mass debator, snakeslugger, prettycrosesus and 404 Titan, you must be those expat pilots fired earlier. Well, sucks to be you. But life ain't fair. Trying to get even with your ex-employer won't help you one bit.
Also HKAir, I don't find your attempt at sarcastic humour funny at all. We are trying to be professional and serious in spite of the working environment.
So may I kindly suggest you all shut it until we know more about this "runway incurison"?
Yes, our management ain't the best, but we are trying as hard as we can to do the best job under less then ideal conditions. I won't name names here, but let me just say we are doing our best in spite of the management. As for this incursion, no one at this point know the full facts. All we have is a newspaper article which may or may not represent a true picture. I suggest you all wait until we get more details before you all jump the gun.
And this "collusion" between CAD? Have any of you heard of ICAC in Hong Kong? Don't kid me. If we were to give any kind of bribes, ICAC will be on our asses before the day is out.
And as for you mass debator, snakeslugger, prettycrosesus and 404 Titan, you must be those expat pilots fired earlier. Well, sucks to be you. But life ain't fair. Trying to get even with your ex-employer won't help you one bit.
Also HKAir, I don't find your attempt at sarcastic humour funny at all. We are trying to be professional and serious in spite of the working environment.
So may I kindly suggest you all shut it until we know more about this "runway incurison"?
Aussiestinks
What part of post #65 do you fail to comprehend? Let me post it again for you:
If you still don’t believe me go back and read some of my past posts to 2001 when I first signed up for Pprune. My threads will give you a clue who I work for and who I have continuously worked for, for the past 10 years.
It’s pretty typical of some people that can’t debate a topic sensibly. They attack the posters rather than debate the topic.
As for the details of this event? It may surprise you but I know more about it than what I have posted here. How about you?
What part of post #65 do you fail to comprehend? Let me post it again for you:
I don’t and have never worked for HKA so therefore I have no axe to grind with them.
It’s pretty typical of some people that can’t debate a topic sensibly. They attack the posters rather than debate the topic.
As for the details of this event? It may surprise you but I know more about it than what I have posted here. How about you?
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I was mistaken there. But people can say whatever they want. You may not have worked for HKA, but maybe you have undisclosed interest which lead you to have bias against HKA? And are you suggesting pprune posters don't attack one another? Please, like that whole moronic Australians vs. Southeast Asians debate.
Anyway, that's beside the point. Now you say you know more about this "incursion". Well then, let's hear it. Let's see if what you know conforms with what will come out later. After all, that's the only way to prove whether you really do know what transpired and aren't basing it solely on rumours and speculation.
Anyway, that's beside the point. Now you say you know more about this "incursion". Well then, let's hear it. Let's see if what you know conforms with what will come out later. After all, that's the only way to prove whether you really do know what transpired and aren't basing it solely on rumours and speculation.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My bullsh*t filters have got seriously clogged up reading most of the posts on this thread!
The important facts are that the 737 took the wrong turn, but stopped before he crossed the red lights and entered the active runway. An initial error was made, but the aircraft was brought to a stop to clarify the clearance before the next potential (catastrophic) error was made.
Meanwhile the Tower controller spotted the error, told the 737 to hold position and without waiting for a response canceled the take-off clearance for the CX 777. This RTO was expeditiously carried out at low speed. This sort of thing happens from time to time. Twice so far to me, once due to HKATC and once due to KA over the past 15 years.
Basically a mistake was made, but all the subsequent holes in the swiss-cheese failed to line up because everyone was on the ball, and did their job.
The obvious issue worth review is for the 737 operator regarding how they read-back, cross-check and re-state their taxi clearances. Probably the place everyone is most complacent with taxiing is their home base, which is why puritan SOP's are important.
On the very first sector of my command course, a very senior-well respected BTC (yes
) was the PF ex-HKG. We taxied from the north side down "W" onto "J" for 25L. However, he tried to turn right on "J" as if departing on 07R!!!! As a trainee on a hair-trigger, I was on top of this and we were still able to complete a shoddy turn in the right direction. I initially thought that, "oh-blast, this command course, is going to be a real pain!". However, it was a genuine error. The BTC had departed off 07R for the past 4 days in a row, and had relaxed his guard. I thank him for a great lesson!
In a training situation this is doubly likely to happen, because you are often thinking about how to debrief things which occurred during the pre-departure phase, or maybe thinking about how to discuss the next issue. Being very current is closely associated with a risk of becoming complacent. Trainers beware!
Sooner or later, we will all make a significant professional mistake. This is guaranteed. If we were bankers etc, then our bonus would be at stake. If we were Medical doctors then a patients life would be at stake! However, as Airline pilots we are usually assumed to be the culprits in the smokey front row seats at the scene of the accident, when anyone involved in our operation makes a mistake. Vigilance and robust SOP's may be a pain to adopt, but they are essential for this HKG 737 operator to develop into a professional operation.
I laughed when I read the Malaysian comments regarding CX difficulties with understanding Malaysian ATC English. Has this correspondent flown outside of Asia recently? Been to JFK, LAX, SFO, LHR, CDG, FRA or SYD recently? Listened to every other legacy Carrier from across the world struggle with south-east Asian colloquialism.
It is nice to hear that CX flights need a couple of read-backs to ensure that their clearance is correct, that is what we are supposed to do when faced with non ICAO phraseology etc. Would Malaysian ATC please always state QNH when clearing aircraft for descent to altitudes (as the rest of the world do). Please also state "descend altitude five thousand" rather than "descend five thousand", which is again non-ICAO.
NOTAMS in this region are internationally a joke. Some years ago I was due to depart, and after protracted delays (by this time, on the taxi-way with engines running) it became evident that the airport was closed for 30+? minutes because an Airbus380 was doing a fly-past. Nothing was NOTAMed.
Some years ago I operated a KUL-PEN sector. The weather was horrible. During the transit in KUL, we listened to the TWR frequency and heard a SEA local carrier cleared for take off. He responded, that he would need an immediate turn after take-off, stating a heading (approximately 90 degrees off runway heading) due to "CB". Tower responded, "cleared for take-off, make your request with departure freq xxxx". The local carrier then proceeded to take off, contacted departure, and merely requested the heading. After being granted the heading he reported "wind-shear loss of 30 knots".
The important facts are that the 737 took the wrong turn, but stopped before he crossed the red lights and entered the active runway. An initial error was made, but the aircraft was brought to a stop to clarify the clearance before the next potential (catastrophic) error was made.
Meanwhile the Tower controller spotted the error, told the 737 to hold position and without waiting for a response canceled the take-off clearance for the CX 777. This RTO was expeditiously carried out at low speed. This sort of thing happens from time to time. Twice so far to me, once due to HKATC and once due to KA over the past 15 years.
Basically a mistake was made, but all the subsequent holes in the swiss-cheese failed to line up because everyone was on the ball, and did their job.
The obvious issue worth review is for the 737 operator regarding how they read-back, cross-check and re-state their taxi clearances. Probably the place everyone is most complacent with taxiing is their home base, which is why puritan SOP's are important.
On the very first sector of my command course, a very senior-well respected BTC (yes
) was the PF ex-HKG. We taxied from the north side down "W" onto "J" for 25L. However, he tried to turn right on "J" as if departing on 07R!!!! As a trainee on a hair-trigger, I was on top of this and we were still able to complete a shoddy turn in the right direction. I initially thought that, "oh-blast, this command course, is going to be a real pain!". However, it was a genuine error. The BTC had departed off 07R for the past 4 days in a row, and had relaxed his guard. I thank him for a great lesson!In a training situation this is doubly likely to happen, because you are often thinking about how to debrief things which occurred during the pre-departure phase, or maybe thinking about how to discuss the next issue. Being very current is closely associated with a risk of becoming complacent. Trainers beware!
Sooner or later, we will all make a significant professional mistake. This is guaranteed. If we were bankers etc, then our bonus would be at stake. If we were Medical doctors then a patients life would be at stake! However, as Airline pilots we are usually assumed to be the culprits in the smokey front row seats at the scene of the accident, when anyone involved in our operation makes a mistake. Vigilance and robust SOP's may be a pain to adopt, but they are essential for this HKG 737 operator to develop into a professional operation.
I laughed when I read the Malaysian comments regarding CX difficulties with understanding Malaysian ATC English. Has this correspondent flown outside of Asia recently? Been to JFK, LAX, SFO, LHR, CDG, FRA or SYD recently? Listened to every other legacy Carrier from across the world struggle with south-east Asian colloquialism.
It is nice to hear that CX flights need a couple of read-backs to ensure that their clearance is correct, that is what we are supposed to do when faced with non ICAO phraseology etc. Would Malaysian ATC please always state QNH when clearing aircraft for descent to altitudes (as the rest of the world do). Please also state "descend altitude five thousand" rather than "descend five thousand", which is again non-ICAO.
NOTAMS in this region are internationally a joke. Some years ago I was due to depart, and after protracted delays (by this time, on the taxi-way with engines running) it became evident that the airport was closed for 30+? minutes because an Airbus380 was doing a fly-past. Nothing was NOTAMed.
Some years ago I operated a KUL-PEN sector. The weather was horrible. During the transit in KUL, we listened to the TWR frequency and heard a SEA local carrier cleared for take off. He responded, that he would need an immediate turn after take-off, stating a heading (approximately 90 degrees off runway heading) due to "CB". Tower responded, "cleared for take-off, make your request with departure freq xxxx". The local carrier then proceeded to take off, contacted departure, and merely requested the heading. After being granted the heading he reported "wind-shear loss of 30 knots".
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: HKG
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
404 Titan
It’s pretty typical of some people that can’t debate a topic sensibly. They attack the posters rather than debate the topic.
There are always people who fail to learn their lessons. Denial, Denial, Denial......... Anyhow, they will never learn
You are what you paid for and it is so true. See the quality of HX pilots. They are just so typical
It’s pretty typical of some people that can’t debate a topic sensibly. They attack the posters rather than debate the topic.
There are always people who fail to learn their lessons. Denial, Denial, Denial......... Anyhow, they will never learn
You are what you paid for and it is so true. See the quality of HX pilots. They are just so typical
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey I am just getting this off my chest after reading all your posts saying how crap we are. You all make it sound as if we are China Airlines or Garuda. Last time I check, we haven't killed anyone.
Btw, 404 Titan, I'm still waiting to hear your version of the event. What are you going to suggest, that the 737 was planning to go on runway despite seeing the red lights?!
And Tenerife is valid point to raise, it shows even those high and mighty can get complacent with horrific results. So let that be a warning lesson to you all sneering at us.
Btw, 404 Titan, I'm still waiting to hear your version of the event. What are you going to suggest, that the 737 was planning to go on runway despite seeing the red lights?!
And Tenerife is valid point to raise, it shows even those high and mighty can get complacent with horrific results. So let that be a warning lesson to you all sneering at us.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 59
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tragic
A Cessna 172 crashed into a cemetery yesterday in the township of Goosnargh (Lancashire County) Ireland, so far 278 bodies have been recovered as digging continues into the night..............
XOP's..... The Only Way To Operate.....
XOP's..... The Only Way To Operate.....
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the $%!@#^& tsimbeit? We are talking about the runway incursion here. Are you on drugs or something? Wake up from your la la land.
Also, aussiestinks, I know people who worked at Hong Kong Airlines, from what they told me on how they were treated, HKAir may not be so far from the truth.
Also, aussiestinks, I know people who worked at Hong Kong Airlines, from what they told me on how they were treated, HKAir may not be so far from the truth.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know you did'nt mention my name a/stinks but I resigned and now get paid twice as much and have 10 times better chance of survival. Also, of all the guys that got sacked not one that I know of is not in a much netter job, so they are actually grateful to those fwits at HKA.
Pauline Kee lost her job ? Good, Karma in action.
Earth to Jismbelter, is that the best you can do to slag off Aussies, pull one accident out of the archives ? Still a long way to go to catch up with the deaths incurred by carriers around here
Keep smoking that pole though buddy, I am sure your command is only a few weeks away
Wether or not the HKA a/c infringed the runway is a moot point, it frigging well taxied the wrong way down a hi-speed taxiway and who is to say the idiot only stopped after he heard the tower, or not
One of your brain surgeons tried to take of on a taxiway for sake ( I still wonder how this happened every time I taxi out at night ) and you want respect, you have to be joking. This is the same airline that was departing with loose silver ingots in the rear cargo hold...bunch of unprofessional clowns.
Pauline Kee lost her job ? Good, Karma in action.
Earth to Jismbelter, is that the best you can do to slag off Aussies, pull one accident out of the archives ? Still a long way to go to catch up with the deaths incurred by carriers around here
Keep smoking that pole though buddy, I am sure your command is only a few weeks away
Wether or not the HKA a/c infringed the runway is a moot point, it frigging well taxied the wrong way down a hi-speed taxiway and who is to say the idiot only stopped after he heard the tower, or not
One of your brain surgeons tried to take of on a taxiway for
sake ( I still wonder how this happened every time I taxi out at night ) and you want respect, you have to be joking. This is the same airline that was departing with loose silver ingots in the rear cargo hold...bunch of unprofessional clowns.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: swamp
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Fooey
Anyone who hangs around HKA, and didn't have the balls to quit when they could, or stand up to the singa clowns don't deserve any respect.
At the end of the day, you must have some kind of complex or mental brain disorder if you don't get the continuous theme here, that the singa clowns came....they ruined a potentially good airline.....they cheat, they lie, they DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY .
You can pull your racist card.....the "You're no better than anyone else" card and come up with all the pathetic excuses under the sun.....it still doesn't change the fact anything and anyone who associates themselves with the singasnakes need to be brought to justice and given a one way ticket back to singawore and kept away from aviation for ever.
Anyone who hangs around HKA, and didn't have the balls to quit when they could, or stand up to the singa clowns don't deserve any respect.
At the end of the day, you must have some kind of complex or mental brain disorder if you don't get the continuous theme here, that the singa clowns came....they ruined a potentially good airline.....they cheat, they lie, they DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY .
You can pull your racist card.....the "You're no better than anyone else" card and come up with all the pathetic excuses under the sun.....it still doesn't change the fact anything and anyone who associates themselves with the singasnakes need to be brought to justice and given a one way ticket back to singawore and kept away from aviation for ever.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tsimbeit,
You don't get it.
''We all make mistakes''. Tenerife and Milan were the ultimate in mistakes,and many lessons implemented.But does this airline learn from their mistakes.Doesn't look like.
They are talking about an airline that tried to take off on a taxiway,and go the wrong down a high speed exit,at their home airport.
If they did that in the UK they would be blacklisted,CAA audited on safety etc.Shut down even.
Whatever the background,there are the travelling public who deserve the highest safety standards.This airline falls well short,and should be taken to task,before they really do manage to kill a lot of people.The holes are lining up
You don't get it.
''We all make mistakes''.
Tenerife and Milan were the ultimate in mistakes,and many lessons implemented.But does this airline learn from their mistakes.Doesn't look like.They are talking about an airline that tried to take off on a taxiway,and go the wrong down a high speed exit,at their home airport.
If they did that in the UK they would be blacklisted,CAA audited on safety etc.Shut down even.
Whatever the background,there are the travelling public who deserve the highest safety standards.This airline falls well short,and should be taken to task,before they really do manage to kill a lot of people.The holes are lining up
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: swamp
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Dyce
Why Tsembeit continuously posts in a forum he has nothing to do with, no experience with, and obviously doesn't understand is beyond me.
I just hope for aviations sake this goose isn't allowed anywhere the controls of an aircraft. 12-13 hours across the pacific listening to that prat preach would drive anyone to slit their wrists.
Heard ATC getting p!ssed off with "Bohenia" the other night for not being able to follow simple ATC instructions airbourne. Had to be recleared an altitude while other aircraft got vectored round.
Suggestion for ATC - give all Bohenia aircaft with a radio call in a singaswine accent, a 20nm safety envelope. Let them back to HKG once all other real airlines have landed and are at a safe distance. However, if Bohenia doesn't have a singaswine accent......carry on as normal.
Why Tsembeit continuously posts in a forum he has nothing to do with, no experience with, and obviously doesn't understand is beyond me.
I just hope for aviations sake this goose isn't allowed anywhere the controls of an aircraft. 12-13 hours across the pacific listening to that prat preach would drive anyone to slit their wrists.
Heard ATC getting p!ssed off with "Bohenia" the other night for not being able to follow simple ATC instructions airbourne. Had to be recleared an altitude while other aircraft got vectored round.
Suggestion for ATC - give all Bohenia aircaft with a radio call in a singaswine accent, a 20nm safety envelope. Let them back to HKG once all other real airlines have landed and are at a safe distance. However, if Bohenia doesn't have a singaswine accent......carry on as normal.
Last edited by mass debator; 2nd Feb 2010 at 08:55.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: kundu land
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they cheat, they lie, they DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY .
One of the quality or qualification required and that's their 'insurance'.
The saying goes.."Do what I tell you to do, don't do what I do".!
Safe and Happy flying guys!
Aussiestinks
Don’t get your panties in a knot. Some of us actually have to go to work sometimes.
I will let you in on a little secret though. There are three parties to this event. HKA is only one of them. Until the investigation is complete Pprune isn’t the place to discuss in detail what I have been told.
I will leave you with this final thought. What if the weather was like Christmas day with low RVR’s due fog. All jet arrivals are being fed onto 07R due night time maintenance on 07L. Most pax aircraft after completing an auto land in LWMO conditions have been exiting 07R via J6 and J7. Just as a B747-400 lands on 07R with the intent to exit via J7 a HKA B737-800 takes a wrong turn and ends up unknown to both ATC and the landing B747-400 crew, taxiing the wrong way up J7. They realise their mistake when the red stop bars come into view in the thick fog. Luckily they overt a serious runway incursion by managing to pull up before them just as the B747 crew exit on J7 with a mid point RVR of 150m. The outcome unfortunately is self-explanatory.
Don’t get your panties in a knot. Some of us actually have to go to work sometimes.
I will let you in on a little secret though. There are three parties to this event. HKA is only one of them. Until the investigation is complete Pprune isn’t the place to discuss in detail what I have been told.
I will leave you with this final thought. What if the weather was like Christmas day with low RVR’s due fog. All jet arrivals are being fed onto 07R due night time maintenance on 07L. Most pax aircraft after completing an auto land in LWMO conditions have been exiting 07R via J6 and J7. Just as a B747-400 lands on 07R with the intent to exit via J7 a HKA B737-800 takes a wrong turn and ends up unknown to both ATC and the landing B747-400 crew, taxiing the wrong way up J7. They realise their mistake when the red stop bars come into view in the thick fog. Luckily they overt a serious runway incursion by managing to pull up before them just as the B747 crew exit on J7 with a mid point RVR of 150m. The outcome unfortunately is self-explanatory.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You all forgot:
Harmony is the basis for collective prosperity;
Perseverance is the rule to sturdy progress;
Careful recipe is the best medicine to health;
Forgiveness is most needed in dispute;
Kindliness to youth endows the superior with virtue;
Diligence leads research to accession of knowledge;
Sincerity is the fundamental in daily life;
Modesty is the best policy in human relationship;
Preparation avoids needles drudgery;
Prudence remains essential in conducting business.
Tsk tsk tsk..
Harmony is the basis for collective prosperity;
Perseverance is the rule to sturdy progress;
Careful recipe is the best medicine to health;
Forgiveness is most needed in dispute;
Kindliness to youth endows the superior with virtue;
Diligence leads research to accession of knowledge;
Sincerity is the fundamental in daily life;
Modesty is the best policy in human relationship;
Preparation avoids needles drudgery;
Prudence remains essential in conducting business.
Tsk tsk tsk..
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cut the crap, mass debator, are you telling me the fact you burned your bridges at HKA had nothing to do with your venting? Would you be praying for our end if you were never employed by us? Be honest. I'm all for pointing out serious dangers, but something tells me it's not that simple for you.
Now I'm not denying some of our pilots, are shall we say, not confidence inducing. And you are correct to point out the flaws which our management has so far turned a blind eye to. But bearing grudges isn't a very healthy emotion. Life isn't a bed of roses. If you despise our management so much, you can sue their asses, (heck, I would'nt mind if you did).
404 Titan-If what you are implying is true, damn.....
Now I'm not denying some of our pilots, are shall we say, not confidence inducing. And you are correct to point out the flaws which our management has so far turned a blind eye to. But bearing grudges isn't a very healthy emotion. Life isn't a bed of roses. If you despise our management so much, you can sue their asses, (heck, I would'nt mind if you did).
404 Titan-If what you are implying is true, damn.....