No upgrades for SO's!
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No upgrades for SO's!
As we await the new training plan 2010, word on the street is that very few upgrades are planned! This will push the time spent on a Second Officer salary to 4 - 4.5yrs at least. Can CX really expect to keep these officers content for this length of time? Especially when they should have been upgraded before the downturn and hiring of DEFO's. Loyalty from the ranks when other airlines start hiring again will be very thin on the ground!
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Solidarity is one way! I know the "association" is weak, but if more no's joined and we voted for new management, maybe we could move in a direction where the company will respect the group as a whole more.
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Well you cant complain. The company really did have a good argument at the labor tribunal; as SK stated, 'it's a safety issue, S/Os just dont have the experience to be upgraded, hence the DEFOs....blah blah blah'. Nothing to do with costs etc.
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As expected, the upgrade numbers are going to be worse than this year, so maybe 12 or 14 upgrades total!! All these 777's are going to be crewed with existing FO's and not the 3yr + SO's waiting in the ranks. Thank you Nick! See you in court again you 
!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!
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Well you cant complain. The company really did have a good argument at the labor tribunal; as SK stated, 'it's a safety issue, S/Os just dont have the experience to be upgraded, hence the DEFOs....blah blah blah'. Nothing to do with costs etc.
That's funny, seeing as though some of our SO's just as and in some cases are more experienced than the DEFO's we have hired.
AND worse, some DEFO disrespect SO that are more senior to those DEFO. hanging up hat, jacket, putting away Jepps Charts, summing up the minutes on FPLN, if you ask with some manner (please)... no SOs will say no.
Last edited by hekokimushi; 23rd Oct 2009 at 11:33.
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So I guess they will hire more DEFO. Trust me its cheaper to hire DEFO than upgrading SO, when they upgrade a SO its 2 training event, Training the SO to become a JFO than training someone else to replace the SO. But when they hire DEFO its just one Training event with bottom of scale in salary.
hanging up hat, jacket, putting away Jepps Charts, summing up the minutes on FPLN, if you ask with some manner (please)... no SOs will say no.
Next thing you will be telling me that you have to make their bed as well!
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True
With Oz and middle east mainly going 2 man crew under the new AFTLS there will be yet more perceived (by Management) surplus crew. 
2010 will be crewed from existing crew levels with the only additions being Cadet S/O's. I forgot to confirm with my source that they will be all for the 777, but I assume so. Zero DEFO or DESO are planned for next year.
There are 20 planned S/O to JF/O upgrades for 2010, all on the 777, in the words of a training manager "to keep the system ticking over".
There are some HKG 744 captain conversions to the Bus and also many HKG Bus F/O conversions to the 777 in addition to continuing North American based Captains and F/O's converting to the 777.
Recent optimism about Command and JF/O courses for 2010 has been basically scuppered by the Company planning for the new AFTLS crewing levels. Obviously this will affect movement throughout the system.
For anyone not in receipt of full bypass pay, then truly the next year will suck.
2010 will be crewed from existing crew levels with the only additions being Cadet S/O's. I forgot to confirm with my source that they will be all for the 777, but I assume so. Zero DEFO or DESO are planned for next year.
There are 20 planned S/O to JF/O upgrades for 2010, all on the 777, in the words of a training manager "to keep the system ticking over".
There are some HKG 744 captain conversions to the Bus and also many HKG Bus F/O conversions to the 777 in addition to continuing North American based Captains and F/O's converting to the 777.
Recent optimism about Command and JF/O courses for 2010 has been basically scuppered by the Company planning for the new AFTLS crewing levels. Obviously this will affect movement throughout the system.
For anyone not in receipt of full bypass pay, then truly the next year will suck.
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So uspilot I guess then the company had better start hiring DEC then? I mean to upgrade a FO to Capt is a 3 step training event. Train FO to Capt, train SO to replace FO, and then find and train someone to replace the SO. If I am to trust you, then DEC would cheaper for the company, and therefore in the best interest for all employees. 
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There are some HKG 744 captain conversions to the Bus and also many HKG Bus F/O conversions to the 777 in addition to continuing North American based Captains and F/O's converting to the 777.
If thats the case who will replace those N.America Cargo F/O's who will be converting to 777, would it be SO's and JFO who are Hong Kong Base or would they have new hire's to crew them, wouldn't that be a pay cut for SO's and JFO's to take that route.
If thats the case who will replace those N.America Cargo F/O's who will be converting to 777, would it be SO's and JFO who are Hong Kong Base or would they have new hire's to crew them, wouldn't that be a pay cut for SO's and JFO's to take that route.
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Guys I think you all missed understand what I was saying. First of all I am not DEFO at CX. I have been with EK for about 3 long years
. All I was trying to say was that’s what they will do to save a dollar. They can careless what’s fair, I know for a fact that CX has some very experience SO, but the company will hire DEFO because it’s cheaper, we do it all the time here at EK, we hire DEC because its cheaper for the company, I have work with DEC with zero time on type…but I don’t blame the DEC, they were offered a job and they took it, I blame the company for keep moving the goal post on us. I hope I was able to clear it up.
. All I was trying to say was that’s what they will do to save a dollar. They can careless what’s fair, I know for a fact that CX has some very experience SO, but the company will hire DEFO because it’s cheaper, we do it all the time here at EK, we hire DEC because its cheaper for the company, I have work with DEC with zero time on type…but I don’t blame the DEC, they were offered a job and they took it, I blame the company for keep moving the goal post on us. I hope I was able to clear it up.
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So what happens to SO pay if upgrades dont happen? I thought there were only 4 years of pay scales. After this are you just stuck at that rate or does Bypass start? Or is Bypass just a dream now?
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Bypass pay?
Well, most CoS 99 Second Officers are completely unsuitable since they haven't been assessed. And with no more upgrades needed, no more assessments. Hence no more suitability, and no more bypass pay. Year 4 pay scale indefinitely.
As for the CoS 08 Second Officers, bypass pay is automatically triggered when a DEFO or DEC bypasses you after you've done 3 years making bunks. Any bypassing before that doesn't count. But you could well see CoS08 SOs collecting bypass pay before Cos99s.
Truly beautiful system, isn't it? Creating a winning team for the future.
Well, most CoS 99 Second Officers are completely unsuitable since they haven't been assessed. And with no more upgrades needed, no more assessments. Hence no more suitability, and no more bypass pay. Year 4 pay scale indefinitely.
As for the CoS 08 Second Officers, bypass pay is automatically triggered when a DEFO or DEC bypasses you after you've done 3 years making bunks. Any bypassing before that doesn't count. But you could well see CoS08 SOs collecting bypass pay before Cos99s.
Truly beautiful system, isn't it? Creating a winning team for the future.
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Guys, just save your dollars for a deposit and make sure CX pays for your Hong Kong pad (if you have a housing allowance!), then get that free endorsement and the worlds yours oyster. Don't make the mistake of setting your heart on a CX career: the days of CX being an aspirational airline are coming to an end. If you focus on what you can get out of these people it will get you through, otherwise be prepared for many years of frustration.
