Pilots : Regarding VHHH J9 & J1 TO
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Pilots : Regarding VHHH J9 & J1 TO
Should Ground Control clear you to J9 (25L) or J1 (07R) for departure and should you really want the extra 99m that J10 or H1 affords, I request that you make said call to Ground and not to Tower as this decision falls within Ground's jurisdiction. I'm sorry to burden flight crew with this but maybe you will be able to get through to those who don't seem to understand the difference.
Any counter-argument supporting taxi to J9 or J1 is academic as flight crew who see the full length available will invariably ask for it and further, should Ground Control specifically require J9 or J1, then Ground can explain their reasons directly.
Any counter-argument supporting taxi to J9 or J1 is academic as flight crew who see the full length available will invariably ask for it and further, should Ground Control specifically require J9 or J1, then Ground can explain their reasons directly.
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I think that you are making to big of a deal out of it. I personally don't have a problem with ground control clearing me to J1 or J9, as long as it facilitates a more expeditious departure for either my aircraft or someone else. The aim of the game is to get everyone off the ground and into the air ASAP.
What the big deal if when you are approaching the Holding point and traffic is not a problem, the tower controller clearing you to a different Holding point. Happens is a lot of major airports around the world.
What the big deal if when you are approaching the Holding point and traffic is not a problem, the tower controller clearing you to a different Holding point. Happens is a lot of major airports around the world.
yeah really, having a slow day in the Tower?
If I'm on the GND Freq and I see that the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.
If I'm on the TWR Freq and I see the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.
Either way as I'm responsible for the safe operation of my Aircraft I will do/say as I see fit to accomplish said operation.
So, live with it.
Besides, you can ( and do ) say no.
What really annoys me is when you are sitting at the holding point waiting and ground insist you stay on his freq. In bad or marginal weather I should be listening to whats going on the TWR freq for such things as Wind checks, Windshear reports, Wx reports from departed aircraft etc etc. I can't hear any of that if I'm hearing CX 123 requesting pushback from bay E1.
Common Airmanship I would have thought.
And don't tell me I should listen on VHF2, this isn't Dhaka airspace!!
If I'm on the GND Freq and I see that the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.
If I'm on the TWR Freq and I see the full length is not blocked and might be available I WILL ask.
Either way as I'm responsible for the safe operation of my Aircraft I will do/say as I see fit to accomplish said operation.
So, live with it.
Besides, you can ( and do ) say no.
What really annoys me is when you are sitting at the holding point waiting and ground insist you stay on his freq. In bad or marginal weather I should be listening to whats going on the TWR freq for such things as Wind checks, Windshear reports, Wx reports from departed aircraft etc etc. I can't hear any of that if I'm hearing CX 123 requesting pushback from bay E1.
Common Airmanship I would have thought.
And don't tell me I should listen on VHF2, this isn't Dhaka airspace!!
Didn't know we were un-popular as a group?
They are Air Traffic SERVICES aren't they?
They are here to provide the end user ( us ) with a service.
If I see the need to ask for something then they should try and accomodate me within reason. Anytime and anywhere, that's their job.
So what if I ask on the TWR, if it's not available just say NO.
A waste of a thread if you ask me.
They are Air Traffic SERVICES aren't they?
They are here to provide the end user ( us ) with a service.
If I see the need to ask for something then they should try and accomodate me within reason. Anytime and anywhere, that's their job.
So what if I ask on the TWR, if it's not available just say NO.
A waste of a thread if you ask me.
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should you really want the extra 99m that J10 or H1 affords
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Dragon69, Respectfully,
From ACARS-
PACKS ON
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R J1 = CANNOT
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R H1 = CAN
99 meters in this case makes a BIG difference!
AFL
From ACARS-
PACKS ON
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R J1 = CANNOT
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R H1 = CAN
99 meters in this case makes a BIG difference!
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Good point AFL, I think my learned colleague should have said " in 90% of cases, " I think he forgot about the 2nd most gutless 4 engine jet in the world ( the 146 being the 1st, of course ). 
On the other hand, when you ask old mate if he wants the figures for J1/J9 in an A320, and he says " we will not be accepting J1/J9 !! " in a stern voice, well, private pilot comes to mind
On the other hand, when you ask old mate if he wants the figures for J1/J9 in an A320, and he says " we will not be accepting J1/J9 !! " in a stern voice, well, private pilot comes to mind
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what about calling CX or Dragon and the rest of the major HK companies and explaining how it works, and they can inform the crew. from my experience very few know that ground controls the J9/10 thing etc as apposed to the tower. If you understand it you can deal with it if you dont then your forever confused nobody's fault live and learn!
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Unfortunately, seems there are one or two obnoxious & arrogant tw.ts in the tower. While ago some prima donna cleared us (B747-4) for takeoff on 25L as a VERY heavy B747-4 started his rotate at the other end. I asked for a 1 minute delay, because, besides the obvious, it was a training flight (abinitio handling R/H), & was abruptly informed, that there was "NO SUCH THING" (his words, believe it or not), & that our in trail distance was sufficient. As we were light, elected to roll about 30 sec later anyway. Sent his supervisor an e-mail, with a detailed explanation about wing tip vortices, induced drag etc for his info. Nice reply received- from supervisor!!!!
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Thanks for the opinions and comments.
NA5HTG, I have in the past tried the official route but it was probably to trivial to take further.
D69 your point echoes the official line I have had come back at me but regardless, its human nature that you'll get crew who see the full length available and will want it. There's nothing wrong with both of these viewpoints and all I'm asking is : if flight crew want the full length then please ask Ground as they have jurisdiction ( and I appreciate that asking Ground is not always possible if you've been switched to Tower ).
I know this is not rocket science but Ground should clear traffic to J1 or J9 for one of three reasons, i) they specifically want you to go there or ii) they're a Ground god, take-off data is computed for J1 and J9 and everyone else is an idiot or iii) they've never given it a second thought. By soliciting your comments I'm trying to address the latter.
NA5HTG, I have in the past tried the official route but it was probably to trivial to take further.
D69 your point echoes the official line I have had come back at me but regardless, its human nature that you'll get crew who see the full length available and will want it. There's nothing wrong with both of these viewpoints and all I'm asking is : if flight crew want the full length then please ask Ground as they have jurisdiction ( and I appreciate that asking Ground is not always possible if you've been switched to Tower ).
I know this is not rocket science but Ground should clear traffic to J1 or J9 for one of three reasons, i) they specifically want you to go there or ii) they're a Ground god, take-off data is computed for J1 and J9 and everyone else is an idiot or iii) they've never given it a second thought. By soliciting your comments I'm trying to address the latter.
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Jeez...A whole thread for a simple question..Or so would one think !? I know, it's the "cathay way" to discuss things ad nauseam. Well here is my share of ..."it"...
I believe that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and therefore I try to keep things as simple as possible (but not simpler).
It is just a matter of communication. ATC has no idea what our weight or performance on a given day is. Sure there are those controllers, that have been around for a while and understand the difference of a B744 going to TPE vs going to SFO. Unfortunately, ATC faces the same problem as the rest of aviation....the declining conditions fail to attract talent.
As talent is gradually replaced by some type of robotic buerocracy, we will face more and more issues of this nature.
So if I need the whole length of any runway, I just advise the ground upon taxy request or otherwise as soon as possible.
That way they can squeeze us in a sequence and by the time we get to the RWY there are no or minimal delays..
Worked so far.....
I believe that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and therefore I try to keep things as simple as possible (but not simpler).
It is just a matter of communication. ATC has no idea what our weight or performance on a given day is. Sure there are those controllers, that have been around for a while and understand the difference of a B744 going to TPE vs going to SFO. Unfortunately, ATC faces the same problem as the rest of aviation....the declining conditions fail to attract talent.
As talent is gradually replaced by some type of robotic buerocracy, we will face more and more issues of this nature.
So if I need the whole length of any runway, I just advise the ground upon taxy request or otherwise as soon as possible.
That way they can squeeze us in a sequence and by the time we get to the RWY there are no or minimal delays..
Worked so far.....
Last edited by Avius; 7th Sep 2009 at 16:30.
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"ATC faces the same problem as the rest of aviation....the declining conditions fail to attract talent."
Our beloved Brother 4 would strongly disagree with you in-sight. He has personally hand pick the most talented student controllers. All the pilots' grievances on HK ATC will be fully addressed in the coming years.
Our beloved Brother 4 would strongly disagree with you in-sight. He has personally hand pick the most talented student controllers. All the pilots' grievances on HK ATC will be fully addressed in the coming years.
BusyB..........1/ The 777 doesn't have "body gear" and 2/ the back wheel pairs on the 777 are steerable, so no problems in tight turns. That is not an excuse.
There's an old saying in Aviation...
3 things that are useless to a Pilot:
1/ The fuel in the tank back at the airport
2/ The sky above you
3/ The runway behind you.
If you have the practical opportunity to make use of all the runway HKIA built then why not?
There's an old saying in Aviation...
3 things that are useless to a Pilot:
1/ The fuel in the tank back at the airport
2/ The sky above you
3/ The runway behind you.
If you have the practical opportunity to make use of all the runway HKIA built then why not?
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Personally, in spite of type, wake turb category, hair driers for engines, colour on the tail etc, how many wheels can steer, H1, J10 is 99 mts less swimming to do should your magic machine decide to go surfing off the end of the runway .
MR, thanks for letting us know who has the controlling function, I was of the mistaken belief it was Tower.
MR, thanks for letting us know who has the controlling function, I was of the mistaken belief it was Tower.