China ATS delays
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China ATS delays
Quick question for those in the know...
After travelling in China recently I was perplexed by the seemingly common problem of having all the passengers boarded, to be told of an ATC delay of three hours or so due to airspace/weather etc. Everywhere else in the world has either an ATS that could cope, or would hold boarding until such time that the problem cleared. Singapore is the only other place I know of that imposes ridiculous delays on departures, and that is only due to traffic sequencing over the Bay of Bengal.
So, why is China so different?
After travelling in China recently I was perplexed by the seemingly common problem of having all the passengers boarded, to be told of an ATC delay of three hours or so due to airspace/weather etc. Everywhere else in the world has either an ATS that could cope, or would hold boarding until such time that the problem cleared. Singapore is the only other place I know of that imposes ridiculous delays on departures, and that is only due to traffic sequencing over the Bay of Bengal.
So, why is China so different?
Hi Lancer, from his/her profile I see that “cxa340so” has formulated a stereotypical opinion from the jump seat of an A340. Let me give what I hope is a more balanced opinion from someone who has been operating into China since 1991 on an almost daily basis…
I feel China ATC have done quite well considering their circumstances. Consider Beijing to use the example given. When you stand anywhere on Beijing airport, almost every man made structure you see did not exist 15 years ago, with the exception of the original terminal with its 2 satellite piers over on the western side. The road to the airport from the city was the little 2-lane road to the east that you can glimpse from the airport freeway. This gives an indication of how circumstances in aviation in China have changed in the last 15 years.
The situation with Air Traffic Control is similar. 15 years ago only Beijing and Shanghai used basic radar for controlling arrivals. En-route control was procedural, using position reports. Approach control to most airports was also done procedurally and on a common frequency (130.0), which made for very, very congested radio frequencies. Terminal control radar, ATIS, STAR’s, SID’s etc did not exist or where not available for use. The standard of English for controllers, engineers, ground staff etc was marginal. Most airports were joint civil/military so it was not unusual to be slotted between MIG’s for your non-precision approach to land. I am not telling war stories here, just saying how it was - you have to know where China has come from to understand where it is now.
What a change 15 years makes! China has modern aviation infrastructure and ATC equipment that puts most so-called “first world” countries to shame. In that time there has been a huge increase in air traffic density. I defy anyone to suggest any other country that could have pulled it off in that time. I point out the Heathrow Terminal 5 or Sydney second airport sagas as counter examples.
That is not to say there are not problems, as the delays out of Shanghai you experienced demonstrate. Most air traffic from South East Asia to ports in Eastern China is sent on a single, bidirectional airway up the east coast. There are only so many aircraft that can physically fit into this “pipeline” at any one time. So there will inevitably be delays, particularly if there are military exercises or the forces are put on a higher alert status. Scarce airspace will then be taken away for military use (often at very short notice).
So why not put in another airway? That is coming, but it takes time. There are many military bases scattered along this stretch of coast and much of the airspace is “owned” by the military so it takes time to wrest control of airspace for civil use. More airways cannot be added to the east of the coast for obvious political reasons, but that that will change. There are similar problems all over the country.
Regarding boarding and then being delayed – the pilots may know that delays are being incurred but probably not for how long. You will find that ATC themselves have no idea when airspace is to be closed or reopened. I have had company aircraft ahead of me incur a 2 hour delay while I had only 10 minutes. I have been given a 2 hour delay and then cleared to push after 20 minutes. In my experience it is better to have everyone on board so as to be ready to go when things start moving again. In ports where there is a shortage of parking space such as Hangzhou, you may be required to board passengers and be towed elsewhere as the aerobridge is needed for arrivals.
I hope this goes some way to explaining your delays. The problems are related to a huge increase in aviation infrastructure and air traffic in a relatively short time, along with an airspace system dominated by the needs of the military. The accusations by “cxa340so” of “incompetence, poor training and lack of communication” are unfair and poorly thought out. China is just scrambling to catch up with a massive growth spurt and considering where they have come from I think they are not doing a bad job in the circumstances.
I feel China ATC have done quite well considering their circumstances. Consider Beijing to use the example given. When you stand anywhere on Beijing airport, almost every man made structure you see did not exist 15 years ago, with the exception of the original terminal with its 2 satellite piers over on the western side. The road to the airport from the city was the little 2-lane road to the east that you can glimpse from the airport freeway. This gives an indication of how circumstances in aviation in China have changed in the last 15 years.
The situation with Air Traffic Control is similar. 15 years ago only Beijing and Shanghai used basic radar for controlling arrivals. En-route control was procedural, using position reports. Approach control to most airports was also done procedurally and on a common frequency (130.0), which made for very, very congested radio frequencies. Terminal control radar, ATIS, STAR’s, SID’s etc did not exist or where not available for use. The standard of English for controllers, engineers, ground staff etc was marginal. Most airports were joint civil/military so it was not unusual to be slotted between MIG’s for your non-precision approach to land. I am not telling war stories here, just saying how it was - you have to know where China has come from to understand where it is now.
What a change 15 years makes! China has modern aviation infrastructure and ATC equipment that puts most so-called “first world” countries to shame. In that time there has been a huge increase in air traffic density. I defy anyone to suggest any other country that could have pulled it off in that time. I point out the Heathrow Terminal 5 or Sydney second airport sagas as counter examples.
That is not to say there are not problems, as the delays out of Shanghai you experienced demonstrate. Most air traffic from South East Asia to ports in Eastern China is sent on a single, bidirectional airway up the east coast. There are only so many aircraft that can physically fit into this “pipeline” at any one time. So there will inevitably be delays, particularly if there are military exercises or the forces are put on a higher alert status. Scarce airspace will then be taken away for military use (often at very short notice).
So why not put in another airway? That is coming, but it takes time. There are many military bases scattered along this stretch of coast and much of the airspace is “owned” by the military so it takes time to wrest control of airspace for civil use. More airways cannot be added to the east of the coast for obvious political reasons, but that that will change. There are similar problems all over the country.
Regarding boarding and then being delayed – the pilots may know that delays are being incurred but probably not for how long. You will find that ATC themselves have no idea when airspace is to be closed or reopened. I have had company aircraft ahead of me incur a 2 hour delay while I had only 10 minutes. I have been given a 2 hour delay and then cleared to push after 20 minutes. In my experience it is better to have everyone on board so as to be ready to go when things start moving again. In ports where there is a shortage of parking space such as Hangzhou, you may be required to board passengers and be towed elsewhere as the aerobridge is needed for arrivals.
I hope this goes some way to explaining your delays. The problems are related to a huge increase in aviation infrastructure and air traffic in a relatively short time, along with an airspace system dominated by the needs of the military. The accusations by “cxa340so” of “incompetence, poor training and lack of communication” are unfair and poorly thought out. China is just scrambling to catch up with a massive growth spurt and considering where they have come from I think they are not doing a bad job in the circumstances.
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Having operated in and out of China since the late 80's, I would have answered the first post with a simple explanation of:
INCOMPETANT
INTRANSIGENT
& INEFFICIENT
However, I then read the comment from cxa340so and thought - how very very true!
I subsequently read midnights very thorough view from the other side, and with his well balanced description, I could not fail to agree with his extremely well put points. You must be sir, IMHO, a contender for sainthood and must possess patience beyond the norm. A genuine hats off, perhaps I should take some lessons.
Unfortunately, I am unable to put up with such consistant cr@p from their ATC without feeling obliged to frequently point out the error of their ways, or, offer alternative courses of action. Futile gestures I know, I concede they normally change nothing, other than to let them know, that I know, they really aren't very good. I know they are hampered by lateral blinkers and government/military restrictions, but really, how hard is it?
Admittedly, their rate of improvement is quantum, but when you have started from as low a position as you can get, their current standards, or lack thereof, still leaves them an awfully long way to go.
As a somewhat facetious example, it never fails to give me a laugh watching the face of the other pilot on his first flight to ZXXX, when having overcome all the arrival obstacles as so truly pointed out by a340so, we have beaten their obstructive plans to prevent us landing, that we now taxi around the airport, are 100 metres from our parking bay (which is now in full sight), and what are we are given? .....yes - a "follow me" car for the last 50m to the bay. The incredulous look on the other guys face, that just says "WTF!" is so priceless, it makes my day just a little less onerous than it otherwise would be. Gotta get your laughs where you can these days
.
If anyone does actually know the real reason, I'd be interested to know, as it sure as hell isn't to stop us from getting lost in that last 50m, even the Chinese arent that stupid.
I stand by my view of them being Incompetant, Inefficient, Intransigent and lacking almost all of the lateral thought processes that most ATC systems in the world have had to have to endure and overcome their own quite significant problems.
Overall, they come under the heading of "Could do better".
But will they? - in the near future, I very much doubt it.
To all who are required to foray into such no-mans land, fingers crossed and good luck to you all.
INCOMPETANT
INTRANSIGENT
& INEFFICIENT
However, I then read the comment from cxa340so and thought - how very very true!
I subsequently read midnights very thorough view from the other side, and with his well balanced description, I could not fail to agree with his extremely well put points. You must be sir, IMHO, a contender for sainthood and must possess patience beyond the norm. A genuine hats off, perhaps I should take some lessons.
Unfortunately, I am unable to put up with such consistant cr@p from their ATC without feeling obliged to frequently point out the error of their ways, or, offer alternative courses of action. Futile gestures I know, I concede they normally change nothing, other than to let them know, that I know, they really aren't very good. I know they are hampered by lateral blinkers and government/military restrictions, but really, how hard is it?
Admittedly, their rate of improvement is quantum, but when you have started from as low a position as you can get, their current standards, or lack thereof, still leaves them an awfully long way to go.
As a somewhat facetious example, it never fails to give me a laugh watching the face of the other pilot on his first flight to ZXXX, when having overcome all the arrival obstacles as so truly pointed out by a340so, we have beaten their obstructive plans to prevent us landing, that we now taxi around the airport, are 100 metres from our parking bay (which is now in full sight), and what are we are given? .....yes - a "follow me" car for the last 50m to the bay. The incredulous look on the other guys face, that just says "WTF!" is so priceless, it makes my day just a little less onerous than it otherwise would be. Gotta get your laughs where you can these days
.If anyone does actually know the real reason, I'd be interested to know, as it sure as hell isn't to stop us from getting lost in that last 50m, even the Chinese arent that stupid.
I stand by my view of them being Incompetant, Inefficient, Intransigent and lacking almost all of the lateral thought processes that most ATC systems in the world have had to have to endure and overcome their own quite significant problems.
Overall, they come under the heading of "Could do better".
But will they? - in the near future, I very much doubt it.
To all who are required to foray into such no-mans land, fingers crossed and good luck to you all.
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At the danger of being branded racist, please consider the following:
I've visited SE Asia for some time now and most of the complaints I find are concerned with a change in mental attitude that, once understood, explain most of the scenarios listed above. Your average Chinese citizen is encouraged from birth to be a compliant team member - everything else stems from there. I call it, "The Ant Farm." Examples are many, from posthumously criticising a suicidee for being selfish in taking his own life, to the collective praise dished out by senior management, using word like team and family. Just look at the Chinese horoscopes compared to western (?) ones. The latter is mostly concerned with love, money and change management; the former is invariably linked to status and relationships at work, especially with this "Boss" person.
To take a rather fatuous extreme example to illustrate my point further, imagine a garage mechanic who is qualified on front left car wheels. This is excellent if you have a problem with your car's left front wheel, but what if it's the right front wheel? Can the mechanic extrapolate from left to right, or might he get into trouble, fear he may lose his job and income if he steps over the line and guesses?
The problem comes when flexible, individual decision making is required. A recent newspaper article stated China's concern at management trainees who were assessed in 5 areas. Consistent failings were found in 2 areas: creativity and initiative, or ability to think outside the box and take responsibility. A good example of this is when you have a problem, say, with another hotel guest who insists on having his TV volume up high at 4 in the morning. Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem. HK has one of if not the best public transport systems in the world but I would hate to be physically disabled trying to get from A to B.
Now, to thread: I think we're all agreed that ATC is one of those professions that demands both creativity and initiative...
I think I've said enough.
BB
I've visited SE Asia for some time now and most of the complaints I find are concerned with a change in mental attitude that, once understood, explain most of the scenarios listed above. Your average Chinese citizen is encouraged from birth to be a compliant team member - everything else stems from there. I call it, "The Ant Farm." Examples are many, from posthumously criticising a suicidee for being selfish in taking his own life, to the collective praise dished out by senior management, using word like team and family. Just look at the Chinese horoscopes compared to western (?) ones. The latter is mostly concerned with love, money and change management; the former is invariably linked to status and relationships at work, especially with this "Boss" person.
To take a rather fatuous extreme example to illustrate my point further, imagine a garage mechanic who is qualified on front left car wheels. This is excellent if you have a problem with your car's left front wheel, but what if it's the right front wheel? Can the mechanic extrapolate from left to right, or might he get into trouble, fear he may lose his job and income if he steps over the line and guesses?
The problem comes when flexible, individual decision making is required. A recent newspaper article stated China's concern at management trainees who were assessed in 5 areas. Consistent failings were found in 2 areas: creativity and initiative, or ability to think outside the box and take responsibility. A good example of this is when you have a problem, say, with another hotel guest who insists on having his TV volume up high at 4 in the morning. Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem. HK has one of if not the best public transport systems in the world but I would hate to be physically disabled trying to get from A to B.
Now, to thread: I think we're all agreed that ATC is one of those professions that demands both creativity and initiative...
I think I've said enough.
BB
If anyone does actually know the real reason, I'd be interested to know, as it sure as hell isn't to stop us from getting lost in that last 50m, even the Chinese arent that stupid.
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Certainly there's a cultural difference between Western and Asian thinking, but there are plenty of other countries in Asia that don't have the same issues with traffic management that China does.
The flip side of Western 'creativity and innovation' can be experienced if you're a foreigner flying into the United States -- with their own version of 'English' and radio procedures.
The flip side of Western 'creativity and innovation' can be experienced if you're a foreigner flying into the United States -- with their own version of 'English' and radio procedures.
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A part of the reason for the ATC delays (at least for en-route clearances) is because there are a lot of airways that are designated only for domestic flights which are not released for International traffic. These other airways are NOT depicted in the Jepessen charts, so you can be forgiven for assuming (incorrectly) that areas which appear to be open unused airspace should be empty when in fact they are full of domestic traffic. If you can, get a hold of the domestic airways charts from a local Chinese domestic carrier, and you'll see what i mean.
There are at least twice the number of airways within the country than would appear on the Jep charts.
PS - They're not all as daft as some make them out to be. In fact, some of them use this "duality" to their advantage. On more than one occasion, i've caught them descending a foreign flight only to assign his original flight level to a domestic guy. And since the coms was in Chinese to the domestic guy & English to the foreign traffic, the guy never even caught on that a number had been done on him...!
There are at least twice the number of airways within the country than would appear on the Jep charts.
PS - They're not all as daft as some make them out to be. In fact, some of them use this "duality" to their advantage. On more than one occasion, i've caught them descending a foreign flight only to assign his original flight level to a domestic guy. And since the coms was in Chinese to the domestic guy & English to the foreign traffic, the guy never even caught on that a number had been done on him...!
Last edited by gengis; 13th Jul 2009 at 17:19.
Yes, there is a reason for the “follow me” vehicle. I assume you are talking about Pudong. It is because the section of apron where you park cannot be seen from the tower. I guess when an apron control tower is built on the eastern side of airport then some pilots will cease to be “incredulous” at the sight…
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The media's recent airline industry focus recounts what are now all-
too-familiar stories of congestion, rolling delays, air rage and strained
customer relations. Perhaps most disturbing, from the standpoint of
solving any of these problems, the media also report the industry's
penchant for laying blame elsewhere. While environmental and external
influences undoubtedly contribute to a lag in air traffic control
capacity growth, the airline industry has itself to blame for the majority of
today's "system" delays and resulting passenger anxiety and backlash.
Boiled down to basics, the media focus offers vignettes on the
extent to which post-deregulation airline industry profit optimization has
consistently hammered customer comfort, business consumers' wallets and
employee motivation, in the hopes of engorging option holders' (e.g.
executives') paper wealth.
To be sure, airline deregulation and the optimization it enabled
has offered leisure customers bargains and business customers network
growth, to and from hubs. The high price of this change, however, has been an
increase in customer and employee anxiety from higher load factors,
compounded by reduced aircraft size and related service demands, the
commoditization of coach service and substantial real-dollar air fare
increases for business consumers.
Add to this continuing job insecurity among many front-line
employees, due to more than a decade of outsourcing, downsizing and,
more recently, domestic and international code-sharing and alliance-related concerns. Not that CAAis faultless. Sure, it's embarrassing in 2009 to see
vacuum tube failures strangle the ATC system. Greater airports would be
nice to have, as well. But let's face it, the congestion problem is
largely of the industry's own making, the result of a consistent
strategic push outside the capacity envelope.
too-familiar stories of congestion, rolling delays, air rage and strained
customer relations. Perhaps most disturbing, from the standpoint of
solving any of these problems, the media also report the industry's
penchant for laying blame elsewhere. While environmental and external
influences undoubtedly contribute to a lag in air traffic control
capacity growth, the airline industry has itself to blame for the majority of
today's "system" delays and resulting passenger anxiety and backlash.
Boiled down to basics, the media focus offers vignettes on the
extent to which post-deregulation airline industry profit optimization has
consistently hammered customer comfort, business consumers' wallets and
employee motivation, in the hopes of engorging option holders' (e.g.
executives') paper wealth.
To be sure, airline deregulation and the optimization it enabled
has offered leisure customers bargains and business customers network
growth, to and from hubs. The high price of this change, however, has been an
increase in customer and employee anxiety from higher load factors,
compounded by reduced aircraft size and related service demands, the
commoditization of coach service and substantial real-dollar air fare
increases for business consumers.
Add to this continuing job insecurity among many front-line
employees, due to more than a decade of outsourcing, downsizing and,
more recently, domestic and international code-sharing and alliance-related concerns. Not that CAAis faultless. Sure, it's embarrassing in 2009 to see
vacuum tube failures strangle the ATC system. Greater airports would be
nice to have, as well. But let's face it, the congestion problem is
largely of the industry's own making, the result of a consistent
strategic push outside the capacity envelope.
Yes, Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG 17 copy for twenty minutes and half the country's commercial airspace shuts down.
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I guess my rose coloured " they're doing the best they can " glasses got thrown out the nav bag when we watched a local chinese carrier ( bound for HK, same as us ) sceduled departure time 10 mins after ours, push back before our departure time after we were told " delay undetermined " ( a favourite with Chinese ATC ) , when asked why, the 2nd most favourite reply " Flow control ". I would be much happier if they told the truth and said " gweilo delay control ".
That and being told by numerous Chinese Captains that it is not unusual for ATC to ask if anyone would like to depart before us, after we have asked for a pushback.
Yes, I know, rumours, conspiracy theory etc, its probably just the Chinese guys I've spoken to trying to make their own race look bad....hang on, what the
Of course, unless you are fluent in Putonghua, you would never know how often this happens.
My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess where all the local carriers want to be ? and guess where we end up
That and being told by numerous Chinese Captains that it is not unusual for ATC to ask if anyone would like to depart before us, after we have asked for a pushback.
Yes, I know, rumours, conspiracy theory etc, its probably just the Chinese guys I've spoken to trying to make their own race look bad....hang on, what the
Of course, unless you are fluent in Putonghua, you would never know how often this happens.
My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess where all the local carriers want to be ? and guess where we end up
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Well thought out and constructive 2nd post Dernier, maybe you could come up with some actual facts that prove a340 is a loser, and not telling how it is, albeit bluntly.
Good luck with that
Good luck with that
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Wow!
So much to say.
cxa340so, I teach at an university here. Every semester, I get my schedule and textbooks on the eve of my first class. A summer or two ago, a Kiwi colleague booked his ticket through our boss, who was also arranging his visa renewals. That boss handed him his ticket and passport with updated visas no earlier than 2130LT on the eve of his departure. That's China: you wait till all of the jigsaw puzzle pieces are in optimal position before you wiggle the last few into place so you can commit and get it right on your first try. Obviously, this wracks nerves and requires a 24/7 standby mindset backed up by a laidback attitude.
cxa340so, the locally trendy term for that is Shanzhai: it's about learning through imitation until you reach proficiency sufficient to give you scope for personal creativity. Shanzhai is how you got out of 4WD and learned to walk on two feet. It's how you learned the alphabet before moving on to prose and poetry of your own. In the 1960s, we were trashing Japs for that. We thought they all were all look-alikes too. It passed.
Midnight Oil, I subscribe entirely to your contribution. I am domestic SLF several times a year and all I could complain of was the pickled vegetables in the breakfast trays. I've since surrendered in and now eat them without sulking.
mephisto88, the Chinese are not lateral thinkers, they are quantum thinkers: We'll catch up eventually. After all, since Bohr and Heisenberg, we have been graced with Francesco Varela's quantum biology. IT now has quantum processing, I hear.
Buttiebox, determining who is the source of the problem is subjective.
And this too is quantic: the attitude is that, if you change the position of a single piece on the chessboard, you are changing the whole game, so you think twice and thrice before acting. This is a family-oriented society. Some 3,000 (arguably 5,000 or 8,000) years of history's civil wars, droughts, floods, earthquakes and whatever have drilled it into their DNA that when the schlitz hits the fan, the only people who will go to the wall to save all four of your cheeks are family, friends and "connections". Western "rugged individualism" strikes them as falling somewhere between childish ego fixation and utter lunacy.
On your other issue, well, your turn of phrase shows you're learning. You're expected to be able to know how to suck it in after age 4 or so. On the other hand, everybody foreign and native alike has their quirks, so the first line of approach is to settle directly with the whiner. Complaining about noise in China is like complaining about paid parking in Manhattan or the scent of apple pie in front of the Lincoln Memorial. The nice part is that here they don't make you feel weird about you and your pet problem.
Yes, Lancer, everything has a flipside or two. There are culture bumps wherever you go.
Captain Dart, I guess you mean the licence-built version of the MiG-17 known as the Shenyang Jianji 5 "Fresco": the last was retired in 1995 (Source: Peoples Liberation Army Air Force).
There are however some 500 J-7 Fishbeds (MiG-21) in service (ibid.).
Since then the native-built if Lavi-like J-10 and Sukhoi 27 Flanker buzz around here and there every other now and then.
China is 5,026 km wide E/W and somewhat less N/S (Geography of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) : the Flanker's combat radius is 1,340 km but heck, let's make it 3,530 at altitude instead of measly sea level (Combat radius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). So yes, that's about "half" the country. More if you throw in external fuel tanks perhaps. Not sure if there are any real mission profiles for that -- my guess is they find fuel capacity more useful as loitering time, but 3,530 is 3,530. Loitering time would exceed 20 minutes though.
Given the array of US troops and materiel in the region, the Central Military Commission has deployed its people and widgets for optimum response to massive incursions from the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan, so the Beijing and the Eastern seaboard is where airline captains are most likely to feel occasionally unwelcome and get upset.
If you like the 17 however, I know where you can see one parked as a kiddie display right next to the Yellow River. It has a cool radome too. However, there is a stunning airforce museum about 60km north of Beijing that used to be an air defence base. The exhibition area starts out as a semi-circular tunnel dug into solid mountainside. Featured aircraft include a B-29 clone called the Tupolev 4 fitted out with an AWACS radome.
Hongkongfooey, it won't happen. I like straight answers too but forget it. These folks would walk miles in 50°C sunshine to avoid embarrassing anyone including themselves. And you.
The other piece of essential Survival Chinese is guanxi: mutual backscratching or, more technically, it's social capital. Get to know the ATCs. Drink with them (you folks still have oxygen cylinders in the cockpit and they still leak, right?). Read up on nepotism too: contrary to popular myth, there is a stack of Western sociological studies that show it is both socially and economically efficient. The locals here have known that for several millennia and have an operating manual all their own for "invisible hand of the market".
Hope this helps.
Have a great day.
Beijing airport...find it difficult to give you arrival procedure before 1 minute at the arrival fix,(or you are given an arrival procedure and...a totally different arrival going in the total opposite direction!!) they can not advise your runway until your on the approach, and then they will change your runway up to 4 times.
The first thing you learn after moving to Asia, is that Chinese can not do anything right, besides copy expensive brands...
Midnight Oil, I subscribe entirely to your contribution. I am domestic SLF several times a year and all I could complain of was the pickled vegetables in the breakfast trays. I've since surrendered in and now eat them without sulking.
...IncompetEnt, Inefficient, Intransigent and lacking almost all of the lateral thought processes that most ATC systems...have to endure and overcome their own quite significant problems.
The problem comes when flexible, individual decision making is required...
Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem.
Rather than confront the miscreant, you will be offered a change of room. In their minds, you don't have a problem, you are the problem and if you go away so does the problem.
And this too is quantic: the attitude is that, if you change the position of a single piece on the chessboard, you are changing the whole game, so you think twice and thrice before acting. This is a family-oriented society. Some 3,000 (arguably 5,000 or 8,000) years of history's civil wars, droughts, floods, earthquakes and whatever have drilled it into their DNA that when the schlitz hits the fan, the only people who will go to the wall to save all four of your cheeks are family, friends and "connections". Western "rugged individualism" strikes them as falling somewhere between childish ego fixation and utter lunacy.
On your other issue, well, your turn of phrase shows you're learning. You're expected to be able to know how to suck it in after age 4 or so. On the other hand, everybody foreign and native alike has their quirks, so the first line of approach is to settle directly with the whiner. Complaining about noise in China is like complaining about paid parking in Manhattan or the scent of apple pie in front of the Lincoln Memorial. The nice part is that here they don't make you feel weird about you and your pet problem.
Yes, Lancer, everything has a flipside or two. There are culture bumps wherever you go.
.Yes, Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG 17 copy for twenty minutes and half the country's commercial airspace shuts down.
There are however some 500 J-7 Fishbeds (MiG-21) in service (ibid.).
Since then the native-built if Lavi-like J-10 and Sukhoi 27 Flanker buzz around here and there every other now and then.
China is 5,026 km wide E/W and somewhat less N/S (Geography of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) : the Flanker's combat radius is 1,340 km but heck, let's make it 3,530 at altitude instead of measly sea level (Combat radius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). So yes, that's about "half" the country. More if you throw in external fuel tanks perhaps. Not sure if there are any real mission profiles for that -- my guess is they find fuel capacity more useful as loitering time, but 3,530 is 3,530. Loitering time would exceed 20 minutes though.
Given the array of US troops and materiel in the region, the Central Military Commission has deployed its people and widgets for optimum response to massive incursions from the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan, so the Beijing and the Eastern seaboard is where airline captains are most likely to feel occasionally unwelcome and get upset.
If you like the 17 however, I know where you can see one parked as a kiddie display right next to the Yellow River. It has a cool radome too. However, there is a stunning airforce museum about 60km north of Beijing that used to be an air defence base. The exhibition area starts out as a semi-circular tunnel dug into solid mountainside. Featured aircraft include a B-29 clone called the Tupolev 4 fitted out with an AWACS radome.
I would be much happier if they told the truth and said "gweilo delay control".
My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess...where we end up
My other favourite is how we ( mostly ) fly around 6-10,000 below optimum levels until there is bad turbulence and then guess...where we end up
The other piece of essential Survival Chinese is guanxi: mutual backscratching or, more technically, it's social capital. Get to know the ATCs. Drink with them (you folks still have oxygen cylinders in the cockpit and they still leak, right?). Read up on nepotism too: contrary to popular myth, there is a stack of Western sociological studies that show it is both socially and economically efficient. The locals here have known that for several millennia and have an operating manual all their own for "invisible hand of the market".
Hope this helps.
Have a great day.
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Typical Chinese ATC clearance: "delay undetermined due flow control". If there was any flow control you would get a departure slot or ETD.
"you wait till all of the jigsaw puzzle pieces are in optimal position before you wiggle the last few into place so you can commit and get it right on your first try"
Very good Arthur but while they are wiggling their pieces we are burning gas at the rate of about 50-100 kgs per minute!
Being stuck 6000-10000ft below optimum level together with the approach controllers obvious confusion as you enter their airspace, cost airlines between 500-1000kg of gas per arrival.
Beijing was ranked 21st busiest airport by movements last year so it is not that busy. I suggest they sent their controllers to the States and Europe for a couple of years and maybe then they would do a better job copying them than most other things they copy.
First rule to fixing a problem you must admit you have one. Unfortunately the Chinese are incapable of that, so don't expect any improvements in the near future.
Arthur, keep smoking what you are smoking and maybe join a teachers' forum.
This is a Forum for AVIATION PROFESSIONALS as the banner at the top clearly states.
"you wait till all of the jigsaw puzzle pieces are in optimal position before you wiggle the last few into place so you can commit and get it right on your first try"
Very good Arthur but while they are wiggling their pieces we are burning gas at the rate of about 50-100 kgs per minute!
Being stuck 6000-10000ft below optimum level together with the approach controllers obvious confusion as you enter their airspace, cost airlines between 500-1000kg of gas per arrival.
Beijing was ranked 21st busiest airport by movements last year so it is not that busy. I suggest they sent their controllers to the States and Europe for a couple of years and maybe then they would do a better job copying them than most other things they copy.
First rule to fixing a problem you must admit you have one. Unfortunately the Chinese are incapable of that, so don't expect any improvements in the near future.
Arthur, keep smoking what you are smoking and maybe join a teachers' forum.
This is a Forum for AVIATION PROFESSIONALS as the banner at the top clearly states.
Arthur, I 'dips me lid' in respect for your thorough posting, especially in response to my tongue-in-cheek comment! I have visited the air museum near Beijing and am familiar with the Shenyang.