Why a vote on COS08 improvements?
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Why a vote on COS08 improvements?
Can someone answer me why we are voting on improvements to the COS08?
I don't understand, why do they want a collective vote on COS08 improvements when accepting the COS08 is still an individual choice? I just can't find the angle on this. If they are improvements, then why not just make them part of the COS08?
If we vote no, then obviously they don't become part of the COS08 choice. Why would we do that? Why is this even a choice?
It seems like the AoA has failed of clarifying this point, they just propose it to a vote, so it doesn't make any sense. I will be voting no until I figure this one out.
I don't understand, why do they want a collective vote on COS08 improvements when accepting the COS08 is still an individual choice? I just can't find the angle on this. If they are improvements, then why not just make them part of the COS08?
If we vote no, then obviously they don't become part of the COS08 choice. Why would we do that? Why is this even a choice?
It seems like the AoA has failed of clarifying this point, they just propose it to a vote, so it doesn't make any sense. I will be voting no until I figure this one out.
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The company has always insisted on a 'vote' to attempt to legitimize their castration of the previous contract. It started with 'B' scales, and they're still doing it now.
So I don't understand why they would use this vote to single out people. Wouldn't they rather single out people based on wether they voted to accept COS08 or not?
Don't understand why we would vote on wether we want to make the deal better or not. It just doesn't make sense, and no-one seems to have an answer as to why this is even up for vote.
I still don't get it.
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This was made very clear at the meeting this afternoon. You're vote is requested to ratify the changes to Cos08. These changes are improvements to the current Cos08. Cos08 is not great but it is out there and it is available to those that choose to sign, so by voting "yes" you are improving what those officers get. If you don't want to BE on Cos08, Great-thats most of us at the meeting. Nonetheless, its an improvement on the contract thats out there so vote "yes". As for which Cos you accept, thats up to you and to be honest, there is nothing in Cos08 to entice most of us that aren't in our 50's.
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OK Airbus, I'm also voting no on COS08. Since COS08 is a degradation of my current COS99, even with the improvements, why would anyone that is voting no on COS08 vote for improvements to it?
I would rather let COS08 remain as crappy a deal as it is to make it less attractive. After all, if the majority of pilots are on COS08, then we will get into a scenario similar to the A scale versus B scale that we had over the years, where the A scale did not receive any improvements.
So I guess I'm voting no on the COS08 improvements. Those people that already made their decisions and accepted COS08 should have waited before signing a blank check.
I would rather let COS08 remain as crappy a deal as it is to make it less attractive. After all, if the majority of pilots are on COS08, then we will get into a scenario similar to the A scale versus B scale that we had over the years, where the A scale did not receive any improvements.
So I guess I'm voting no on the COS08 improvements. Those people that already made their decisions and accepted COS08 should have waited before signing a blank check.
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the last update from the AOA clarifies a lot of this.
there will be no discrimination for those of us who stay on Cos99, of course we don't have to believe that but the AOA will take CX to court in the future if we (cos99) are disadvantaged.
The vote the AOA wants you to take is only to ratify the improvements to Cos08. All new joiners are on Cos08, why would you not want them to have a better deal even though its still worse than ours, not very brotherly. This vote doesn't send a message to the company-your choice of Cos does. Don't chose Cos08. Don't even take SLS. That sends them a message. The AOA doesn't want you to take cos08, its a personal decision that works only for older b scale captains and some fraighter pilots. In fact, the more of us that stay on cos99, the better. But don't confuse the AOA vote with your election on crew direct.
there will be no discrimination for those of us who stay on Cos99, of course we don't have to believe that but the AOA will take CX to court in the future if we (cos99) are disadvantaged.
The vote the AOA wants you to take is only to ratify the improvements to Cos08. All new joiners are on Cos08, why would you not want them to have a better deal even though its still worse than ours, not very brotherly. This vote doesn't send a message to the company-your choice of Cos does. Don't chose Cos08. Don't even take SLS. That sends them a message. The AOA doesn't want you to take cos08, its a personal decision that works only for older b scale captains and some fraighter pilots. In fact, the more of us that stay on cos99, the better. But don't confuse the AOA vote with your election on crew direct.
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It's there because spineless pilots are allowing it to be there.
Now, what I don't get is why I should vote for or against improvements on a contract that I won't elect...?
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sqk7700, how is cos08 a degradation on your cos99?
The above statements are fact, they are undisputed. It is accepted by everyone at Cathay that introduction of lower conditions means the end of improvements to the higher conditions.
So voting yes to these COS08 improvements is like putting perfume on a turd. It might make it more appealing, but it is still a turd and I don't want more people on lower conditions if I can prevent it.
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So, as it stands at the moment, CoS 08 is an improvement on CoS 99 until such a time as the "threat" of payrises for CoS08 only is carried out.
Interesting logic.
Further, the big honcho has backed away from this threat when he realised the legal ramifications. Guess he learnt it doesn't pay to telegraph your punches.
I will try and find you the link.
Interesting logic.
Further, the big honcho has backed away from this threat when he realised the legal ramifications. Guess he learnt it doesn't pay to telegraph your punches.
I will try and find you the link.
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Hi Ex C,
"Now, what I don't get is why I should vote for or against improvements on a contract that I won't elect...?"
The vote is not about YOU, it is about what you can do for those who are on, or wish to choose, COS08.
By voting for it and supporting the AOA recommendation, THEY will get the improvements.
If you don't vote, or vote no, and the vote does not pass, the improvements won't be accepted and those that would've benefited will not, while you remain at the status quo. Although, consider that many (not all) of the improvements will not be reflected in the COS document and are policy change that YOU will benefit from.
What the AOA is saying by recommending a vote to accept the changes is that they believe it is the best improvements they can get at this time - Rule 9 of Negotiating 101, know when to take a deal.
The question you should be asking is "not what your Association can do FOR YOU, but what YOU CAN DO for your Association".
What COS you elect in Crew Direct is what will affect you personally.
For future negotiations, any improvement to the current COS raises the bench mark.
"Now, what I don't get is why I should vote for or against improvements on a contract that I won't elect...?"
The vote is not about YOU, it is about what you can do for those who are on, or wish to choose, COS08.
By voting for it and supporting the AOA recommendation, THEY will get the improvements.
If you don't vote, or vote no, and the vote does not pass, the improvements won't be accepted and those that would've benefited will not, while you remain at the status quo. Although, consider that many (not all) of the improvements will not be reflected in the COS document and are policy change that YOU will benefit from.
What the AOA is saying by recommending a vote to accept the changes is that they believe it is the best improvements they can get at this time - Rule 9 of Negotiating 101, know when to take a deal.
The question you should be asking is "not what your Association can do FOR YOU, but what YOU CAN DO for your Association".
What COS you elect in Crew Direct is what will affect you personally.
For future negotiations, any improvement to the current COS raises the bench mark.
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The question you should be asking is "not what your Association can do FOR YOU, but what YOU CAN DO for your Association".
Do you hire a housekeeper, then have her sit on the couch while you clean up? Or hire a lawyer, then defend yourself in court?
The question IS what the AOA can do for you. They claim to offer a service, charge you good money for it, yet fail to deliver time and time again.
Vote no on COS 08 "improvements" ie. lipstick on a pig!
AOA SO GAY!!
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7700 and buddies - loving the attitude lads!
"I can stay on the COS that suits me best but F
K the rest of you wanks who were stupid enough to join on/switch to COS 08"
You must get vertigo looking down on all the idiots below you on the ASL
For crying out loud when will people learn that if this company puts money on the table then GRAB IT WITH BOTH FING HANDS. If you dont it will evaporate never to be seen again! Talk about making the same mistake again and again and again
For some COS 08 is actually an improvement however, if you do not feel that way then the more fortunate of you can maintain your individual status quo and remain on COS99. Still I guess that ability would just not be good enough unless you were also given the ability to st on those who have no choice in the matter.
"Yeah baby I will take what I want and make damn sure anybody stupid enough not to think like me gets royally FED."
Maybe you guys should look to moving to an office on the third floor. You have the necessary people skills required!
"I can stay on the COS that suits me best but F
K the rest of you wanks who were stupid enough to join on/switch to COS 08"You must get vertigo looking down on all the idiots below you on the ASL
For crying out loud when will people learn that if this company puts money on the table then GRAB IT WITH BOTH F
ING HANDS. If you dont it will evaporate never to be seen again! Talk about making the same mistake again and again and againFor some COS 08 is actually an improvement however, if you do not feel that way then the more fortunate of you can maintain your individual status quo and remain on COS99. Still I guess that ability would just not be good enough unless you were also given the ability to s
t on those who have no choice in the matter. "Yeah baby I will take what I want and make damn sure anybody stupid enough not to think like me gets royally F
ED." Maybe you guys should look to moving to an office on the third floor. You have the necessary people skills required!
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Exactly IFB.
Plus what is all this about improvements achieved on COS 08, pity we did not grab it when it was offered, it actually had pay increases in it for a few years! Take what is offered and go back again - but of course the "young bloods" who know it all believe that their "unity", which nobody has had before them, will achieve "great" things.
Plus what is all this about improvements achieved on COS 08, pity we did not grab it when it was offered, it actually had pay increases in it for a few years! Take what is offered and go back again - but of course the "young bloods" who know it all believe that their "unity", which nobody has had before them, will achieve "great" things.
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Yeah you are right IFB, cater to the minority. Why not do something for less than 20% of the pilot body, instead of working a deal for the other 80 PERCENT and those that have been here DECADES longer than some new joiner.
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Sqwak7700,
your "undisputed facts" are disputed and unfactual. Further pay raises will not be solely on cos08, that would be against the companies stated promise not to discriminate against those of us who stay on cos99. if they lie, i hope you'll be the first to take them to the labor tribunal and you'll have the full backing of the aoa. Please read the the latest update if you can't make it to the meeting so you'll be better informed.
your "undisputed facts" are disputed and unfactual. Further pay raises will not be solely on cos08, that would be against the companies stated promise not to discriminate against those of us who stay on cos99. if they lie, i hope you'll be the first to take them to the labor tribunal and you'll have the full backing of the aoa. Please read the the latest update if you can't make it to the meeting so you'll be better informed.
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Sorry IFB, but COS08 was a failure of this pilot group. Not entirely our fault since we don't really have much choice when the company says that newhires will be on COS08.
In a normal company, everybody would be on the same conditions, even new-joiners. I never expected you, a newjoiner, to fight my battles. But surely if you did your research you would have learned of the dilemma we have dealt with regarding A and B scales. Anytime you have a "B" scale, you lower the bar. The only way to fight this race to the bottom is to prevent the B scale in the first place.
Now, we weren't able to prevent the newhires coming on COS08, but I can sure do my part to prevent more people take it up. As mentioned above, the majority are on COS99, so I am fighting for the majority, not just myself. It is you who is not the team player. Why don't you help the fight and maybe if we all say no to COS08 and SLS we can get them to put everyone on COS99, including yourself.
Remember boys, the company needs you to take the pane from a to b. This place runs on freewill, and if you think we don't have any power to affect negotiations, you are not giving yourself enough credit.
In a normal company, everybody would be on the same conditions, even new-joiners. I never expected you, a newjoiner, to fight my battles. But surely if you did your research you would have learned of the dilemma we have dealt with regarding A and B scales. Anytime you have a "B" scale, you lower the bar. The only way to fight this race to the bottom is to prevent the B scale in the first place.
Now, we weren't able to prevent the newhires coming on COS08, but I can sure do my part to prevent more people take it up. As mentioned above, the majority are on COS99, so I am fighting for the majority, not just myself. It is you who is not the team player. Why don't you help the fight and maybe if we all say no to COS08 and SLS we can get them to put everyone on COS99, including yourself.
Remember boys, the company needs you to take the pane from a to b. This place runs on freewill, and if you think we don't have any power to affect negotiations, you are not giving yourself enough credit.
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Un-effing believable. I would love for a captain to look at an Cos08 SO in the face and tell him he voted DOWN the improvement to his Cos that has no effect of him. To say that you want to keep the bottom **** to stop people from coming in is pure insanity. I especially love all this attitude from B SCALERS! You above all should know what it feels like for your senior colleagues to sail you down the river so they don't have to swim. Stop the trend of eating your young. FCUK. This really is a no brainer. Make gains when you can for chris sake.
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Thanks a lot Darling... (Man, I haven't had the chance to say that in a while...) 
It does make sense if the changes also apply to those who had no choice but to join on POS08. I didn't know their contracts were going to benefit from the improvements as well.
It does make sense if the changes also apply to those who had no choice but to join on POS08. I didn't know their contracts were going to benefit from the improvements as well.
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iLuvPX – with 15% of pilots already on COS 08 and another 15% on A scale due to retire in the next 4.5 years or under, your “less than 20%” minority is already nearer 30%. Additionally for whatever reason (age, base, ftr fleet, etc) there are many of the remaining crew who actually see COS 08 as an advantage. That means your “minority” if not already a majority it is pretty close to becoming one! As for your second point, this deal actually seems to FAVOUR the older guy who has been here for decades, not only does it give him protected A scale for another 4.5 years, but he can then work for another 10 years should he wish to! But don’t let either of the above facts put you off spouting rubbish!
Crucially you have the choice to stay on 99 with BPP etc etc should you feel the deal offered is not good enough. If that is your feeling then fine stay on 99, but what I can’t understand is why you would actively choose to reduce the COS of another work colleague (whatever, that percentage is). That to me is utter selfishness at its worst!
7700 – What makes you think I am a new joiner? Just because I wrote my post based on your perspective perhaps? Fact is I am on COS 99. I may not like the new version of COS 08, but it is an improvement for many and it is certainly a better deal than what was originally on offer thanks to the AOA. More importantly it is about as good as we can expect at the moment! History has shown us that when this company introduce a new scale, there is no going back. Question is are you ready to learn from history? Unfortunately it was our fault that COS 08 was introduced, but if we were ever going to win that one we had to do it years ago. We failed on that score and now have to make the best of a bad situation and cutting off our noses to spite our faces (or rather cutting off the noses of those on COS 08) is not the way to do it. To that end we have 2 choices:
1. Fight the company to put all on COS 99. If that is you choice then look at how the A vs B scale fight went and see if you can predict the future on that front? Nobel cause perhaps, but reality says that it is a lost one.
2. Try to improve the new COS 08 ASAP. To vote no to the AOA will do the exact opposite.
If you want to fight the company then fine go ahead but don’t do it by sacrificing other peoples COS improvements.
Crucially you have the choice to stay on 99 with BPP etc etc should you feel the deal offered is not good enough. If that is your feeling then fine stay on 99, but what I can’t understand is why you would actively choose to reduce the COS of another work colleague (whatever, that percentage is). That to me is utter selfishness at its worst!
7700 – What makes you think I am a new joiner? Just because I wrote my post based on your perspective perhaps? Fact is I am on COS 99. I may not like the new version of COS 08, but it is an improvement for many and it is certainly a better deal than what was originally on offer thanks to the AOA. More importantly it is about as good as we can expect at the moment! History has shown us that when this company introduce a new scale, there is no going back. Question is are you ready to learn from history? Unfortunately it was our fault that COS 08 was introduced, but if we were ever going to win that one we had to do it years ago. We failed on that score and now have to make the best of a bad situation and cutting off our noses to spite our faces (or rather cutting off the noses of those on COS 08) is not the way to do it. To that end we have 2 choices:
1. Fight the company to put all on COS 99. If that is you choice then look at how the A vs B scale fight went and see if you can predict the future on that front? Nobel cause perhaps, but reality says that it is a lost one.
2. Try to improve the new COS 08 ASAP. To vote no to the AOA will do the exact opposite.
If you want to fight the company then fine go ahead but don’t do it by sacrificing other peoples COS improvements.
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why we are voting on improvements to the COS08?
Simple. It's a requirement under the rules of the HKAOA.
A member tried to get a motion criticising the last GC for not putting RP extension to the vote.
It's pretty clear that voting to accept improvements to something (not sure when we last got improvements to anything) is something that should not be rejected.
It's just as clear that accepting these improvements does not mean anyone has to sign onto COS08.
A member tried to get a motion criticising the last GC for not putting RP extension to the vote.
It's pretty clear that voting to accept improvements to something (not sure when we last got improvements to anything) is something that should not be rejected.
It's just as clear that accepting these improvements does not mean anyone has to sign onto COS08.
