Why a vote on COS08 improvements?

[Adolf88]

To all the (possible) NO voters out there:

Have you ever thought about this one:
"transferring from your CoS99 onto CoS08 in say 3 years time (for whatever reason)?"

Wouldn't you like those conditions being then as good as they can be?

Regards

[FlexibleResponse]

adolf88 from Berchtesgaden

To all the (possible) NO voters out there:

Have you ever thought about this one:
"transferring from your CoS99 onto CoS08 in say 3 years time (for whatever reason)?"

Wouldn't you like those conditions being then as good as they can be?

Regards

Your handle and location is rather distasteful and indicates an unsavoury and unbalanced mental attitude.

[goathead]

Vote NO to "the improvements of cos 08"

Why ?

Just look to the problem faced by our A scale brethren , they are being f###ed ! , big time !!! soon that will be us! soon you will be faced with the same sort of of b#lls##t , and all you non AOA whinging lot will still be harping on here like the sorry lot you are , no vote no say.

IF YOU THINK AGREEING TO SLS AND COS 08 WILL APPEASE YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN . SLS is just a voluntary paycut ! wise up

Vote NO to the improvement of cos 08 , NOT GOOD ENOUGH YET !

Send a message, we can do better

P.S why did we approve SLS ??? i still dont get it ?

[Oval3Holer]

Unsavoury? Oh my God!

[Sqwak7700]

IFB:

I guessed that you where a new-joiner because of your apparent lack of understanding and your limited posts.

First of all, there will never be one scale at CX. I can guarantee you in a few years time they will be pushing COS14 or something like it down our throat. And you will be crying that we should protect COS08 to someone that thinks we should improve COS14.

Are you not smart enough to see that history is repeating itself? This is our chance to stop the cycle, or at least fight against it. You suggest giving up on it cause it is too hard. I'm sorry, but I have a little more backbone than you do, and I believe in standing up, regardless of the consequences. If you don't, then you are only helping them repeat the degradation that they brought on the A scale when B was introduced.

The only way to stop them in my opinion is to vote NO on SLS and COS08, and vote NO on improvements to COS08. That is the first step, and that is the only way to show unity for our rights. Then we can continue the battle on bypass pay and continue fighting the company in the courts every time that they abuse our contract.

You need to stand up now IFB. Don't wait until it is unbearably crappy to work here, do it now before it gets that way.

Frog in steadily heating water analogy seems comes to mind....

[IFB]

Limited posts does not man lack of experience, but instead the fact that I have a life and so do not spend hours on this forum! Wonder if you can say the same?

You and I will just have to agree to disagree and I see little point in either one of us trying to change the other POV because it just wont happen.

Fact is if I choose to stay on 99, but vote to keep others from bettering their COS in the knowledge that my COS will not change then I just could not live with myself!! You are one special breed And I thought you said you did not expect others to fight your battles! Nice one

In my opinion your opinion is lousy but hey if voting to screw over you less fortunate work mates gets you what YOU want then I guess in your special world of 1 the ends justify the means.

Now that COS 08 is here with about 15% of crews on it you are deluded if you think the company will have a change of heart and put everybody onto COS 99 just because some voted to stay on 99 and no to SLS. I don't suggest giving up because things are too hard, but that we lost that particular battle years ago and it is now a lost cause. Ever heard the phrase "flogging a dead horse" in your special world? As of now we should be practising damage limitation and grab everything we can when it is on the table because soon as the vote goes against the company the sweeteners will go never to be seen again. By the way how is your 3% payrise as of the first of Jan 09........Oh hang on a minute we did'nt get one. Thats right it is because the company took that sweetener off the table because the GC could not put COS 08 to the vote. Seems that worked out well for everybody! Not trying to say that the GC were wrong in that case, but just wondering if you have learnt the lesson about history repeating itself! No oh well. As for COS14 well I guess time will be the jury on that one, but if I do not like it and if they give me the choice to stay on 99 or 08 or whatever COS I am on, then I will make my choice knowing that I did not push other drowning men under to better my own position.

You cannot say the same.

[iLuvPX]

I concede the AOA has done some good for their members over the years, though not more good than bad overall. But this is not the time for weakness. Sweetening up a bad deal still lowers the bar. How can you not see this? And dont say they are doing this just to be in a position to negotiate better things later on. You can put a turd on a plate and call it fillet mignon, but in the end, youre still eating sh!t.

I agree also that the infighting must stop. Pprune has been the only outlet for frustrations about this current situation. I wish collectively we could do more to stop the CX machine, but in the end, they will win no matter what. They know, the AOA knows it, we all know it...thats whats so crappy about it.

Nothing will change, management will always win. So for now, im bending over a pinball machine in a dirty bar, skirt hiked up, panties around my ankles, waiting for NR and TT to take turns at me. The best we can hope for is that they have warm hands.

Peace.

[Sqwak7700]

As for COS14 well I guess time will be the jury on that one, but if I do not like it and if they give me the choice to stay on 99 or 08 or whatever COS I am on, then I will make my choice knowing that I did not push other drowning men under to better my own position.

This statement just proves that you are really over your head on this discussion. You are not grasping the point that others, including myself, have brought up in this discussion.

We are not doing this to keep COS08 people down, we are doing this to prevent further degradation to COS99. You, have already given up on COS99 and are spreading for the COS08 and SLS pineapple. I haven't, and neither will many others here, that is why our opinions are so different. You are willing to get robbed 100$ and are very happy to get back 25$. I have simply kept my wallet closed so that I can hang on to my 100$ for as long as I can. I am preventing, while you are facilitating. Big difference.

As far as having a life, you might be wrong on that. You join this discussion, as others have, and then insult us by saying we have no life. That is very hypocritical of you. You want to join this discussion but believe that you are too good for it? That explains why your view is so skewed. You lack consistency and the foresight to see how this improvement to COS08 is really a degradation to your current COS - I can't explain it to you any clearer.

So, as you say, lets agree to disagree and you can return to your busy life, no need to waste your opinion on here anymore. This will give you more time to prepare for your "date" with management. I recommend you bring lube and lots of liquor, it will hurt less. Wish I could tell you how bad it will feel, but I haven't stooped to your level and never will, so you are on your own. Of you go.

[iceman50]

Fortunately Sqwak7700 you will be in the minority and your continued sexual references only destroy your arguments - grow up.

[Flap10]

Fortunately Sqwak7700 you will be in the minority

Possibly, but his point is extremely valid. Ironic how the same people that are quick to protect the AoA, and preach unity, are the same people that will throw in the towel and quickly accept a new CoS, and then come up with lame excuses to justify their actions, my favorite being, "it is the best we can get under the circumstances", how many times has that been said on this forum throughout the last ten years.

[Sqwak7700]

Fortunately Sqwak7700 you will be in the minority...

I'd hate to piss on your parade, but I don't think this minority will be as minor as you think. I'm not the only one that thinks the union caved, and is suspicious as to why we are voting on improvements to the crappier deal.

...and your continued sexual references only destroy your arguments - grow up.

Sorry that my references to sexual discomfort make you feel uneasy. Think of it as training for what is to come your way when you accept these crappy deals.

And in the future, unless you are gonna contribute to the original post / subject, take your criticisms to another "the AOA is doing the best they can" threads.

The question in this thread was why we are voting on this improvement. I don't believe the AOA's argument that it is "contractual". If that was the case, then why isn't the COS08 up for a membership vote? That was negotiated with the union, so why is it any different than the "improvements" that where negotiated? It just doesn't make any sense. Instead of jumping to the AOA's defense why don't you question why this is so?

Maybe it is because if we had a vote on COS08 the majority would shoot it down in flames and the small minority that stands to loose less from this deal would be left with nothing. It will be interesting to find out how the AOA president and GC members vote on COS08 on the 18th of May.

[IFB]

7700 - The reason I have decided to join this thread is because people like you seem hell bent on screwing over the more junior members already on COS 08 and anybody thinking of changing over for whatever valid reason they may have. This issue is unlike many of the rantings on PPRUNE and thus very important.

We are not doing this to keep COS08 people down, we are doing this to prevent further degradation to COS99.

You say you do not want too keep those on 08 down, but that is exactly what you are doing. If you do not like the deal being offered then fine stay on 99 and say no to SLS. That is your choice and if it suits you then great, best of luck. What I am saying is do not FK it up for those without a choice. By voting No to the AoA you are in danger of reducing the proposed COS 08 considerably, but you will be on COS 99 and thus your COS will not change. You have nothing to lose by remaining on 99 but others with no choice will lose a great deal due to your selfish actions

Like I said in my first post your attitude is:

"I can stay on the COS that suits me best but FK the rest of you wanks who were stupid enough to join on/switch to COS 08"

Seems that you want to push the pinapple up the AS of those without a choice!

Like I said that office on the third floor is calling!

[Sqwak7700]

You keep repeating yourself. What you need to do is read the posts. I told you, my reasons, I'm not gonna repeat myself again, you obviously have problems reading.

The people that joined or will join COS08 made their choice, they had an option, so they are not "helpless". They made their choice and now you expect me to take a hit to improve their conditions? I am all for improvements to all conditions of service.

I'm sure you won't be supporting an improvement to COS99 that disadvantages your precious COS08. You would do the same, and it all basically depends on which side of the fence you stand.

[IFB]

So you DO want new joiners to fight your battles! Like they had an option to choose which COS they joined on. . . . . T**T.

Don't tell me in your opinion they should have stayed on the dole rather than take a job with cx.

The point is YOU are not taking a hit. They are. All you have to do to improve their already inferior COS is support the AoA's recomendation, nothing else. You will still have your superior COS 99 a fact that will not change no matter what you do

Are you the old GMA?

[Sqwak7700]

You are still not reading the posts

[goathead]

IFB
I concur
You are still not reading the posts

[IFB]

7700 - As requested, but not required, I have re-read your posts and can conclude you are indeed a man of principle. Your long term aim appears to be the improvement of COS for all. A nobel cause, unfortunatly you goal is achieved by sarificing the new joiners improvements to their COS, whilst you risk nothing.

The people that joined or will join COS08 made their choice, they had an option, so they are not "helpless".

As you have not yet provided an answer could you please tell all those new joiners on COS 08 what you consider their choices were?

[Sqwak7700]

As you have not yet provided an answer could you please tell all those new joiners on COS 08 what you consider their choices were?

I don't think that battle should be fought by new-joiners. That is similar to the hiring ban, which while it kept some away, it did not work.

It was always our responsibility to prevent COS08 from happening, and the fight is still not over. Only a small minority is on COS08 and we can stop that minority from growing, that is my strategy. Bringing improvements to COS08 only gets more people to take the trap.

In todays economic climate it is impossible to negotiate a good deal. Why do you think that the company is trying to force this ****t deal down our throat? They only have a little longer before the recovery starts gaining traction, that is why the timeline is so short. They know that they won't have a leg to stand on in a couple of months.

And once it does turn around we could use the shortage of pilots to our advantage. We are still understaffed, which is proven by the fact that they haven't assigned contractual leave. You honestly think that SLS will equate to time off for anyone? Wrong, why do you think they have this bull****t ghosted credit? Why not get the regular 2hrs credit? Because they plan on abusing it, that is why. And the flight pay you will get back in return is a token you won't even notice. Not when you are taking such a significant pay cut.

Both deals are ****t, and seeing others willingly accept them makes me feel like I am in an episode of "The Twilight Zone".

[IFB]

In agreement with you about SLS, never said otherwise, perhaps you are not reading my posts! But once again you still have not answered the question about new joiners on COS 08.

What do you consider their choices were?

As you have said a hiring ban probably would not have worked, but more importantly there was not one in place anyway.

You're right that in these conditions it would be imposible to negotiate a good deal and thus I can only conclude that you feel the AOA secured improvements are therefore a great achievement! As for the recovery again only time will tell if your prediction is correct. However, would you bet a large portion of your COS on that assumption, because that is what you are expecting the new joiners on COS 08 to do on your behalf

Now please stop acting like a politician and answer the question.

[Sqwak7700]

However, would you bet a large portion of your COS on that assumption, because that is what you are expecting the new joiners on COS 08 to do on your behalf

That is exactly what you are doing by taking COS08, genius!

I don't expect the new joiners to fight my battles, I already told you that. You are acting like a politician in that you don't listen / read

I'm sure you will be voting yes to the "improvements" - in quotes because we haven't actually seen the text yet, so technically, they don't even exist. I will be voting a big fat NO to protect all of the pilots that are still on COS99, which are the majority of the group. Don't understand why that is so hard for you to understand.

The new joiners are just unlucky that they joined under those conditions, but surely they should have known that joining on lower COS there would be differences of opinion when dealing with improvements and changes. Just as I knew that joining in B scale I would have a different opinion than a pilot who is still under the A scale. Plain and simple (I understand that you disagree IFB, so no need to keep telling me that).

Now, back to the main discussions. How do other COS99 officers feel about these improvements? How will you vote, and why? (Note: this question is for COS99 officers, if you are on COS08, you don't need to express why you would vote for the improvements)