A few questions from the other side of the world

[UAL Management Sucks]

I am a United Captain (757) watching from this side of the world as you go through the current uproar with CX management. It looks to be an interesting few months ahead over there.

My name is Pete Willer and I am on the pilot committee for ALPA at United. We are about to go through another round of cuts at United, without question. I am in the process of putting together some comparisons to other airlines both in the US and a few overseas. I'm not sure if the data from outside the US will be very applicable or not but it is raising some interesting ideas. If anyone has the time and inclination to provide input, it would be much appreciated.

Questions:
1. What is your typical path to Captain? Obviously, from my reading it is clear things have changed in the last few years so my interest in more in people who maybe started between 10 & 20 years ago.
*Do you have any say over airplane bid or when to become a Captain?
*How many years (reading here and on other sites makes it appear to have been 8-10 years in the past)?
*Has there been an age limit on becoming a Captain on either side, meaning too young or too old? The few times I have run across CX pilots, they a good bit younger than the person filling a comparable seat in the US.

2. Schedules -
*I have gotten a good feel for long-haul flying reading here, but what does a typical schedule/roster look like if one mainly flies regionally (much more similar to 90% of our flying)? Would you fly 2/3/4/5 day trips? 1/2/3+ legs per day? Days per month?
*It appears you have almost no say over your schedule or roster, particularly compared to our bidding system, but if anyone has a perspective on that I'm interested.

3. Pay -
*Is it true that a 20 year vet is basically making the same today as in 1994 when the shifts began to happen? For us, we are back to about 2000/01.
*Are there any retirement benefits for older pilots other than this 16% provident fund?

4. Finally - If anyone has an opinion...Why do people stay at CX? There is clearly much unrest and displeasure but many pilots stay.

That is it, but I'm open to other ideas.

Thank you,
Pete

[blade]

hmmmm I would think you should approach the HKAOA for this info

[yokebearer]

I will answer your final question - people stay because many of them are from Canada, Australia, NZ and South Africa where there are very few jobs with major airlines that compare favourably in terms of salary. Unlike in the States.
CX does pay much much less than in the past - but it is still mostly on par or better than airlines back home for these guys. This is changing slowly. Qantas apparently now offer better career earnings than Cathay ( Hearsay - don't quote me )

Secondly - obviously seniority plays a role too.

[Lowkoon]

Or IFALPA will give you the comparison from right across the globe. Dont just compare yourself to one insignificant irrelevant Asian carrier.

[TheHKAOA]

I am on the pilot committee for ALPA at United

Hi Pete

Sorry but if you really are who you say you are, all you need do is ask someone at ALPA who to contact at the HKAOA and they will tell you - rather than posting in this forum.

ALPA top negotiators have had very good relations with the HKAOA for many years and all the seniors in both organisations know each other very well.

[744Cap]

Pete,

Most of what you asked is public knowledge but can admittedly be hard to find and verify, so I don't mind giving basic answers. The others are right that it's a good idea to approach the AOA but I guess there could be reasons to ask here as well.

1. We have very little say over what we fly. It's just a reality. I am an American and my brother flies for DL, and it's a different world over here. You can request, but that's about all. Some people have tried to target their start dates/training/etc. to get a certain plane but it's pretty useless. It took me just under 9 years to captain, pretty typical until recently for it to be 8-10 years. A few took longer but it was usually for other reasons. I'm not as pessimistic as some on here, but it is longer for sure now, probably 12+ years. I don't know of a stated age limit for promotion but don't know of any under 30? Others might. There may not be a limit so to speak but just the reality of getting close to 10 years in. I have heard stories of guys getting it at 27 but my guess is that was a long time ago. I never knew anyone that young in the left seat. As far as the top side, again I don't think there's a true limit but realistically they probably aren't promoting a 50 year old. I guess RA65 might change that but traditionally our cockpit crews are A LOT younger than what you're used to in the US. Personal guess, average CN is early 40's but can range from early 30's to obviously 54.99 or later now, FO is 27-35, SO is usually under 32 (they are starting to look a lot younger to me than they used to!).

2. My flying is almost all ULH and for the most part has been my whole time here, so there may be better answers. I did it years ago but only for a while. There are two types of "regional" flying. The first is ME and Oz, usually 6-9 hours. The second is more what US domestic pilots do, which is lots of Japan, Korea, SE Asia, etc. Almost all of our flights other than MNL/TPE are over 3 hours so no one flies four or five legs a day. On the first, you tend to go out and back as we don't fly multiple routes, everything is HKG-XXX-HKG (almost). So the trips are usually three days and let's say 16 hours. Do that and you might do five trips a month. I don't know if a lot of guys do that alone, though. The Asia regional trips I just don't know much about so others may have more input. My experience was 2-4 day trips with 2-8 legs. You might do something like HKG-NRT/NRT-HKG-TPE/TPE-HKG-KUL/KUL-HKG on a 4-day. Again, a long, long time ago for me and the schedules are really different now, so you might rely on someone else for that info. ULH you fly 10-14 days a month with 12-13 being pretty normal; non-ULH is probably more like 15 days. You're right, there is no bidding and never will be. You do have a "fair" amount of control over when you fly but almost none over where (except we can request a destination). You might fly 6-8 legs in a month and have one trip to a place you requested. After a while, most people just worry about the when and let the where take care of itself. Again, very different than your bid system and I personally think that's one of the hardest adjustments for Americans.

3. Yes, that's pretty much the case. It's even worse for Australians and some Europeans due to currency issues. At least for Americans we've kept the same exchange rate. On retirement, yes there are other benefits. We get a guaranteed payout at retirement.

4. People stay for lots of reasons. Yoke's perspective is probably the biggest reason. Americans stay because they like HKG or flying big jets at a younger age, or because they marry over here and have to stay! Also, while it's not great right now with the "negotiations", we have never had layoffs and the pay is still well above US for the most part. When you add in the 13th month and profit sharing, as well as the ability to take housing in cash once your place is paid off, you're actually making a lot more than people on here tend to think about. Also, don't read pprune as the pilot population. It's a b**** board most of the time, which I actually think is good. It's a way to let off steam without doing so in the cockpit or at your managers face-to-face (probably not a good idea here). But A LOT of pilots really do like it here and that's evident when you hang out on the road. Hint: If all ppruners left, we'd still be flying most of our flights. They're not a big percentage of the pilot population. I have been here 16 years and stay because a) the money isn't as good as I hoped when I started but far better than what I would be making if I had left after 5-10 years and returned stateside at UA or DL (interviewed at both in '96-'97 and really glad now I didn't go that route), b) I personally prefer flying the 744 to SFO/LHR/CDG to flying some M80 to DSM and DTW, c) I have made incredible friends here and enjoy the multi-cultural city as well as cockpit, and d) I still sit in a restaurant in Paris or London and realize I'm pretty lucky to do this instead of the other options.

PM me if you have other questions.

[Midnight Rambler]

There is a godess after all!

Thanks for putting a balanced perspective on things. Quite refreshing, but I also agree it's better to see the ranting on Pprune than to hear it on the flight deck.

[BuzzBox]

Well done - that's the most balanced reply I've seen on this forum for a long time.

[the reo]

clarification

Point 3.
Guaranteed payout at retirement - just to clarify you are guaranteed to get a payout at retirement, BUT you won't know how good or bad it will be until the you get very close to that retirement point.
Ie there is no guarantee on the size of the retirement payout.

[Oval3Holer]

While were on the subject of clarification:

Point 3. The company provides a retirement plan in the form of 15.5% of a pilot's base salary each month which can either be taken as cash (i.e. taxable salary), or can be put into a Hong Kong tax-free "401-K" account. This 15.5% is NOT tax-free to the IRS, so, even if a US citizen or permanent resident puts it into a tax-free account in Hong Kong, he or she still has to report it as taxable income to the IRS.

Upon retirement, if one has NOT been taking it as cash, but rather has been putting it into the "401-K" account, one can take all of the company's contributions, as well as all one's own personal, additional contributions, as a lump-sum cash payout.

It's basically a Hong Kong-style 401-K into which the company puts 15.5% of your salary, and into which you can put a certain percentage, as well. It's tax-advantaged in Hong Kong, but not tax-advantaged at all for US citizens.

Hope that clears it up.

One doesn't RETIRE from Cathay Pacific. One QUITS. The only difference between retiring and quitting is that retirees get some sort of reduced-fare travel benefits. That's IT! No retiree health care, no defined-benefit pension (i.e. years of service x a percentage x 5 highest years of earnings). That went out with the contract change in 1993, I believe.

[Flap10]

744cap,

With all due respect, and agreed sometimes there is a lot of whining and complaining here on pprune, but it isn't as rosy as you make it out to be. You joined Cathay when times were good, and your description is based on times gone by.

Have a look at morale amongst the junior crews. Most stay because employment choices are limited at the moment, but when the industry turns around many will leave Cathay, which in the past was unheard of. Look what has happened to every aspect of our employment, from Flight Time Limitations to Rostering, it's all been degraded, and not by a little, but by a lot, and not to mention blatant contract breaches. Now project that 16 years into the future for our junior crews, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I joined around the same time as you did, and it has been a great Carreer to date, but understandably the junior crews will have a completely different outlook.

[Aussie]

Flap 10

Valid point mate, but you need to remember that the degredation of general T&Cs is not just in CX, but industry wide... CX is STILL a better deal then most other airlines...

[Freehills]

Yep, it is not good in many places. UAL have furloughed back to year 2000 intake or so, FEDEX have cut flying hours (and so pay) by a fair %, and UPS have told the union there to agree to savings, or 300 or so furloughs.

[KRMQQ]

Flap 10 you said man:
"Have a look at morale amongst the junior crews. Most stay because employment choices are limited at the moment, but when the industry turns around many will leave Cathay, which in the past was unheard of. Look what has happened to every aspect of our employment, from Flight Time Limitations to Rostering, it's all been degraded, and not by a little, but by a lot, and not to mention blatant contract breaches. Now project that 16 years into the future for our junior crews, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture"

That is EXACTLY what happened to the A-Scalers from 98 onwards. That's why so many want to (have to) work beyond age 55. That is precisely why you should think VERY hard about turning down RA65. You've done the reasoning yourself.

Problem is that everyone says we must stick together but read the venom in most of these posts and you will very soon realize you are all on your own. If you think you can rely on the poisonous souls who litter this forum with their vitriol then good luck to you. The majority can't even make a simple decision for themselves. They rely on the AOA to do their thinking for them. They want to follow the crowd and be told what to do. Great command potential in these people don't you think? Get a life, it really is each man for himself. It always has been.

[Flap10]

Actually KRMQQ, your choice, but I am not signing over to CoS08, I will retire at 55, but hey fill your boots!

[UAL Management Sucks]

HKAOA/blade - No offense by posting on here intended. We have info from more than a dozen ALPA branches and are absolutely using it. You are correct, they have been very helpful. However, it's just data and comes from the people that run the union. That's fine, but I also wanted to go and get some thoughts from pilots outside union management.

My purpose is simply that there are four of us putting together a paper for our members on the industry as a whole and where UAL is at this point, leading to where we go in our future negotiations. My part was to look at "middle age" pilots, thus the questions. Like I said, no offense meant by doing it on here. I've talked to pilots in bars at airports and hotels, posted on a few message boards like this and gone out to see two union heads (although only here in the US). This is just a way to check out what I think I'm finding across the industry.

744CAP - Thanks for all the info. It sounds like you are familiar with our old DB plans, which are largely going away now. Our plans pretty much look like what you call a provident fund these days. I have heard several things about CX A-scalers still having a guaranteed payout at retirement, but don't understand if that is like our DB plan or lump sum.

By the way, don't underestimate the Crowne Plaza by the Detroit airport in February!

[thehes]

I don't get it when you hear the senior guys gripe so much. Granted, I'm just a lowly SO but have heard the A-scale guys get something like $15m (HKD) guaranteed at retirement plus your 15.5% into the PF! C'mon guys, that's almost $2m USD!!! You're making $2m HKD plus a year and get another $15m at retirement. Sure, it's not the deal you expected to get pre-'99 but it's still a hell of a lot of money. I'm happy making what I do here given the US hiring prospects, so don't tell me how bad your situation is.

744Cap, I get your thing about where we go and will admit it can seem pretty cool, but you senior guys came and stay because of money. Nothing else.