Aoa Email 1 summary
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Aoa Email 1 summary
We fully recognise that much of what is presented is to do with cost-cutting for the long term, rather than cash saving in the short term.
These are essentially separate issues but the Company has chosen to bundle them together. This has been done to apply pressure on Officers who may feel they are being forced into accepting SLS in order to achieve CoS08, and hence RA65.
Your GC endorses the rationale for the Special Leave Scheme.
However, following a briefing from the Chief Executive we have not changed our view of the Company’s financial situation: we are not about to run out of cash. The scheme is being implemented not so much to save cash (although it will obviously save some), but primarily to demonstrate solidarity within the Company, so as to put pressure on suppliers.
So, like it or not, we are faced with SLS. However, please remember that at the end of the day, SLS is voluntary. Everybody can remain on current terms and decline to contribute - a right that your Association will vigorously defend.
Bear in mind that some of our Officers are still unable to achieve their contractual paid leave this year, as insufficient leave slots are available.
You are free to stay on CoS99 and receive full BPP.
You have the option to migrate to CoS08 to achieve RA65. GOOD for some
If you are an SO or FO and choose to migrate to CoS08 without delay you will not be expected to participate in SLS.
There is a lack of incentive for young Officers to sign across.
Initial calculations indicate that junior Officers and younger A-scalers could be significantly worse off.
The Company refused to add more paypoints to the CN scale, despite the Cathay Pacific career now being 10 years longer.
There is a serious discrepancy between CoS08 scales and USAB FO scales.
CoS Para 35.3. The Company currently has the right to terminate an Officer without stating reasons.
The HKAOA have the right to support members in legal action against the Company on issues such as BPP and age discrimination. The HKAOA is always willing and prepared to support legal action against the Company for discrimination of any form, be it age or otherwise,
The Company’s stated “worst-case scenario” was for the older crew (predominantly Captains) to sign across to CoS08, with the younger crew (predominantly SOs and FOs) to remain on CoS99.
By tying the two issues together, the worst-case scenario must surely be for a low take-up of CoS08 and a low take-up of SLS. The HKAOA believe that there is a very high risk of this.
The Company has gone on record as stating that there will be no victimisation of Officers who do not accept SLS but the GMA’s update in Crew Direct seemed to contradict this. Again, we will strongly support any Officer who believes he or she has been subject to unfair treatment as a result of non-acceptance of SLS.
Once again, our advice is to do nothing until your Association is able to provide you with more information on your choices. There is no rush.
Finally: You have a choice. Remaining on your current terms is an option that some, possibly many, will take.
These are essentially separate issues but the Company has chosen to bundle them together. This has been done to apply pressure on Officers who may feel they are being forced into accepting SLS in order to achieve CoS08, and hence RA65.
Your GC endorses the rationale for the Special Leave Scheme.
However, following a briefing from the Chief Executive we have not changed our view of the Company’s financial situation: we are not about to run out of cash. The scheme is being implemented not so much to save cash (although it will obviously save some), but primarily to demonstrate solidarity within the Company, so as to put pressure on suppliers.
So, like it or not, we are faced with SLS. However, please remember that at the end of the day, SLS is voluntary. Everybody can remain on current terms and decline to contribute - a right that your Association will vigorously defend.
Bear in mind that some of our Officers are still unable to achieve their contractual paid leave this year, as insufficient leave slots are available.
You are free to stay on CoS99 and receive full BPP.
You have the option to migrate to CoS08 to achieve RA65. GOOD for some
If you are an SO or FO and choose to migrate to CoS08 without delay you will not be expected to participate in SLS.
There is a lack of incentive for young Officers to sign across.
Initial calculations indicate that junior Officers and younger A-scalers could be significantly worse off.
The Company refused to add more paypoints to the CN scale, despite the Cathay Pacific career now being 10 years longer.
There is a serious discrepancy between CoS08 scales and USAB FO scales.
CoS Para 35.3. The Company currently has the right to terminate an Officer without stating reasons.
The HKAOA have the right to support members in legal action against the Company on issues such as BPP and age discrimination. The HKAOA is always willing and prepared to support legal action against the Company for discrimination of any form, be it age or otherwise,
The Company’s stated “worst-case scenario” was for the older crew (predominantly Captains) to sign across to CoS08, with the younger crew (predominantly SOs and FOs) to remain on CoS99.
By tying the two issues together, the worst-case scenario must surely be for a low take-up of CoS08 and a low take-up of SLS. The HKAOA believe that there is a very high risk of this.
The Company has gone on record as stating that there will be no victimisation of Officers who do not accept SLS but the GMA’s update in Crew Direct seemed to contradict this. Again, we will strongly support any Officer who believes he or she has been subject to unfair treatment as a result of non-acceptance of SLS.
Once again, our advice is to do nothing until your Association is able to provide you with more information on your choices. There is no rush.
Finally: You have a choice. Remaining on your current terms is an option that some, possibly many, will take.
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Reading between the lines, the HKAOA says that if your an FO/SO , do not sign and do not accept SLS.
The Company will look like soft dicks, especially to their suppliers!
The Company will look like soft dicks, especially to their suppliers!
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Maybe this should stay in your inbox
whilst it is nice to be informed, all those soft C%^&*S who are not in the AOA can wait and worry about what to do regarding COS 08 and SLS.
Members, like myself, who in the AOA, pay for the privilege of representation. If you are not a member maybe you should take a long look at yourself in the mirror as to why you are using PPrune as the source for information!
If we had more members and more unity we would get a better deal.
Members, like myself, who in the AOA, pay for the privilege of representation. If you are not a member maybe you should take a long look at yourself in the mirror as to why you are using PPrune as the source for information!
If we had more members and more unity we would get a better deal.
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If we had more members and more unity we would get a better deal
..you talk the talk but don't walk the walk!
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Viking:
Great way to alienate non union members...
The goal here is to unite the entire pilot body (union or not) to act against the company's threats. Yet you are turning this against a member vs. non-member fight.
If I wasn't a member, hearing the likes of you would certainly not make me want to join...
Great way to alienate non union members...
The goal here is to unite the entire pilot body (union or not) to act against the company's threats. Yet you are turning this against a member vs. non-member fight.
If I wasn't a member, hearing the likes of you would certainly not make me want to join...
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The point is we need to stand together.... for far far far too long have we been divided. I remember regular strikes by airline pilots would achieve lots by way of pay and condiotions as well as save those who were unfairly dismissed. If the correct course of action was taken with regard to the 49ers these guys would still be employed if only we all could take a stand and state one down all down its as simple as that. It works and it is powerful provided you dont abuse it. cmon stop the bickering because thats exactly what Management wants. I dont care member non member just stand for whats right and think if it was me in that situation what would I want my colleagues to do.
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Stand together?
How does a group stand together when a large portion of that group does not belong to the AOA.
Unfortunately, the AOA will be only able to offer advice on this issue. At the end of the day, it will be an individual decision. Don't listen to your ranting buddies. As we have seen in the past, they will rant in the bar but ironically will be the first to do something different.
Sadly, it is every man for themselves.
Unfortunately, the AOA will be only able to offer advice on this issue. At the end of the day, it will be an individual decision. Don't listen to your ranting buddies. As we have seen in the past, they will rant in the bar but ironically will be the first to do something different.
Sadly, it is every man for themselves.
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well lets just give up then shall we.......................what's the point in even having the union if guys think like this? I could save myself $1000 a month.
WE NEED TO HAVE A VOTE AND SEND THE COMPANY A MESSAGE.
Just as we have done before, offer rejected, come up with something better we can all live with.
isn't that why we have a Union negotiating on our behalf?
WE NEED TO HAVE A VOTE AND SEND THE COMPANY A MESSAGE.
Just as we have done before, offer rejected, come up with something better we can all live with.
isn't that why we have a Union negotiating on our behalf?
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Frogman1484;
why did you post the email, composed by the AOA for the AOA, on a public forum? Surely, whatever advice is being offered by the committee is for members only? A "benefit" - if you will - of paying membership fees.
why did you post the email, composed by the AOA for the AOA, on a public forum? Surely, whatever advice is being offered by the committee is for members only? A "benefit" - if you will - of paying membership fees.
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GE90115BL2
Unfortunately people like Westcoastcapt are a dime a dozen. Just flew with a guy who was more then happy for everyone else to pay money to the union, while he befits off the negotiations.
United we stand.... divided we fall! Please stop making $$$$ an excuse for not joining the AOA.
Unfortunately people like Westcoastcapt are a dime a dozen. Just flew with a guy who was more then happy for everyone else to pay money to the union, while he befits off the negotiations.
United we stand.... divided we fall! Please stop making $$$$ an excuse for not joining the AOA.
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United we stand...
I am afraid Westcoastcapt hit the nail on the head. It may not be the way it should be, but it is the reality.
For those of you that were not around in 99, the company attacked the A Scale salary. Many (not all) of those affected, chose to help the company operate while many B scale pilots unaffected by the cut stood united against the company.
Ironic how those A scalers now find themselves needing to work to over 55. Once again, someone else pays the price.
For those of you that were not around in 99, the company attacked the A Scale salary. Many (not all) of those affected, chose to help the company operate while many B scale pilots unaffected by the cut stood united against the company.
Ironic how those A scalers now find themselves needing to work to over 55. Once again, someone else pays the price.
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The first three pay points on the CN scale (CN1, CN2, SCN1) will not receive future pay rises until they are 5% behind their current B-scale position. In other words, when B-scale salaries are awarded pay rises, the first three pay points will remain static until they are 5% behind where they would have been if the pay rises had been universal. This is very disappointing. However, as it stands the next command, freighter or passenger, will be on proper B scale.
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Could someone answer this question please?
The AOA email page 5 mentions CoS Para 35.3 "the company currently has the right to terminate an officer without stating reason why..........."
There is NO Para 35.3 in the COS 08 document I read online?
have the company removed it without the AOA knowing?
Section 34.3 deals with termination with 3 months notice but doesn't state they can do it with no reason???
The new COS08 para 34 is the same as COS99??
The AOA email page 5 mentions CoS Para 35.3 "the company currently has the right to terminate an officer without stating reason why..........."
There is NO Para 35.3 in the COS 08 document I read online?
have the company removed it without the AOA knowing?
Section 34.3 deals with termination with 3 months notice but doesn't state they can do it with no reason???
The new COS08 para 34 is the same as COS99??
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Sleeve of Wizard, can you imagine the day that B scale salaries might outstrip freighter salaries by 5% on those CN salary increments, that is your answer. It is extremely badly written. 
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It refers to the CX COS 08 doc - you're reading the same paragraph, only for a base, yeah? "Dear Shaggs, you're fired. Here's 3 months pay, now bugger off!"
No change to COS 99
No change to COS 99
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I downloaded the link from the GMA's letter to COS08 and compared it to a current VETA 1999 and a current OABL 2002 contract.
All 3 have a section 34.4 But no section 35.3 as the AOA Email quotes.
Section 35 refers to retirement in all 3.
All 3 have a section 34.4 But no section 35.3 as the AOA Email quotes.
Section 35 refers to retirement in all 3.
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Does it really matter what the para number is? It differs depending on the cos doc you're looking at - still reads the same, under the title "Termination of Employment"
The AOA is talking about how this is interpreted and refers to the cos 08 doc 35.3 for hkg base - ie, "You're fired, here's 3 months pay and we don't need to tell you why"
The AOA is talking about how this is interpreted and refers to the cos 08 doc 35.3 for hkg base - ie, "You're fired, here's 3 months pay and we don't need to tell you why"