SCMP article re: local v expat terms
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Then please explain how a LOCAL (one with HKID no training and all flying paid for) can get EXPAT allowance by joining as a FTA instructor with CX? So suddenly by working FTA qualifies them to be an EXPAT now? Doesn't that fly in the face of your argument?
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HK Fooey, I think signal8 was objecting to my use of gweilo as a racist term 
Lets face it, any one who is caucasian ( a racist term?) is called a gweilo by the chinese (a racist term?) and expats alike. Now theres one for equality!
Gweilo is derogatory term, but we all seem to suffer it lightly when called by our own race.
Lets face it, any one who is caucasian ( a racist term?) is called a gweilo by the chinese (a racist term?) and expats alike. Now theres one for equality!
Gweilo is derogatory term, but we all seem to suffer it lightly when called by our own race.
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the LEPS are ONLY trying to fight for better Terms from the Company's (CX)'s pocket. even thou the CHANCES are SLIM to NONE because the company maintains a 10% of locals in the flight crew community. why create such a fuss? the point is, it is just the same for the SOs fighting for bypass pay, B scalers trying to get rid of A scalers beyond the age of 55... we are just doing the same thing aren't we? so why creating such an unnecessary debate and differentiation between "expat" and "local"? you guys too signed up for what u had in black and white. why screaming and shouting?
many of our STC across the fleets, were ex-BA cadet or miltary cadet, some form of other cadets too. so being a cadet isn't really a point, all the expenses may have been covered by you or by some other organisation, who cares, we all had to start somewhere, and all the cadetships weren't easy, and had to be completed with a limited timescale. Recalling from memory, correct me if im wrong, didn't cathay employed some BA cadets graduates in the early nineties?? if true, what kinda packages did they get? they had an option to leave, and did they??
h
added: it has also been discussed extensively nearly a decade ago:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...d-less-cx.html
discriminate or not, you decide yourself.
many of our STC across the fleets, were ex-BA cadet or miltary cadet, some form of other cadets too. so being a cadet isn't really a point, all the expenses may have been covered by you or by some other organisation, who cares, we all had to start somewhere, and all the cadetships weren't easy, and had to be completed with a limited timescale. Recalling from memory, correct me if im wrong, didn't cathay employed some BA cadets graduates in the early nineties?? if true, what kinda packages did they get? they had an option to leave, and did they??
h
added: it has also been discussed extensively nearly a decade ago:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...d-less-cx.html
discriminate or not, you decide yourself.
Last edited by hekokimushi; 1st Mar 2009 at 02:45.
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hekokimushi,
Finally someone with some sense. Well said!!
The sooner we all realise this, the sooner we maybe able to agree to pull together for a change.
WELL SAID hekokimushi
Finally someone with some sense. Well said!!
The sooner we all realise this, the sooner we maybe able to agree to pull together for a change.
WELL SAID hekokimushi
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supply and demand?
Removing all expat allowances will leave this airline where? The CX baseline pay in HK, after 16% tax, is still better than most European, North-American and Auzzie airlines offer. So would we still get the number of crews we need if we cut allowances?
The answer is a definitive yes, but we'd no longer be able to tempt the number of suitable, experiences guys with clean records from other airlines and airforces back home. In good times, the majority guys we'd get would be the rejects from the rest of the civilized world; guys who couldn't get hired with the majors back home and need to search the world like nomads trying to get hired by someone; anyone. Most of us wouldn't be here without the expat allowance is fair to say.
The wheels would certainly keep spinning for a while, but the 3rd floor knows the leverage of expat allowance; otherwise they'd have cut it long ago. I relocated from my friends and family and joined Cathay Pacific because the total package offered was better than my status quo. Which was already pretty good. And if a better package comes along some day, I'll pack my bags again.
Which is exactly what LEPs should do. Cadetships are a double-edged sword, no doubt about it. If you're old enough to receive one, then you're old enough to make that decision. Otherwise, go abroad, build your hours, and take your chances. More risk should provide more reward.
Now, is the price cadets pay for their sponsorship too high? Absolutely. It's insane. Half pay for an entire 35 year career? Yes, there should be a price to pay for cadetships, but it should also be reasonable. And on that point, the HKAOA should fight for LEPs.
The answer is a definitive yes, but we'd no longer be able to tempt the number of suitable, experiences guys with clean records from other airlines and airforces back home. In good times, the majority guys we'd get would be the rejects from the rest of the civilized world; guys who couldn't get hired with the majors back home and need to search the world like nomads trying to get hired by someone; anyone. Most of us wouldn't be here without the expat allowance is fair to say.
The wheels would certainly keep spinning for a while, but the 3rd floor knows the leverage of expat allowance; otherwise they'd have cut it long ago. I relocated from my friends and family and joined Cathay Pacific because the total package offered was better than my status quo. Which was already pretty good. And if a better package comes along some day, I'll pack my bags again.
Which is exactly what LEPs should do. Cadetships are a double-edged sword, no doubt about it. If you're old enough to receive one, then you're old enough to make that decision. Otherwise, go abroad, build your hours, and take your chances. More risk should provide more reward.
Now, is the price cadets pay for their sponsorship too high? Absolutely. It's insane. Half pay for an entire 35 year career? Yes, there should be a price to pay for cadetships, but it should also be reasonable. And on that point, the HKAOA should fight for LEPs.
The local guys on this forum, expect to get all the allowances of expats, by alienating the majority of pilots in Hong Kong (Expats), whom they need the support of to get over the line? 
Travelling the wrong path guys. You are a very small group in the sceme of things and would have a very slim chance at best of acheiving a favourable outcome on your own.
Be grateful for what you have and seek the support of others, by supporting them.
My 2 cents worth.
Travelling the wrong path guys. You are a very small group in the sceme of things and would have a very slim chance at best of acheiving a favourable outcome on your own.
Be grateful for what you have and seek the support of others, by supporting them.
My 2 cents worth.
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with all to respect.
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???
What is it guys? enlighten me please
out
h
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???
What is it guys? enlighten me please
out
h
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BA Mititary cadet
So who is the person trying to link BA cadets with military cadets? Grow up. 
So some BA cadet can graduate and become a FA, yet the military one can be shot at.
Any other long bows you wish to draw?
So some BA cadet can graduate and become a FA, yet the military one can be shot at. Any other long bows you wish to draw?
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Chill folks. It's not as complicated as it seems.
The merry go-around is just that, a merry go-around. LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.
Many expat AOA members believe that the LEP's are not worthy of support because they do not support the AOA, or believe outright that they don't deserve any sort of additional pay on top of what they're getting.
This will obviously never change. This "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" attitude exists on all levels, and on most issues. And of course, there will be no winners...
The merry go-around is just that, a merry go-around. LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.
Many expat AOA members believe that the LEP's are not worthy of support because they do not support the AOA, or believe outright that they don't deserve any sort of additional pay on top of what they're getting.
This will obviously never change. This "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" attitude exists on all levels, and on most issues. And of course, there will be no winners...
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The local guys on this forum, expect to get all the allowances of expats, by alienating the majority of pilots in Hong Kong (Expats), whom they need the support of to get over the line? 
Good luck next time you get screwed
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LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.
Wasnt this an article about Locally employed chinese pilots in Dragonair?
Funny how all threads get hijacked by the usual suspects.
Funny how all threads get hijacked by the usual suspects.
I do not know what goes on in CX but if you find yourself going from flying piston bug smashers to sitting in command of a KA Airbus while still in your twenties then you should realise that this is not because you have more talent, skill or maturity than everyone else (no, really…).
The reason is because you made a Faustian pact. You jump the queue and get a job with KA on the basis that you have a HKG ID card. You do this with qualifications and experience that would otherwise cause your application to be thrown in the bin (most of the guys on my intake were 737 captains, the rest had extensive jet transport experience).
In return for the meteoric rise, you have to agree to a contract, which forgoes expat allowances.
When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.
Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?
The reason is because you made a Faustian pact. You jump the queue and get a job with KA on the basis that you have a HKG ID card. You do this with qualifications and experience that would otherwise cause your application to be thrown in the bin (most of the guys on my intake were 737 captains, the rest had extensive jet transport experience).
In return for the meteoric rise, you have to agree to a contract, which forgoes expat allowances.
When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.
Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?
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When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.
I'm sure Diablo doesn't want to deal, but as in any line of work, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean you should stick your feet in quick dry concrete.
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As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place, pay rises are generally to keep up with the cost of living and in some cases, as recently, changes in exchange rates. ( yes, I know the exchange rate is now considerably better, that was not forecast when we got the pay rise )
You are not going to get people listen to your side of the argument, when time and again HKID cards are mentioned whilst skipping over the fact that no matter how long we live here IT WILL NEVER BE OUR TRUE HOME. End of story.
Quadspeed is right, remove all the allowances and the pay will still be good enough to attract expat pilots.......just like the ones HK Airlines attracts.
Once again, I ask : DO YOU REALLY THINK KA/CX WOULD PAY US WHAT THEY DO IF THEY DID NOT HAVE TO ?
I can earn nearly double here than what I would earn as a skipper with an LCC back home, take away the housing and there Is no way in hell I, or a stack of other guys, would have moved here.
You are not going to get people listen to your side of the argument, when time and again HKID cards are mentioned whilst skipping over the fact that no matter how long we live here IT WILL NEVER BE OUR TRUE HOME. End of story.
Quadspeed is right, remove all the allowances and the pay will still be good enough to attract expat pilots.......just like the ones HK Airlines attracts.
Once again, I ask : DO YOU REALLY THINK KA/CX WOULD PAY US WHAT THEY DO IF THEY DID NOT HAVE TO ?
I can earn nearly double here than what I would earn as a skipper with an LCC back home, take away the housing and there Is no way in hell I, or a stack of other guys, would have moved here.
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As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place, pay rises are generally to keep up with the cost of living and in some cases, as recently, changes in exchange rates.
Guys on bases getting bypass pay. Or guys fighting for extensions. Or DEFO's. Or ASL. Or B scale vs. A scale. It's all the same. Some of those are the same folks who will say cadets don't deserve one iota of extra allowances.
Or think about it this way. You came to this country simply because you chose not to stick it out as an S/O on that 'great Australian airline'. Or you simply couldn't get into that 'great Australian airline' and can't stand flying for LCC's, so you bent your arse backwards so you can come here. By your own volition.
So in that respect, you think a local lad without Australian residency can get into Qantas? Or BA, LH, etc. for that matter.
Opportunities for some are much more lopsided than others.
What poppy cock you write.
Quite a lot of CX Crew CHOSE to come here over staying in their own country, they didn't even bother to apply to their own Airlines. CX has or rather was the Airline of choice for a lot.
Now bugger off.
Quite a lot of CX Crew CHOSE to come here over staying in their own country, they didn't even bother to apply to their own Airlines. CX has or rather was the Airline of choice for a lot.
Now bugger off.
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As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place