SCMP article re: local v expat terms
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SCMP article re: local v expat terms
Surprisingly, nothing on PPRUNE regarding the article in SCMP regarding local COS versus Expat COS in KA and CX.
Of course a completely balanced
story about how CX/KA are basically discriminating against locals by paying them up to half the amount paid to expats ( of course this is only true if an expat rents an expensive apartment or buys one ).
I did not personally see the article but it apparently goes along the discrimination line ( which it reports is against CX/KA policy ), and there is a bit of a spiel from a KA rep who says they need to pay more to attract o/s pilots due to lack of local pilots etc.
So I thought I would open the batting and ask :
1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )
2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?
3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?
I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )
Running to bunker ................................
Of course a completely balanced
story about how CX/KA are basically discriminating against locals by paying them up to half the amount paid to expats ( of course this is only true if an expat rents an expensive apartment or buys one ).I did not personally see the article but it apparently goes along the discrimination line ( which it reports is against CX/KA policy ), and there is a bit of a spiel from a KA rep who says they need to pay more to attract o/s pilots due to lack of local pilots etc.
So I thought I would open the batting and ask :
1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )
2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?
3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?
I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )
Running to bunker ................................
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i think the case is not for cadets!
its the case where a few pilots invested paid up front themselves get all the required training and hours the "routine way" PPL CPL as an instructor, regional flying in ANOTHER Country then applied KA but were given a "LOCAL" terms.
just that these pilots also have HKID but were given LOCAL terms is the discrimination filed against. NOT for CADETS. THESE SCMP subjected pilots also have the right to work elsewhere before joining KA.
its the case where a few pilots invested paid up front themselves get all the required training and hours the "routine way" PPL CPL as an instructor, regional flying in ANOTHER Country then applied KA but were given a "LOCAL" terms.
just that these pilots also have HKID but were given LOCAL terms is the discrimination filed against. NOT for CADETS. THESE SCMP subjected pilots also have the right to work elsewhere before joining KA.
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Oh D@mn,
I don't know which company you work for, either way...
CX currently takes on cadets who are Permanent Residents, Residents and will probably shortly be introducing the cadet program to those you call 'expat off the street' (that in itself a contradictory term!)
Not only that, they have also taken people (expat or otherwise) 'off the street' and paying them $XXX,XXX HKD to be train as instructors and giving them a seniority number whilst working as an instructor in ADL, these people potentially have ZERO experience before starting their course and will be offered employment on full expat terms once they return to HK!!!
You are correct that we take the RHS as S/Os at KA (not JFO) with not much more than 200hrs. But what happens when we get the same highly regarded 2500hrs that you had when you joined, which would have all been on 320/330's no less, do we automatically get the package you're on? Are you willing to bet your expat allowances on the fact that there are plenty of locals with more experience than their expat colleagues but are still discriminated against because they are classed as 'local'?
Finally, I don't know if you mingle with the lower class you refer to as locals, but you will find many KA and CX locals hail from all over the world.
Sorry Fooey, its not personal, but you put it out there so I had to vent!
I don't know which company you work for, either way...
CX currently takes on cadets who are Permanent Residents, Residents and will probably shortly be introducing the cadet program to those you call 'expat off the street' (that in itself a contradictory term!)
Not only that, they have also taken people (expat or otherwise) 'off the street' and paying them $XXX,XXX HKD to be train as instructors and giving them a seniority number whilst working as an instructor in ADL, these people potentially have ZERO experience before starting their course and will be offered employment on full expat terms once they return to HK!!!
You are correct that we take the RHS as S/Os at KA (not JFO) with not much more than 200hrs. But what happens when we get the same highly regarded 2500hrs that you had when you joined, which would have all been on 320/330's no less, do we automatically get the package you're on? Are you willing to bet your expat allowances on the fact that there are plenty of locals with more experience than their expat colleagues but are still discriminated against because they are classed as 'local'?
Finally, I don't know if you mingle with the lower class you refer to as locals, but you will find many KA and CX locals hail from all over the world.
Sorry Fooey, its not personal, but you put it out there so I had to vent!
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Well if you're so aggrieved 14th month, why didnt you take yourself off to a flying school and then work your way up the ranks like we did and then qualify for your coveted CX housing. You are the type of person to say "you knew what you were in for when you signed" and this i'm afraid applies to you also. Case closed! 
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HKfooey, read with interest your points about that SCMP script. Might I chuck in a few pennies to consider:
<1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )>
- Consider the amount than an expat will make over the course of a career at any airline here vs. a local with the current COS in place. The initial investment that the companies make training a cadet is well made up in the space of several years from the cost saving of the extra benefits that the expats would otherwise get, hence the drive to fill up the recruitment quota for both KA and CX cadetships. Might it not be fair to say that after a cadet serves several years and produces a given turnover for the company that makes up for the training costs (forgive me for not quantifying but numbers are not my forte, perhaps someone else can?), and provided that they pass all the requisite checks/exams/interviews as every other pilot must do to preserve their position, that they should be entitled to the same monthly remuneration as the next guy doing the same job, regardless of their background?
2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?
- Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to bananas? The screening process for DE applicants vs. ab initio starts on different tangents. Granted, 2500 hour applicants have to demonstrate a proficiency commensurate with their experience, but consider that a 0 hour guy has to demonstrate their potential to fulfill a very intensive 14 month course and then some, to obtain a minimum licensing requirement, which most DE applicants would have had years to complete prior to even their first job scud running cheques. Thereafter, their performance is eventually graded to the same standard as anyone else in the company (certainly before they are released to line as an FO). Besides, those 2500 hours might have been on something with bigger cojones than your average ADL fly swat but not necessarily with a turbine. Would it not be fair to say then that cadets and non turbine (though experienced) DE applicants would both have to be educated to understand and get a feel for jet a/c and hence, are starting from pretty much the same page?
<3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?>
- Despite the bitching that we all hear coming from the company reps having to shell out more to attract people from abroad, I can safely say that the vast majority of locals would never want expat Ts&Cs to be downgraded to a local equivalent. There is not one local I personally know who wants to see any of their colleagues' conditions diminish, however they are questioning the validity of their own contracts with regards to performing the same duties as the next person and basically getting paid half the amount, despite also having children to educate, a wife's bag habit to support and rent/mortgage to pay. Most recognise the requirement to fulfill an obligation to recoup their training costs but why should these obligations be stretched out over the course of potentially a 30 year career? I challenge anyone to deny the disparity in equality there.
<I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )>
I believe this has happened to an individual who is no longer with us and is in fact is in command of the speed demons over at HKE. In his case, it was a blatant stab on the company's part at sensibility and respect for an applicant's right to the same Ts&Cs as those who were coming in with requisite DE experience levels.
And as a final thought, I have heard on the line from a few about how the cadets deserve what they have because of the opportunity presented to them by the two host airlines, that others joining from overseas have had to toil for years to get to (i.e. the right hand seat of a twin aisled jet). For the record, I went through the cadetship but I had also previously paid my way through to a frozen ATPL and earning food stamp pay doing shuttle runs in rickety buckets of ****. I would gladly have toiled just as much, however political borders being what they are, getting employed long term by anyone short of colombian drug runners as a foreigner was an impossibility. So the concept of opportunity for locals vs. expats runs both ways; few expats have the opportunity to join widebody airlines without requisite hours, but few locals have the opportunity for long stay in countries that have a system for building those flight hours. There is a sob story on every side but in the end, everyone has to perform to pass their RT/PCs for years to come.
Soapbox dismantled......air raid siren on stby, knowing full well that opinions differ vastly in this colourful world.
Lite
<1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )>
- Consider the amount than an expat will make over the course of a career at any airline here vs. a local with the current COS in place. The initial investment that the companies make training a cadet is well made up in the space of several years from the cost saving of the extra benefits that the expats would otherwise get, hence the drive to fill up the recruitment quota for both KA and CX cadetships. Might it not be fair to say that after a cadet serves several years and produces a given turnover for the company that makes up for the training costs (forgive me for not quantifying but numbers are not my forte, perhaps someone else can?), and provided that they pass all the requisite checks/exams/interviews as every other pilot must do to preserve their position, that they should be entitled to the same monthly remuneration as the next guy doing the same job, regardless of their background?
2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?
- Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to bananas? The screening process for DE applicants vs. ab initio starts on different tangents. Granted, 2500 hour applicants have to demonstrate a proficiency commensurate with their experience, but consider that a 0 hour guy has to demonstrate their potential to fulfill a very intensive 14 month course and then some, to obtain a minimum licensing requirement, which most DE applicants would have had years to complete prior to even their first job scud running cheques. Thereafter, their performance is eventually graded to the same standard as anyone else in the company (certainly before they are released to line as an FO). Besides, those 2500 hours might have been on something with bigger cojones than your average ADL fly swat but not necessarily with a turbine. Would it not be fair to say then that cadets and non turbine (though experienced) DE applicants would both have to be educated to understand and get a feel for jet a/c and hence, are starting from pretty much the same page?
<3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?>
- Despite the bitching that we all hear coming from the company reps having to shell out more to attract people from abroad, I can safely say that the vast majority of locals would never want expat Ts&Cs to be downgraded to a local equivalent. There is not one local I personally know who wants to see any of their colleagues' conditions diminish, however they are questioning the validity of their own contracts with regards to performing the same duties as the next person and basically getting paid half the amount, despite also having children to educate, a wife's bag habit to support and rent/mortgage to pay. Most recognise the requirement to fulfill an obligation to recoup their training costs but why should these obligations be stretched out over the course of potentially a 30 year career? I challenge anyone to deny the disparity in equality there.
<I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )>
I believe this has happened to an individual who is no longer with us and is in fact is in command of the speed demons over at HKE. In his case, it was a blatant stab on the company's part at sensibility and respect for an applicant's right to the same Ts&Cs as those who were coming in with requisite DE experience levels.
And as a final thought, I have heard on the line from a few about how the cadets deserve what they have because of the opportunity presented to them by the two host airlines, that others joining from overseas have had to toil for years to get to (i.e. the right hand seat of a twin aisled jet). For the record, I went through the cadetship but I had also previously paid my way through to a frozen ATPL and earning food stamp pay doing shuttle runs in rickety buckets of ****. I would gladly have toiled just as much, however political borders being what they are, getting employed long term by anyone short of colombian drug runners as a foreigner was an impossibility. So the concept of opportunity for locals vs. expats runs both ways; few expats have the opportunity to join widebody airlines without requisite hours, but few locals have the opportunity for long stay in countries that have a system for building those flight hours. There is a sob story on every side but in the end, everyone has to perform to pass their RT/PCs for years to come.
Soapbox dismantled......air raid siren on stby, knowing full well that opinions differ vastly in this colourful world.
Lite
Last edited by Mullah Lite; 24th Feb 2009 at 16:51.
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Where should I start...
I personally have no problem for expat to earn whatever package that they are earning but it is the arrogant attitude from the expat who thinks they deserve what they deserve that drives most of those who are on local COS nuts.
First let me rebutt some points brought forward by our original poster...
It is not discrimination for not paying to train an expat... HK law say explicitly that it is not illegal to discriminate against others not in HK... so not paying for the training cost for someone "off the street" from let say Australia or USA or whereever else, is perfectly legal in HK! However if CX only hires Chinese and not Indian, Japanese, Black or Caucasian who has HK resident status, then CX is discriminating. In this case, CX is not doing that.
It is perfectly legal for KA to do that... any JFO, even with as little as 200hrs has met all HKCAD requirements to qualify to perform their duty as an JFO at KA. So it is 100% not discriminating. It all depends on HKCAD requirements, because aftertall, they are the air regulating body for any HK airline.
Yes... you leave because you think the CX offer a package that outweights your inconvenience, that's why you are here, is it not? So if your argument is valid... why do you think that it is not the case for some cadet who happens to have HK resident status but in fact are from Australia, USA, Canada, UK, France, South Africa, Japan, etc etc... so are you really discriminating against them?
So overall... there is no point to argue with the original poster really... soon reality will have to set in for many of the expat in CX that the laws in HK are indeed changing, albeit slowly but it is changing... With the latest Race Discrimination Ordinance that will come into play later this year. There are a few things that CX will need to resolve.
One particular is the following:
“It is unlawful for an employer, in the case of a person employed by that employer at an establishment in Hong Kong, to discriminate against that employee (based on Race, Color, ethic origin, and others as stated on the Ordinance Section 2)–
a) in the terms of employment which the employer affords that employee;
b) in the way the employer affords the employee access to opportunities for promotion, transfer or training, or to any other benefits, facilities or services, or by refusing or deliberately omitting to afford the employee access to them; or
c) by dismissing the employee, or subjecting him or her to any other detriment”
This particular section, in simple English terms, it means that a company in HK can no longer offer EXPAT and LOCAL terms for the same job. This is also how the Equal Opportunity Commission explain it in their Q&A to the public. There are a few other obstacles for those who are already on Local terms, and there are a few points in this ordinance CX can argue otherwise, but it does looks like there is a strong case for the locals and lots of valid arguements for the locals in this new ordinance, and you will be sure that a lot of locals will soon be asking AOA and others to look into this issues as soon as the law comes into effect later this year.
I personally have no problem for expat to earn whatever package that they are earning but it is the arrogant attitude from the expat who thinks they deserve what they deserve that drives most of those who are on local COS nuts.
First let me rebutt some points brought forward by our original poster...
1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )
2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?
3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?
So overall... there is no point to argue with the original poster really... soon reality will have to set in for many of the expat in CX that the laws in HK are indeed changing, albeit slowly but it is changing... With the latest Race Discrimination Ordinance that will come into play later this year. There are a few things that CX will need to resolve.
One particular is the following:
“It is unlawful for an employer, in the case of a person employed by that employer at an establishment in Hong Kong, to discriminate against that employee (based on Race, Color, ethic origin, and others as stated on the Ordinance Section 2)–
a) in the terms of employment which the employer affords that employee;
b) in the way the employer affords the employee access to opportunities for promotion, transfer or training, or to any other benefits, facilities or services, or by refusing or deliberately omitting to afford the employee access to them; or
c) by dismissing the employee, or subjecting him or her to any other detriment”
This particular section, in simple English terms, it means that a company in HK can no longer offer EXPAT and LOCAL terms for the same job. This is also how the Equal Opportunity Commission explain it in their Q&A to the public. There are a few other obstacles for those who are already on Local terms, and there are a few points in this ordinance CX can argue otherwise, but it does looks like there is a strong case for the locals and lots of valid arguements for the locals in this new ordinance, and you will be sure that a lot of locals will soon be asking AOA and others to look into this issues as soon as the law comes into effect later this year.
Last edited by wowpeter; 24th Feb 2009 at 19:50.
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Very nice post Mullah Lite, you have some very good points and I completely agree.
If I work until I am 65, I would have served Cathay for 45 years as a pilot. I certainly believe that I would have repaid all my training costs with the savings in education and housing benefits within that time. I do believe we owe the company for the opportunity they have given us and to repay the training. But there does come a point where I believe we have repaid all of that.
Once in the company coming in as a cadet, we are starting on the same slate, and I mean as an equal. We have to tick the same boxes and achieve the same standard of operation.
Wowpeter has some good points as well, interesting post.
If I work until I am 65, I would have served Cathay for 45 years as a pilot. I certainly believe that I would have repaid all my training costs with the savings in education and housing benefits within that time. I do believe we owe the company for the opportunity they have given us and to repay the training. But there does come a point where I believe we have repaid all of that.
Once in the company coming in as a cadet, we are starting on the same slate, and I mean as an equal. We have to tick the same boxes and achieve the same standard of operation.
Wowpeter has some good points as well, interesting post.
Last edited by C172Driver; 24th Feb 2009 at 19:54.
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This issue is a farce! As an expat I'm here for the money. It's the only reason I came. If the package wasn't what it is I'd take less and live in my home country and suck in the fresh air.
If the chaps on local COS don't think they are being remunerated as they see fit then do what the rest of us have done and go elsewhere. If they don't have the 'tools' to do so then by default they are being paid appropriately here in HKG. After all the crap I and most expats have gone through in this industry to get to where we are today you'll have to forgive me for getting just a little ****ty when a handful bitch and moan about what they have 'signed up' for.
It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?
If the chaps on local COS don't think they are being remunerated as they see fit then do what the rest of us have done and go elsewhere. If they don't have the 'tools' to do so then by default they are being paid appropriately here in HKG. After all the crap I and most expats have gone through in this industry to get to where we are today you'll have to forgive me for getting just a little ****ty when a handful bitch and moan about what they have 'signed up' for.
It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?
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amazing
mullah lite, well said.
im amazed at how little some of the expat guys know about the cadets and the locals.
8888, there's nothing in the cadet program thats a free ride buddy
Minimums!
im amazed at how little some of the expat guys know about the cadets and the locals.
8888, there's nothing in the cadet program thats a free ride buddy
Minimums!
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Well perhaps 'free ride' is a relative thing but having your flying training entirely financed from scratch to the right hand seat of an airliner strikes me as a 'free ride'. I haven't questioned the calibre of candidates they choose nor the work that they put in to complete the course but once accepted if they meet the grade they do walk into a job at the top echelon of the industry.
As for others on local COS for differing reasons... These are the ones that 'signed up', eyes wide open, that I referred to earlier. If you sell your soul to the devil to jump the queue how do you expect to get it back years later when you do have extensive experience? CX/KA let you in with less experience than the normal entrant. That gave you a number of years, in some cases, head start accruing jet time on still good money which now allows you to look elsewhere to wherever the highest bidder resides should you not be happy with the status quo, financially speaking.
It basically comes down to demand and supply.
As for others on local COS for differing reasons... These are the ones that 'signed up', eyes wide open, that I referred to earlier. If you sell your soul to the devil to jump the queue how do you expect to get it back years later when you do have extensive experience? CX/KA let you in with less experience than the normal entrant. That gave you a number of years, in some cases, head start accruing jet time on still good money which now allows you to look elsewhere to wherever the highest bidder resides should you not be happy with the status quo, financially speaking.
It basically comes down to demand and supply.
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Top of the morning all
Quad 8, granted, timewise the cadetship is an accelerated program and results in sitting at the pointy end of things along with the guys who join as DE in the space of less than two years, whereas they might have spent the better part of ten clawing their way up the aviation ladder. The effort that expats have put in to arrive here at CX is certainly recognised by the LEPS but I can hardly say that the reverse is true. The idea that it is a matter of time served vs. reaching a given standard prevails as a banner for justifying the reduced pay package that a local should get. As a corollary to that line of thought, then surely someone with 10 years of fast jet military instruction ought to be paid more than someone coming in with 4000 hours of Q400 time. But I'm sure that idea would be met with great apprehension by anyone with a good head on their shoulders.
<It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?>
The cadetship is not a free ride for the individuals who get through and pay for it for the rest of their CX career in the form of, effectively, half the remuneration an expat would get. To have to complete a HKCAD ATPL in the space of 8 weeks is not a cakewalk, and to suggest that the LEPS don't have to put in the work to get to where everyone else has to be at, especially when they get their 4th bar, is nothing short of an insult. Yet a local captain remains on reduced terms despite shouldering the same burden of responsibility. Wowpeter made a remark about how this perception drives some of the LEPS 'nuts', and it doesn't take a neurosurgeon to figure out why. Something I cannot understand is why it serves the moral interest of some to see their local counterparts receive less than they do just because a similar opportunity to join such a program was not open to them in the first place. If that's the case then someone had better get on the issue of the Instructor's Course happening down at ADL at the moment, because those guys will be starting on the CX seniority list 4 years ahead of actually even sitting in a CX widebody whilst farting around in a G115-b for their fixed tenure there, before coming back on, that's right, full expat terms.
EngineOut, I take your point but having been down both routes (saving up to pay for my own licenses thereafter riding rustbuckets and doing the FTA thing) I don't think it's fair to say that FTA was a walk in the park. The pressure to perform in such a short period of time is not an easy task and to have some of our colleagues diminish the weight of that is what I think most LEPS find difficult to deal with. Surely the reciprocity in the recognition of work that everyone does to fulfill their careers here at CX/KA is a small thing to ask? I recognise as do you that the cadetship serves as a cost saving measure for the company and hence its primary existence as such, but surely it would be a matter of equality to allow a local the same anything as an expat after they have fulfilled a given financial obligation to the company. Nobody is asking for a free ride here.
Lite
Quad 8, granted, timewise the cadetship is an accelerated program and results in sitting at the pointy end of things along with the guys who join as DE in the space of less than two years, whereas they might have spent the better part of ten clawing their way up the aviation ladder. The effort that expats have put in to arrive here at CX is certainly recognised by the LEPS but I can hardly say that the reverse is true. The idea that it is a matter of time served vs. reaching a given standard prevails as a banner for justifying the reduced pay package that a local should get. As a corollary to that line of thought, then surely someone with 10 years of fast jet military instruction ought to be paid more than someone coming in with 4000 hours of Q400 time. But I'm sure that idea would be met with great apprehension by anyone with a good head on their shoulders.
<It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?>
The cadetship is not a free ride for the individuals who get through and pay for it for the rest of their CX career in the form of, effectively, half the remuneration an expat would get. To have to complete a HKCAD ATPL in the space of 8 weeks is not a cakewalk, and to suggest that the LEPS don't have to put in the work to get to where everyone else has to be at, especially when they get their 4th bar, is nothing short of an insult. Yet a local captain remains on reduced terms despite shouldering the same burden of responsibility. Wowpeter made a remark about how this perception drives some of the LEPS 'nuts', and it doesn't take a neurosurgeon to figure out why. Something I cannot understand is why it serves the moral interest of some to see their local counterparts receive less than they do just because a similar opportunity to join such a program was not open to them in the first place. If that's the case then someone had better get on the issue of the Instructor's Course happening down at ADL at the moment, because those guys will be starting on the CX seniority list 4 years ahead of actually even sitting in a CX widebody whilst farting around in a G115-b for their fixed tenure there, before coming back on, that's right, full expat terms.
EngineOut, I take your point but having been down both routes (saving up to pay for my own licenses thereafter riding rustbuckets and doing the FTA thing) I don't think it's fair to say that FTA was a walk in the park. The pressure to perform in such a short period of time is not an easy task and to have some of our colleagues diminish the weight of that is what I think most LEPS find difficult to deal with. Surely the reciprocity in the recognition of work that everyone does to fulfill their careers here at CX/KA is a small thing to ask? I recognise as do you that the cadetship serves as a cost saving measure for the company and hence its primary existence as such, but surely it would be a matter of equality to allow a local the same anything as an expat after they have fulfilled a given financial obligation to the company. Nobody is asking for a free ride here.
Lite
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Hey, c'mon guys, some sensible well thought out posts, good debate for both sides, no emotive abuse..................are you trying to get us all kicked off PPRUNE 
The point about paying back any costs to CX/KA is a little moot as was pointed out, cadets accept the conditions in the 1st place, I would be interested to know how many guys would have accepted a CX/KA career " off the street " with zero flying hours and effectively no out of pocket expenses v the way most expats did it, that is somewhere in the vicinity of $500,00HKD outlay with absolutley no gaurantee of a job flying a bugsmasher around the outback let alone an airline job.
I for one, not being a gambler in the least, would have taken the cadet path.
It would also be interesting to note the difference in pay between " local terms " and most non-airline jobs, I don't exactly know the local COS but I can tell you I averaged $2000HKD/month for 5 years ( not a misprint ) and I was considered reasonably lucky to only take 5 years to get an airline job ( sure there are some that did it in less and lots that did it far tougher, inc guys/gals that never made it to airlines )
And yes, for the non cadet locals, that met the same requirements as any expat, I think it sucks.
The point about paying back any costs to CX/KA is a little moot as was pointed out, cadets accept the conditions in the 1st place, I would be interested to know how many guys would have accepted a CX/KA career " off the street " with zero flying hours and effectively no out of pocket expenses v the way most expats did it, that is somewhere in the vicinity of $500,00HKD outlay with absolutley no gaurantee of a job flying a bugsmasher around the outback let alone an airline job.
I for one, not being a gambler in the least, would have taken the cadet path.
It would also be interesting to note the difference in pay between " local terms " and most non-airline jobs, I don't exactly know the local COS but I can tell you I averaged $2000HKD/month for 5 years ( not a misprint ) and I was considered reasonably lucky to only take 5 years to get an airline job ( sure there are some that did it in less and lots that did it far tougher, inc guys/gals that never made it to airlines )
And yes, for the non cadet locals, that met the same requirements as any expat, I think it sucks.
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EXEZY,
Thanks for your insight, may I point you further up the page, as you will find this post was not started by me! Wouldn't you be aggrieved if someone told you you're not worth the same as a colleague doing the same job in the same company because of where you're from or because you did your training at a different flight school? Not only that, last time I checked, not all the expat working at CX/KA went through the self-sponsored route that you so admire. Many were ex cadets elsewhere or ex military. Does that mean because someone paid for their training they should be on local terms? I know what I signed for but doesn't mean I agree with it, especially when it stares in the face of discrimination. If you can tell me that you've had a job where you were clearly discriminated against and offered a package less that half of your peers because of the travel documents you hold, then I am all ears!
And again, I don't necessarily agree cadets should be on equal terms from the outset, but maybe after SO/JFO phase, or when they've got their ATPLs. When they have gained the necessary experience to have qualified for a direct entry job. As you put it EXEZY, "Work your way up the ranks like we did"
HongKongFooey, your point about those taking time to getting into the airlines is also applicable to those trying to become a cadet. There are plenty of people out there who have tried for years to get into the program, and even self sponsored their own training in order to achieve that goal. And its not only endemic in your choosen route that people don't make it into the airlines. Just because you work with those who did make it through and are sitting beside you in the cockpit. There are annually thousands of appilcants for just a few dozen places on the cadet program. So, to quote above "theres no such thing as a free ride"
Thanks for your insight, may I point you further up the page, as you will find this post was not started by me! Wouldn't you be aggrieved if someone told you you're not worth the same as a colleague doing the same job in the same company because of where you're from or because you did your training at a different flight school? Not only that, last time I checked, not all the expat working at CX/KA went through the self-sponsored route that you so admire. Many were ex cadets elsewhere or ex military. Does that mean because someone paid for their training they should be on local terms? I know what I signed for but doesn't mean I agree with it, especially when it stares in the face of discrimination. If you can tell me that you've had a job where you were clearly discriminated against and offered a package less that half of your peers because of the travel documents you hold, then I am all ears!
And again, I don't necessarily agree cadets should be on equal terms from the outset, but maybe after SO/JFO phase, or when they've got their ATPLs. When they have gained the necessary experience to have qualified for a direct entry job. As you put it EXEZY, "Work your way up the ranks like we did"
HongKongFooey, your point about those taking time to getting into the airlines is also applicable to those trying to become a cadet. There are plenty of people out there who have tried for years to get into the program, and even self sponsored their own training in order to achieve that goal. And its not only endemic in your choosen route that people don't make it into the airlines. Just because you work with those who did make it through and are sitting beside you in the cockpit. There are annually thousands of appilcants for just a few dozen places on the cadet program. So, to quote above "theres no such thing as a free ride"
Last edited by 14MonthInterview; 25th Feb 2009 at 02:12. Reason: Additions
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This can of worms reopened is great for fishing. Gets something hooked every time, myself included.
Just going to nibble at the bait one more time before retiring to my bottom feeding grounds. It's actually written in the training contract that you sign for ADL that there is no guarantee of being hired by CX. True that the probability of not being hired is remote but it has happened more than once and none of the guys that I know who have met that misfortune are still flying by geographic design (i.e. they can't work anywhere else to build up their hours, holding only BNO/SAR passports). An unfortunate twist by nature of their birthright..but I think it serves to highlight that nothing is guaranteed for locals either.
But since we all clamour about how so few of us get the big picture, why not illuminate the fact that any division still persisting is because both companies are adept at playing at playing that deck of cards. I-deserve-this-because and you-deserve-that-because falls neatly into the corporate master plan. Idealistic as it might be I think advocating one COS for everybody across the board is a good umbrella to start resolving the other issues that harangue the pilot community.
Fiinal two cents. Maybe.
Lite
Just going to nibble at the bait one more time before retiring to my bottom feeding grounds. It's actually written in the training contract that you sign for ADL that there is no guarantee of being hired by CX. True that the probability of not being hired is remote but it has happened more than once and none of the guys that I know who have met that misfortune are still flying by geographic design (i.e. they can't work anywhere else to build up their hours, holding only BNO/SAR passports). An unfortunate twist by nature of their birthright..but I think it serves to highlight that nothing is guaranteed for locals either.
But since we all clamour about how so few of us get the big picture, why not illuminate the fact that any division still persisting is because both companies are adept at playing at playing that deck of cards. I-deserve-this-because and you-deserve-that-because falls neatly into the corporate master plan. Idealistic as it might be I think advocating one COS for everybody across the board is a good umbrella to start resolving the other issues that harangue the pilot community.
Fiinal two cents. Maybe.
Lite
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how come everybody are targeting the cadets local terms?!?
the SCMP post is not FOR the cadets. its for the lads whom went thru your so called HARSH route flying career ladder as per the average expats whom went thru GA... then applied in KA/CX and landed in a job. ONLY becoz they had a HK ID card. they were given LOCAL TERMS!! thats the discriminating issue.
why are some expats are being so crossed about cadets anyway... ?? all the renumeration packages come out as company expenses. not out of your pocket. so all we are hoping is to get a partial of what you are getting, thats all.
the SCMP post is not FOR the cadets. its for the lads whom went thru your so called HARSH route flying career ladder as per the average expats whom went thru GA... then applied in KA/CX and landed in a job. ONLY becoz they had a HK ID card. they were given LOCAL TERMS!! thats the discriminating issue.
why are some expats are being so crossed about cadets anyway... ?? all the renumeration packages come out as company expenses. not out of your pocket. so all we are hoping is to get a partial of what you are getting, thats all.
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Heko,
I agree with you completely. However the discussion I was trying give was also from the company's perspective as to why they pay cadets less, or run a cadet program at all, and the fact that they knew there wan no housing when they started. It did diverge a little as to the difference in backgrounds from cadets/expats, which were trying to point out the advantage of the cadet program and low risk they take, and yet now they are entitled to go and earn an expat package with another airline not based in HK; just like we have moved away from our homelands, family and friends.
As I said before, I would not be here if there was not the expat package, which is exactly why it exists. CX PILOTS ON BASE DO NOT GET EXPAT BENEFITS. You need to compare yourselves to that. Local pilots are living at home, just like the guys on a base.
I agree with you completely. However the discussion I was trying give was also from the company's perspective as to why they pay cadets less, or run a cadet program at all, and the fact that they knew there wan no housing when they started. It did diverge a little as to the difference in backgrounds from cadets/expats, which were trying to point out the advantage of the cadet program and low risk they take, and yet now they are entitled to go and earn an expat package with another airline not based in HK; just like we have moved away from our homelands, family and friends.
As I said before, I would not be here if there was not the expat package, which is exactly why it exists. CX PILOTS ON BASE DO NOT GET EXPAT BENEFITS. You need to compare yourselves to that. Local pilots are living at home, just like the guys on a base.
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Therein is the nub of the whole thing. I'll repeat it "CX pilots on base DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT get expat benefits.
A local pilot is on base, at home, in his/her birth place of abode with his/her family and friends, not having uprooted his/her kids/spouse et al !!!!! You are at home ergo you are not an expat therefore no expat benefits.
The fact is if a Hong Kong local "on base" was paid expat benefits then he/she would be being paid more than local "on base" pilots who are locals in the USA, AUS, UK etc.
As much as some might like to play the race/discrimination card, that claim just doesn't stack up. Whether you are Caucasian, Asian, Martian or a Venusian and have 1 flying hour or 1 million flying hours it is immaterial. It is a "living away from home" payment.
If you want expat benefits, then become an expat before applying for them.
A local pilot is on base, at home, in his/her birth place of abode with his/her family and friends, not having uprooted his/her kids/spouse et al !!!!! You are at home ergo you are not an expat therefore no expat benefits.
The fact is if a Hong Kong local "on base" was paid expat benefits then he/she would be being paid more than local "on base" pilots who are locals in the USA, AUS, UK etc.
As much as some might like to play the race/discrimination card, that claim just doesn't stack up. Whether you are Caucasian, Asian, Martian or a Venusian and have 1 flying hour or 1 million flying hours it is immaterial. It is a "living away from home" payment.
If you want expat benefits, then become an expat before applying for them.
Last edited by Hoofharted; 25th Feb 2009 at 04:28.
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EO
i understand your debate. but for the company's bean counters, yes, we cadets are the long term financial savers. We signed up what was given. We graduate from FTA, but are not guaranteed a job. like the recent graduates of KA cadets are sitting at home twiddling their fingers.
the numbers wise
let's say for the Housing ONLY.
a DESO get a housing package of an approx 35k a month for the first year.
lets assume it does not change for the first 3 years as a SO in the CX's case.
35k x 12 months = HKD$420k x 3 yrs = HKD$1.26M
very close if not more than an ab-intio training package pay already, correct?
3 years of a cadet would already broke even compared to an expat looking at housing alone. any advance from SO would save the company money. so~ all we are trying to fight for is some housing allowance, local Capt get 24k in CX for "housing" fixed rate, we would like to see 12k for FO, maybe 6k for JFO thats all. Not too much to ask for from the company. we fully respect what you are giving up, away from the family etc. but i would also like to point out that many of our local term's lads/gals have their family elsewhere... living in HKG on their own too.
i understand your debate. but for the company's bean counters, yes, we cadets are the long term financial savers. We signed up what was given. We graduate from FTA, but are not guaranteed a job. like the recent graduates of KA cadets are sitting at home twiddling their fingers.
the numbers wise
let's say for the Housing ONLY.
a DESO get a housing package of an approx 35k a month for the first year.
lets assume it does not change for the first 3 years as a SO in the CX's case.
35k x 12 months = HKD$420k x 3 yrs = HKD$1.26M
very close if not more than an ab-intio training package pay already, correct?
3 years of a cadet would already broke even compared to an expat looking at housing alone. any advance from SO would save the company money. so~ all we are trying to fight for is some housing allowance, local Capt get 24k in CX for "housing" fixed rate, we would like to see 12k for FO, maybe 6k for JFO thats all. Not too much to ask for from the company. we fully respect what you are giving up, away from the family etc. but i would also like to point out that many of our local term's lads/gals have their family elsewhere... living in HKG on their own too.
