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The anomaly may be because the ASL joiners on 01/01/2000 had a clause saying that they would only be made redundant if we started parking freighters, a clause that seemed relevant during sars!
If you're concerned, write to one of our office wallahs asking for a copy of the redundancy list.
If you're concerned, write to one of our office wallahs asking for a copy of the redundancy list.
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Just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons...
What happens given that the extendees on the freighter are on contract. Does this mean that permanent employees can be made redundant and the contractors stay as there contract hasn't expired, not to mention the pay advantage the company has.
What happens given that the extendees on the freighter are on contract. Does this mean that permanent employees can be made redundant and the contractors stay as there contract hasn't expired, not to mention the pay advantage the company has.
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Do you guys actually think that Cathay would furlough in seniority? You actually think they would waste the millions that it would require to go through a seniority training shuffle, just to say they did it in seniority order? 
If you answered yes to the above, then let me ask you how much you want for a bag of the stuff so I can smoke it too.
First of all, depending on how deep it goes, a seniority furlough would mean that we would loose all our freighter Captains. Ex-ASL, Re-treads, Dragonair, Oasis. The whole lot. So now the company would have to retrain all the freighter captains from eligible crew. This would creat vacancies all over the system, in different types. Which creates training cycles for all those replacements.
Then, they would also furlough the DFOs on the passenger fleet. That means that they would have to train a boat load of 777 FOs, being that is the only growing fleet. I beleive the training task is already pretty high due to expansion, so increasing it is in the company's best interest.
I don't think it will come to furloughs, but if it does, you can be sure of one thing - It will be done based on where the cuts are needed, not in seniority. If Cathay finds itself with too many freighter crews, it will make redundant in the freighter only. They might allow base transfers, but don't expect the company to move you. It will be an "extreme circumstance" that will be funded out of your own pocket.
And it will start at the bases. Even though those crews are technically cheaper than HK crews, do you know how expensive it would be to furlough a HK pilot? A based pilot can be furloughed with a notice in the mail 3 months ahead of time. That is it. A HK pilot would also require repatriation and moving allowance back to home country, as well as sorting out any property requirements. Some rental clauses have penalties for early cancellation. Besides, you furlough a based guy, you can easily replace him with a HK based guy. If you furlough a HK based guy, you can't replace them with a based guy.
Don't get me wrong, I think that it is crap and that the company should do everything possible to honor seniority during a furlough. But I'm just being realistic. Reminds me of when the Classic started being removed from Europe and they were presented with the problem of having all those guys based there. The company found themselves with a rostering problem with getting these guys to fly the regional trips out of HK. Their reaction was to just say that "we know that this is against the COS, but these are extreme circumstances".
I can guarantee you that the same would be done during any sort of furlough situation.
If you answered yes to the above, then let me ask you how much you want for a bag of the stuff so I can smoke it too.
First of all, depending on how deep it goes, a seniority furlough would mean that we would loose all our freighter Captains. Ex-ASL, Re-treads, Dragonair, Oasis. The whole lot. So now the company would have to retrain all the freighter captains from eligible crew. This would creat vacancies all over the system, in different types. Which creates training cycles for all those replacements.
Then, they would also furlough the DFOs on the passenger fleet. That means that they would have to train a boat load of 777 FOs, being that is the only growing fleet. I beleive the training task is already pretty high due to expansion, so increasing it is in the company's best interest.
I don't think it will come to furloughs, but if it does, you can be sure of one thing - It will be done based on where the cuts are needed, not in seniority. If Cathay finds itself with too many freighter crews, it will make redundant in the freighter only. They might allow base transfers, but don't expect the company to move you. It will be an "extreme circumstance" that will be funded out of your own pocket.
And it will start at the bases. Even though those crews are technically cheaper than HK crews, do you know how expensive it would be to furlough a HK pilot? A based pilot can be furloughed with a notice in the mail 3 months ahead of time. That is it. A HK pilot would also require repatriation and moving allowance back to home country, as well as sorting out any property requirements. Some rental clauses have penalties for early cancellation. Besides, you furlough a based guy, you can easily replace him with a HK based guy. If you furlough a HK based guy, you can't replace them with a based guy.
Don't get me wrong, I think that it is crap and that the company should do everything possible to honor seniority during a furlough. But I'm just being realistic. Reminds me of when the Classic started being removed from Europe and they were presented with the problem of having all those guys based there. The company found themselves with a rostering problem with getting these guys to fly the regional trips out of HK. Their reaction was to just say that "we know that this is against the COS, but these are extreme circumstances".
I can guarantee you that the same would be done during any sort of furlough situation.
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Whilst I agree with your sentiment Sqwak7700, may I point out the following, which might actually work in the favour of seniority.
- As you correctly point out, we would lose our freighter DECs (ASL 2009, Oasis, KA, etc), however, isn't it the freighter where we are hurting the most for excess crew? In fact, it has been suggested that the voluntary unpaid leave was actually aimed mostly at the freighter, and to a much smaller extent the 777. If you talk to the other fleets, especially the Airbus, most guys are working so hard, that they don't want their mates taking unpaid leave, because it will overload the rest of the guys.
- Furloughing DEFOs on the passenger fleet could well happen also, because as you say, it is easier to let go of a based guy rather than a HK pilot. Remember that all the DEFOs are based. On the issue of training, they've already committed to convert the Nth American crews to 777, so letting go of based DEFOs in seniority will not impact the operation. The same goes for Aust, where everyone on the passenger fleet is Airbus, so training issues don't come into it.
Europe might be a little bit messier, because there are different fleets to Europe, and a mix of freighter guys, and COS 08 unified scale (aka C-scale) to muddy the waters. however, it should not be insurmountable.
- As you correctly point out, we would lose our freighter DECs (ASL 2009, Oasis, KA, etc), however, isn't it the freighter where we are hurting the most for excess crew? In fact, it has been suggested that the voluntary unpaid leave was actually aimed mostly at the freighter, and to a much smaller extent the 777. If you talk to the other fleets, especially the Airbus, most guys are working so hard, that they don't want their mates taking unpaid leave, because it will overload the rest of the guys.
- Furloughing DEFOs on the passenger fleet could well happen also, because as you say, it is easier to let go of a based guy rather than a HK pilot. Remember that all the DEFOs are based. On the issue of training, they've already committed to convert the Nth American crews to 777, so letting go of based DEFOs in seniority will not impact the operation. The same goes for Aust, where everyone on the passenger fleet is Airbus, so training issues don't come into it.
Europe might be a little bit messier, because there are different fleets to Europe, and a mix of freighter guys, and COS 08 unified scale (aka C-scale) to muddy the waters. however, it should not be insurmountable.
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The Usual Worthless Drivel
I see that the uselessness and misinformation of these posts hasn't changed much.
If Cathay resorts to redundancies, which I highly doubt they will, it will be last in, first out. Period. In fact, I suggest that many of my colleagues are not interested in unpaid leave but will allow Cathay to pursue layoffs. We haven't had a payraise in years and much of that can be attributed to pilots continuing to come and do our jobs for less pay and benefits.
This idea of HK pilots being more difficult to get rid of is simply pie in the sky from some new joiner to HK. It is solely your problem if you are in deep hock for some depreciating flat in Tung Chung. All they are required to give you is 3 months salary in lieu. Quite frankly, the procedure to pursue an out of seniority redundancy on a base would be too costly for Cathay. The severance package would be huge, something that many of us would like to get. The Crofts case was an eyeopener for Cathay and believe me they don't want to go there again. There are just too many laws in the employees favour.
Don't plan your life based on some anonymous post like Pprune, ask someone outright for the proper answer. Unfortunately, many of our problems have stemmed from these anonymous posts.
I always said that if you cannot give your name it is worthless advice.
If Cathay resorts to redundancies, which I highly doubt they will, it will be last in, first out. Period. In fact, I suggest that many of my colleagues are not interested in unpaid leave but will allow Cathay to pursue layoffs. We haven't had a payraise in years and much of that can be attributed to pilots continuing to come and do our jobs for less pay and benefits.
This idea of HK pilots being more difficult to get rid of is simply pie in the sky from some new joiner to HK. It is solely your problem if you are in deep hock for some depreciating flat in Tung Chung. All they are required to give you is 3 months salary in lieu. Quite frankly, the procedure to pursue an out of seniority redundancy on a base would be too costly for Cathay. The severance package would be huge, something that many of us would like to get. The Crofts case was an eyeopener for Cathay and believe me they don't want to go there again. There are just too many laws in the employees favour.
Don't plan your life based on some anonymous post like Pprune, ask someone outright for the proper answer. Unfortunately, many of our problems have stemmed from these anonymous posts.
I always said that if you cannot give your name it is worthless advice.
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Sorry west, you guessed wrong on all. I think you misread my post. I was purely speculating on what I think CX will do, based on their behaviour when it comes to other, somtimes similar matters. You don't need to take it personal, I don't wish redundancy on anyone, especially any of my peers.
You shouldn't take posts on PPRUNE so personal, this is nothing but chit chat back and forth, that is all it is. I take everything I read in these forums with a grain of salt. I think we can all agree that no-one here wants anyone on the street, we are merely chatting on what we think will be the company's reaction in case redundancies are required.
Having said that, take a step back and look at the situation from a managers point of view, without any emotions and biases you might hold due to your position / rank. I don't wish that anyone gets furloughed, but, I think that if the situation came to it, Cathay would do what is good for Cathay, and that is usually the cheapest option.
Your reply was purely defensive, you really didn't offer a counter point to rebute my argument or prove me wrong, you just spewed your emotions and showed your fear - probably because you might actually think I'm right.
You shouldn't take posts on PPRUNE so personal, this is nothing but chit chat back and forth, that is all it is. I take everything I read in these forums with a grain of salt. I think we can all agree that no-one here wants anyone on the street, we are merely chatting on what we think will be the company's reaction in case redundancies are required.
Having said that, take a step back and look at the situation from a managers point of view, without any emotions and biases you might hold due to your position / rank. I don't wish that anyone gets furloughed, but, I think that if the situation came to it, Cathay would do what is good for Cathay, and that is usually the cheapest option.
Your reply was purely defensive, you really didn't offer a counter point to rebute my argument or prove me wrong, you just spewed your emotions and showed your fear - probably because you might actually think I'm right.
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This "redundancy" topic just shows how screwed up the hiring has been. When SOs are senior to Capts, thanks to DEC hiring among other reasons, and when plenty of available and qualified FOs would be willing to take those left seat jobs, it makes for a sad story. I hope it doesn't come to layoffs, there's no reasons for it at the moment anyway, but if it does it has to be in reverse seniority. 
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What Nonsense
For Sqwak7700 may I suggest that you are the one taking it personally. I certainly don't get the least bit emotional about anonymous posts. I just deal with the facts. And no, I don't think that you are the least bit right, nor I am I the least bit fearful for my job.
Yes, CX will always pursue the cheapest option for the benefit of the company. One would expect that of management. However, they have to be mindful of the laws that exist in the various jurisdictions worldwide. I draw your attention to the recent steep fine for cargo price fixing in the US and the recent lawsuit in favour of the FAU. CX might like to believe they are above the law but they are not.
We have a seniority system whether you believe it or not. And our contracts are based on last in, first out.
Perhaps you are a relative new joiner. Is that the problem?
Yes, CX will always pursue the cheapest option for the benefit of the company. One would expect that of management. However, they have to be mindful of the laws that exist in the various jurisdictions worldwide. I draw your attention to the recent steep fine for cargo price fixing in the US and the recent lawsuit in favour of the FAU. CX might like to believe they are above the law but they are not.
We have a seniority system whether you believe it or not. And our contracts are based on last in, first out.
Perhaps you are a relative new joiner. Is that the problem?
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It's in the COS
Go and read sect 32 Redundancy
I'm agree with WESTCOASTCAPT's interpretation
If I get made redundant before guys junior to me you can guarantee that I like many others will take action.
Strangely (for CX) this section of the COS is actually fairly clear in the way that it is written. I'm sure that they'd find a way to try to interpret it differently (ie termination due to a reason other than redundancy). Having said that there are enough law firms around the world who I reckon would take this on a NO WIN No FEE basis. Now I know that I won't get much out of the lawyers from this one, but the company would have to pay, that alone would be worth it.
When you consider the amounts that have to be paid out (6 months salary and full retirement fund)Do you really think the company could be bothered with out of order seniority dismissals after paying out these sums of money and then have the threat of law suits as well.
Second view - think like an accountant briefly - why take such a high salaries charge to the books, ie this would be real cashflow outgoing, when you are managing to convince people to take unpaid leave.
I'm agree with WESTCOASTCAPT's interpretation
If I get made redundant before guys junior to me you can guarantee that I like many others will take action.
Strangely (for CX) this section of the COS is actually fairly clear in the way that it is written. I'm sure that they'd find a way to try to interpret it differently (ie termination due to a reason other than redundancy). Having said that there are enough law firms around the world who I reckon would take this on a NO WIN No FEE basis. Now I know that I won't get much out of the lawyers from this one, but the company would have to pay, that alone would be worth it.
When you consider the amounts that have to be paid out (6 months salary and full retirement fund)Do you really think the company could be bothered with out of order seniority dismissals after paying out these sums of money and then have the threat of law suits as well.
Second view - think like an accountant briefly - why take such a high salaries charge to the books, ie this would be real cashflow outgoing, when you are managing to convince people to take unpaid leave.
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Squawk 7700 says
You shouldn't take posts on PPRuNe so personal, this is nothing but chit chat back and forth, that is all it is. I take everything I read in these forums with a grain of salt.
Yet 7700 you constantly belittle and insult ppruners that disagree with you in ant way. Take a look at your last 20 posts and you have insulted 90% of the people who put to print their thoughts etc on pprune. Hopefully you have changed a little and will debate subjects in a civil way and hopefully with less smilies i.e.
You shouldn't take posts on PPRuNe so personal, this is nothing but chit chat back and forth, that is all it is. I take everything I read in these forums with a grain of salt.
Yet 7700 you constantly belittle and insult ppruners that disagree with you in ant way. Take a look at your last 20 posts and you have insulted 90% of the people who put to print their thoughts etc on pprune. Hopefully you have changed a little and will debate subjects in a civil way and hopefully with less smilies i.e.
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..would everybody PLEASE calm down! Regardless of WHAT you think CX management are capable of, you can be assurred that when it comes to redundancy, they will scrupulacy adhere to the seniority list. Some of you are nothing short of hysterical. More to the point, CX will not be laying of anyone in the foreseeable future. As I have said before, when they start cancelling aircraft orders..THEN you can start getting worried. Until then, don't let them wind you up.
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Hhhhhmmmm....
Cathay puts aircraft orders on hold
By Raphael Minder in Hong Kong and Robin Kwong in Taipei
Published: November 28 2008 17:42 | Last updated: November 28 2008 17:42
Cathay Pacific announced cost-cutting measures on Friday, including the deferral of aircraft deliveries, as the Hong Kong-based airline faced a sharp slowdown in both passenger and cargo traffic.
The airline cut its forecast for 2009 passenger capacity growth to less than 1 per cent, from 6-7 per cent. Tony Tyler, Cathay’s chief executive, also warned that the financial crisis was having “a particularly severe” effect on freight, which accounts for about 30 per cent of its revenues.
As a result, the airline will ground two of its Boeing 747 cargo aircraft in the Californian desert and put on hold the HK$4.8bn (US$620m) construction of a Hong Kong cargo terminal. It will also offer cabin and cockpit crew unpaid leave next year.
Cathay has ordered 42 passenger and freighter aircraft from Boeing, originally scheduled to be delivered by 2012. Mr Tyler said the airline was talking to Boeing about deferring the deliveries and outstanding payments.
This week, Air France-KLM also announced that it would postpone taking delivery of new aircraft, a trend that is threatening Boeing and rival Airbus.
Jim Proulx, at Boeing Commercial Airplanes in Seattle, said several airline customers had moved their delivery dates but said the aircraft-maker was confident its $276bn-backlog of orders – the equivalent of seven years of sales – was a sufficient cushion to carry it through the downturn.
Mr Tyler indicated that more operational cuts might be required at Cathay given the difficult market conditions.
“We cannot see light at the end of the tunnel at this point,” he said.
The measures come less than a month after Cathay issued its second profit warning of the year, citing lower demand.
Cathay’s problems mirror those of airlines worldwide, but it is among the Asian carriers that are most vulnerable to falling business passenger traffic as a result of job cuts in the financial sector, as well as lower cargo traffic as Chinese manufacturing exports decline.
Earlier this month, David Turnbull, former chief executive of Cathay, told the Financial Times that cargo revenues for Asian airlines were likely to drop off after the Christmas shopping season and could fall as much as 20 per cent by the middle of next year.
The outlook for the Asian aviation sector has worsened rapidly, forcing rival airlines in India to discuss co-operation initiatives and two Chinese state-controlled airlines to seek emergency subsidies.
Separately, Malaysia Airlines reported on Friday that profit in the quarter ending September 30 fell 90 per cent to M$38.1m (US$10.5m), with flat revenues.
The Association of Asia Pacific Airlines recently forecast that capacity growth for Asian airlines would be flat next year compared with growth of 4-5 per cent this year.
Additional reporting by Hal Weitzman
By Raphael Minder in Hong Kong and Robin Kwong in Taipei
Published: November 28 2008 17:42 | Last updated: November 28 2008 17:42
Cathay Pacific announced cost-cutting measures on Friday, including the deferral of aircraft deliveries, as the Hong Kong-based airline faced a sharp slowdown in both passenger and cargo traffic.
The airline cut its forecast for 2009 passenger capacity growth to less than 1 per cent, from 6-7 per cent. Tony Tyler, Cathay’s chief executive, also warned that the financial crisis was having “a particularly severe” effect on freight, which accounts for about 30 per cent of its revenues.
As a result, the airline will ground two of its Boeing 747 cargo aircraft in the Californian desert and put on hold the HK$4.8bn (US$620m) construction of a Hong Kong cargo terminal. It will also offer cabin and cockpit crew unpaid leave next year.
Cathay has ordered 42 passenger and freighter aircraft from Boeing, originally scheduled to be delivered by 2012. Mr Tyler said the airline was talking to Boeing about deferring the deliveries and outstanding payments.
This week, Air France-KLM also announced that it would postpone taking delivery of new aircraft, a trend that is threatening Boeing and rival Airbus.
Jim Proulx, at Boeing Commercial Airplanes in Seattle, said several airline customers had moved their delivery dates but said the aircraft-maker was confident its $276bn-backlog of orders – the equivalent of seven years of sales – was a sufficient cushion to carry it through the downturn.
Mr Tyler indicated that more operational cuts might be required at Cathay given the difficult market conditions.
“We cannot see light at the end of the tunnel at this point,” he said.
The measures come less than a month after Cathay issued its second profit warning of the year, citing lower demand.
Cathay’s problems mirror those of airlines worldwide, but it is among the Asian carriers that are most vulnerable to falling business passenger traffic as a result of job cuts in the financial sector, as well as lower cargo traffic as Chinese manufacturing exports decline.
Earlier this month, David Turnbull, former chief executive of Cathay, told the Financial Times that cargo revenues for Asian airlines were likely to drop off after the Christmas shopping season and could fall as much as 20 per cent by the middle of next year.
The outlook for the Asian aviation sector has worsened rapidly, forcing rival airlines in India to discuss co-operation initiatives and two Chinese state-controlled airlines to seek emergency subsidies.
Separately, Malaysia Airlines reported on Friday that profit in the quarter ending September 30 fell 90 per cent to M$38.1m (US$10.5m), with flat revenues.
The Association of Asia Pacific Airlines recently forecast that capacity growth for Asian airlines would be flat next year compared with growth of 4-5 per cent this year.
Additional reporting by Hal Weitzman
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...I clearly said 'cancellation' of orders. A deferral is nothing more than a way to 'suggest' that there are problems without actually confirming that there are in fact serious problems. As I said, when CX actually cancels aircraft orders...then you can perhaps start to be concerned. Until then, don't waste a decent nights sleep worrying about it....
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Curiously, I find myself agreeing with ATY. They're using the slow down to rationalise fleets, getting the right pilots on the right types and the newer aircraft replacing the old. They have the current extension policy to cut costs in the short term if they have to and they're not keen to lose their "never furloughed" reputation.
I can understand people being worried if they're near the bottom of the list but there are many measures they'd prefer to use before the redundancy list comes into play.....IMHO!
I can understand people being worried if they're near the bottom of the list but there are many measures they'd prefer to use before the redundancy list comes into play.....IMHO!
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A Blast from the Past
Earlier this month, David Turnbull, former chief executive of Cathay, told the Financial Times that ............blah blah blah
Give me a break. What's next?? "no money in freight."???