CX LEPs.... it's time to join
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How ironic, it sounds more like YOU love yourself. Do the LEP's get 13th month? Housing allowance? Education allowance? Or is that saved for people just like you? How does it cost an expat more to live in HK than a LEP? They dont have kids to school, house payments, taxes??
They have the same costs as expats do, period. When did CX force you to move to HK and take this job? Why should you get extra pay? You do the same job as they do, therefore should get the same pay.
So get off your elitist high horse AMCS, and quit thinking you are better than them.
Wise up.
They have the same costs as expats do, period. When did CX force you to move to HK and take this job? Why should you get extra pay? You do the same job as they do, therefore should get the same pay.
So get off your elitist high horse AMCS, and quit thinking you are better than them.
Wise up.
oh man you are a old horse aren't you.
really 70 years old? You don't act it.
Let me spell it out for you bud. ( I know you're 70 and probably a bit sloooooww)
EXPATRIATE.
The LEP Pilot's are NOT EXPATS.
The EXPATS are EXPATS hence the name EXPATRIATE.
Following me so far?
Oh, and yes the LEP's DO get 13th month.
They just don't get the EXPAT allowances, why? good question old fella!!
Because......................wait for it............................
They are NOT EXPATS.
See, simple really.
Why do I get EXPAT allowances? because CX like a LOT of Asian Carriers cannot GROW their own Pilot's on coconut trees and need to ATTRACT experienced Pilot's like us EXPATS. Now to get us all to come thousands of miles from our home countries they need to make it attractive with a lifestyle we are accustomed to, hence EXPAT ALLOWANCES. I mean lets face it, if it wasn't for the money we wouldn't be here at all and CX management would have to fly the Aircraft themselves or ground the Airline.
Now it would be nice to pay the local this money too but they are LOCALS that were born here.
As I said before, but you've probably forgotten ( due to the old age thing )
Our own Cathay Pacific based Pilot's in their home country DO NOT GET EXPAT ALLOWANCES because.......................yep you got it............they are not EXPATS even though they do the same job.
It's not a hard concept to grasp is it buddy?
I imagine that you used to be part of the HK Aviation community once? I imagine you got EXPAT allowances over and above your local colleagues?
thought so.
really 70 years old? You don't act it.
Let me spell it out for you bud. ( I know you're 70 and probably a bit sloooooww)
EXPATRIATE.
The LEP Pilot's are NOT EXPATS.
The EXPATS are EXPATS hence the name EXPATRIATE.
Following me so far?
Oh, and yes the LEP's DO get 13th month.
They just don't get the EXPAT allowances, why? good question old fella!!
Because......................wait for it............................
They are NOT EXPATS.
See, simple really.
Why do I get EXPAT allowances? because CX like a LOT of Asian Carriers cannot GROW their own Pilot's on coconut trees and need to ATTRACT experienced Pilot's like us EXPATS. Now to get us all to come thousands of miles from our home countries they need to make it attractive with a lifestyle we are accustomed to, hence EXPAT ALLOWANCES. I mean lets face it, if it wasn't for the money we wouldn't be here at all and CX management would have to fly the Aircraft themselves or ground the Airline.
Now it would be nice to pay the local this money too but they are LOCALS that were born here.
As I said before, but you've probably forgotten ( due to the old age thing )
Our own Cathay Pacific based Pilot's in their home country DO NOT GET EXPAT ALLOWANCES because.......................yep you got it............they are not EXPATS even though they do the same job.
It's not a hard concept to grasp is it buddy?
I imagine that you used to be part of the HK Aviation community once? I imagine you got EXPAT allowances over and above your local colleagues?
thought so.
Last edited by ACMS; 10th Oct 2008 at 01:48.
Stop paying EXPAT allowances and see what happens to the HK economy then...................................
Not just in the Aviation industry...........
And not just in HK, China, Singapore, Malaysia, etc etc etc.
They want our skills? They PAY THE DOSH.
Simple SUPPLY AND DEMAND
Not just in the Aviation industry...........
And not just in HK, China, Singapore, Malaysia, etc etc etc.
They want our skills? They PAY THE DOSH.
Simple SUPPLY AND DEMAND
Join Date: May 2002
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ACMS, you are correct about expats BUT a large number of our newer LEP's are in reality expats.
They have access to a HKID card but have lived their entire lives (bar the first few months in most cases) in Australia or Canada.
Where do they fit into the picture then? If they take a base they get no allowances. If they stay in HKG they get no allowances. Hardly fair I would say.
Just because CX paid for their training shouldn't mean that they get no allowances for the next 40 years of their careers.
Oh, and by the way, I am not a local.
W2
They have access to a HKID card but have lived their entire lives (bar the first few months in most cases) in Australia or Canada.
Where do they fit into the picture then? If they take a base they get no allowances. If they stay in HKG they get no allowances. Hardly fair I would say.
Just because CX paid for their training shouldn't mean that they get no allowances for the next 40 years of their careers.
Oh, and by the way, I am not a local.
W2
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Just because CX paid for their training shouldn't mean that they get no allowances for the next 40 years of their careers.
CX doesn't always pay for their training. Know of 1 guy who is from Hong Kong, never lived anywhere else. Came to the U.S. to get his training, then got hired by CX. After a few months, he was called into the office and was told that he is in fact a "local" and not entitled to any allowances.
I agree it is difficult for the guys in that position.
Hey, if it was up to me we'd all be on A scale AND expat allowances.
If there's a crack someone will fall into it.
If we had more guys willing to join the Union then these cracks would be smaller.
Hey, if it was up to me we'd all be on A scale AND expat allowances.
If there's a crack someone will fall into it.
If we had more guys willing to join the Union then these cracks would be smaller.
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Hey, if it was up to me we'd all be on A scale AND expat allowances.
All it takes is to sack a few people and Cat D a few more and you're right in there with the big boys.
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ACMS is the exact reason why a lot of the LEPs don't wanna join the AOA. Expats thinking they're far more superior and only wanna use the number game to improve their own conditions. I was singling out the DEFO's in my other posting and got blasted for doing so, I really don't see how other AOA members are backing a even bigger and longer serving CX pilot group here while ACMS is singling them out. I hope these guys ain't taking the "oh it doesn't affect me anyway cause I'm an expat" appraoch, cause that would justify all the reasons why the LEPs don't join the AOA, and really makes me wonder if I've made a bad decision to join in the first place.
Yes CX did pay for training for the LEP's but in terms of compensation, 1.2 million HKD training cost would only equal to an expat's allowance for his SO career. Sometimes it's quite interesting to see how one differentiate an expat and a local, ask around and you'll find a lot of the so-called "EXPATS" are actually more LOCAL than a lot of the LEP's. Born and raised in Hong Kong cause his parents worked here (and probably on expat terms as well), go home for couple years to get their license, then come back and sign on expat terms. While the LEP sitting beside him could've been living overseas for most of his life, unable to support his aviation training on his own and decided to fight his way through the cadet system, only to find out that he's on the s**t scale for the rest of his career, barely making a decent living for his own and family, and still having to listen to guys like ACMS brag about their new house, cars, boats, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-wife in flight. Now that's the perfect world for ya mate.
As far as guys not getting housing allowance when they go on base, now let's work out the logic here.... If one is considered an EXPAT in HKG (and came on their own terms) not get any EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they go back to their home country, it would only make sense for the AOA to fight for the LEPs so that they all get EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they take up a base. Since they were considered as LOCALS in HKG, and it'd only make sense that they become EXPATS when they go on a base (as well on their own terms).
I'm sure ACMS will the first one to propose this movement to NR since he's so keen on separating the EXPAT gorup and the LEP group, it makes no sense to mix these two into one when they go on a base, right? Now let's see how much of a chance these HKG EXPATS would get a base when everyone in the LEP join the fight for these spots.
Yes CX did pay for training for the LEP's but in terms of compensation, 1.2 million HKD training cost would only equal to an expat's allowance for his SO career. Sometimes it's quite interesting to see how one differentiate an expat and a local, ask around and you'll find a lot of the so-called "EXPATS" are actually more LOCAL than a lot of the LEP's. Born and raised in Hong Kong cause his parents worked here (and probably on expat terms as well), go home for couple years to get their license, then come back and sign on expat terms. While the LEP sitting beside him could've been living overseas for most of his life, unable to support his aviation training on his own and decided to fight his way through the cadet system, only to find out that he's on the s**t scale for the rest of his career, barely making a decent living for his own and family, and still having to listen to guys like ACMS brag about their new house, cars, boats, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-wife in flight. Now that's the perfect world for ya mate.
As far as guys not getting housing allowance when they go on base, now let's work out the logic here.... If one is considered an EXPAT in HKG (and came on their own terms) not get any EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they go back to their home country, it would only make sense for the AOA to fight for the LEPs so that they all get EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they take up a base. Since they were considered as LOCALS in HKG, and it'd only make sense that they become EXPATS when they go on a base (as well on their own terms).
I'm sure ACMS will the first one to propose this movement to NR since he's so keen on separating the EXPAT gorup and the LEP group, it makes no sense to mix these two into one when they go on a base, right? Now let's see how much of a chance these HKG EXPATS would get a base when everyone in the LEP join the fight for these spots.
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They just don't get the EXPAT allowances, why? good question old fella!!
Because......................wait for it............................
They are NOT EXPATS.
See, simple really.
Why do I get EXPAT allowances? because CX like a LOT of Asian Carriers cannot GROW their own Pilot's on coconut trees and need to ATTRACT experienced Pilot's like us EXPATS. Now to get us all to come thousands of miles from our home countries they need to make it attractive with a lifestyle we are accustomed to, hence EXPAT ALLOWANCES. I mean lets face it, if it wasn't for the money we wouldn't be here at all and CX management would have to fly the Aircraft themselves or ground the Airline.
Now it would be nice to pay the local this money too but they are LOCALS that were born here.
As I said before, but you've probably forgotten ( due to the old age thing )
Our own Cathay Pacific based Pilot's in their home country DO NOT GET EXPAT ALLOWANCES because.......................yep you got it............they are not EXPATS even though they do the same job.
To be honest, only in Cathay you will find that the Expat thinks they are that much more superior than those who are on local terms. This is just a bad situations that is created by the old school Cathay system where there is an Expat terms and a Local terms... If you look at most other industries in Hong Kong, like banking (commerical and investment), law firm, accounting firm, real estate, etc... Most of them all moved on from this system years ago... One quick look at most multinational and big listed corporations, you will realize that there is no such thing as Expat terms for new hires anymore... everyone get the same pay and benefits if you are on the same pay grade... However, most Expat at banks and law firm, etc, do enters those firm at a higher pay grade level than most locals, but if locals reaches the same pay grade, they will get the same benefit as their EXPAT colleagues at the same company. This should be the way it is, and hence, this is the reason why so many LEP are not happy for their local package.
Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world... Most, if it is not because of their love of aviation, will probably get a much better paying job back at their respective country of residents... I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well... Most LEP have lived overseas for most of their lives and actually hold oversea passport... and most need to relocate back to HK for their CX job... therefore most LEP don't see themselves being any different than their Expat counterpart. The only distinction that the company is holding against the LEP is the fact that all LEP has a permanent HK ID card (ie: born in HK) and that's why they are consider locals... this is just a bunch of bulls*it really... This is also exactly why most of LEP demand to be equal in terms of their treatment at CX.
Finally, for those who argues that CX pays for LEP training so that's why you get a reduce benefits... this argument is flawed because they are now offering the instructor program for everyone around the world (including locals) and they are offering them Expat package on arrive back to HK... so really, the whole Expat package is just another way for CX to divide and conquer their pilot group. It has nothing to do with being Expat or Locals or not.
In order to get more LEP to join AOA, AOA needs to agree to at least attempt fight to bring the local package on par or closed to the expat package... the only way I see this can happens is to have the AOA to negotiate a HKG package irrespective of local or expat (like the rest of the industries in HKG)... and this way, it will drop the whole local/expat stigma and strength the whole pilot group.
wowpeter
(Note: In case anyone wonders... I am an AOA member... So far, I think the current committee is doing a much better job than the previous one! I have confident that you will see more LEP support if they keep up the good work.)
Last edited by wowpeter; 10th Oct 2008 at 07:10.
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LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
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LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Also, The LEPs are bonded for 7 years. Although I have been told it's not enforcible in Hong Kong.
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Just like some of us who are based outside Hong Kong, but want a full 13th month's pay plus Expat allowances.
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Yeah and I would like to receive TT's salary....keep dreaming!
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My favorite tactic is taxi with high thrust settings while riding the brakes. On a hot day in HKG, it will over-heat by the time you taxi to all the way down to 07R.
Delays will cause disruptions, disruptions will get us what we are worth.
Delays will cause disruptions, disruptions will get us what we are worth.
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Diversions will probably piss them off too.
A few years back, a Delta Airlines Captain diverted and landed in Portland, Oregon on his flight from ATL-NRT. He was upset that the company had removed the crew rest facility and make room for more seats. 300 people stranded, the event made the news, Delta received bad press, Crew Rest re-installed.
Worked like magic.
A few years back, a Delta Airlines Captain diverted and landed in Portland, Oregon on his flight from ATL-NRT. He was upset that the company had removed the crew rest facility and make room for more seats. 300 people stranded, the event made the news, Delta received bad press, Crew Rest re-installed.
Worked like magic.
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Flying Bangkok-Hong Kong?? drop into Siem Riep.
Doing Karachi-Bangkok? Say hello to Yangon..
B330 to Europe? Try breakfast in Chengdu
Linecheck to Rome? How about doing the de-brief in Kunming?
They'll get the point after a while.
Doing Karachi-Bangkok? Say hello to Yangon..
B330 to Europe? Try breakfast in Chengdu
Linecheck to Rome? How about doing the de-brief in Kunming?
They'll get the point after a while.
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LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
wow some heated people in here. Please explain where I said I was "superior to the local Pilot's"???
All I said was that I was employed as an EXPAT and as such the company paid EXPAT allowances to attract my experience here to fly their Aircraft.
Otherwise I can absolutely guarantee you 100% NONE of the EXPATS would come here, why would we bother?
LEP's are welcome to get as much as they can as far as I'm concerned. I don't want them HELD back for one minute and I don't think that is what I said.
Trouble is that the fact of the matter is they are locals and that can't be changed.
What can change is the bargaining power of the AOA through a bigger membership base. Then the locals can push their case thru their representative ( yep the AOA )
While many of the LEP and expats do nothing but bitch on the side nothing will happen, for that is certain.
All I said was that I was employed as an EXPAT and as such the company paid EXPAT allowances to attract my experience here to fly their Aircraft.
Otherwise I can absolutely guarantee you 100% NONE of the EXPATS would come here, why would we bother?
LEP's are welcome to get as much as they can as far as I'm concerned. I don't want them HELD back for one minute and I don't think that is what I said.
Trouble is that the fact of the matter is they are locals and that can't be changed.
What can change is the bargaining power of the AOA through a bigger membership base. Then the locals can push their case thru their representative ( yep the AOA )
While many of the LEP and expats do nothing but bitch on the side nothing will happen, for that is certain.
As far as guys not getting housing allowance when they go on base, now let's work out the logic here.... If one is considered an EXPAT in HKG (and came on their own terms) not get any EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they go back to their home country, it would only make sense for the AOA to fight for the LEPs so that they all get EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they take up a base. Since they were considered as LOCALS in HKG, and it'd only make sense that they become EXPATS when they go on a base (as well on their own terms).
You guys forget the whole premise of a EXPAT package. it's to offer the person the opportunity to have the same standard of Life he had in his own country before. Otherwise they WONT bother coming.
For the price you rent a decent Apartment in HK you could get a Penthouse in Australia. This is what CX have to do to get us to stay.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I can say for certain that if CX didn't have to offer these terms to get EXPATS they wouldn't.
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ACMS
So if I read you correctly, what you meant is that people would only come to HKG because the EXPAT allowance is substantially more than the LEP package, and not because of what you get as an individual. Cause it does sound like it to me. Why does it have to be ONE EXPACT PACKAGE AND ONE LOCAL PACKAGE? Couldn't it just be ONE PACKAGE? Let it be A-, B-, C-, D-, ... Z-scale. People doing the same job on the same COS should get the same deal.
In no way am I saying that EXPAT allowance should be reduced, but more like the LEP pacakge should be increased to a level that would allow them to afford close to if not the same lifestyle the next guy doing the same job.
If you think living in a 500 sq ft apartment and sending kids to public school is the kind of lifestyle LEPs deserve then it really doesn't surprise me how naive you are at all. Why would you think local kids deserve to be educated in public schools instead of private schools? Is it because HKG's public school system is far better than, say Melbourne's, public school system? So kids coming from abroad requires private school in their home country and thus require the same in HKG? Now that oughta say something about the schooling in your home country mate. And please don't give me the language barrier bulls**t, a lot of the LEP household speak solely English as well so going to public school doesn't make sense for them just like yours.
To be honest, if you ask around, I guarantee you any LEP would prefer allowance for even a 500 sq ft apartment in Melbourne rather than absolutely nothing in HKG, and majority would probably bolt for the base in a flash. If he could be folking out 1/4 instead of 1/2 of his salary for housing and education bills, it'd still go a long way in the end.
So if I read you correctly, what you meant is that people would only come to HKG because the EXPAT allowance is substantially more than the LEP package, and not because of what you get as an individual. Cause it does sound like it to me. Why does it have to be ONE EXPACT PACKAGE AND ONE LOCAL PACKAGE? Couldn't it just be ONE PACKAGE? Let it be A-, B-, C-, D-, ... Z-scale. People doing the same job on the same COS should get the same deal.
In no way am I saying that EXPAT allowance should be reduced, but more like the LEP pacakge should be increased to a level that would allow them to afford close to if not the same lifestyle the next guy doing the same job.
If you think living in a 500 sq ft apartment and sending kids to public school is the kind of lifestyle LEPs deserve then it really doesn't surprise me how naive you are at all. Why would you think local kids deserve to be educated in public schools instead of private schools? Is it because HKG's public school system is far better than, say Melbourne's, public school system? So kids coming from abroad requires private school in their home country and thus require the same in HKG? Now that oughta say something about the schooling in your home country mate. And please don't give me the language barrier bulls**t, a lot of the LEP household speak solely English as well so going to public school doesn't make sense for them just like yours.
To be honest, if you ask around, I guarantee you any LEP would prefer allowance for even a 500 sq ft apartment in Melbourne rather than absolutely nothing in HKG, and majority would probably bolt for the base in a flash. If he could be folking out 1/4 instead of 1/2 of his salary for housing and education bills, it'd still go a long way in the end.