Direct Entry Captains
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mars
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what conditions?? Giving away/reducing bypass terms for age 65....?
It would be nice if the membership were actualy told what we were negotiating, instead of finding out when the deal is done...
It would be nice if the membership were actualy told what we were negotiating, instead of finding out when the deal is done...
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Lets not forget that ALL KA Freighter pilots had the choice to remain in KA and take command slots in KA. The F/Os have not been shafted as it was their choice to go to CX. Some are on better pay than their counterparts in KA due the CX F/O payscales for SFO.
As for the right of current KA freighter pilots to remain Capt because the aircraft are moving is fallacy. None of the current crop of KA classic skippers would be LHS were the ka freighters be based in HK, Now they want to sidestep their relative low ka seniority to get a B744 command in CX.
How many KA FCS guys made the slightest effort to remain in ka? Very few, the rest simply folded and signed accross.And lets no forget how many were in the DPA? They were happy for the pay rise negotiated last year of course.
Good luck, its great to shot of them.
Why will they find it tougher in CX? They will always be outsiders, see as taking the easy way to command, and never paying their dues.
As for the right of current KA freighter pilots to remain Capt because the aircraft are moving is fallacy. None of the current crop of KA classic skippers would be LHS were the ka freighters be based in HK, Now they want to sidestep their relative low ka seniority to get a B744 command in CX.
How many KA FCS guys made the slightest effort to remain in ka? Very few, the rest simply folded and signed accross.And lets no forget how many were in the DPA? They were happy for the pay rise negotiated last year of course.
Good luck, its great to shot of them.
Why will they find it tougher in CX? They will always be outsiders, see as taking the easy way to command, and never paying their dues.
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Trevfly,
You are bang out of order
Some of us have been in KA since 01/02 & if we chose to move Airbus HKG, you guys would have been down graded or been made redundent!
For those of us moving to HKG was Not an option we were left with One choice. All Ka 744s will eventually become Cx sooner than later.
You are bang out of order
Some of us have been in KA since 01/02 & if we chose to move Airbus HKG, you guys would have been down graded or been made redundent!For those of us moving to HKG was Not an option we were left with One choice. All Ka 744s will eventually become Cx sooner than later.
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Greeny
We have a redundancy list indeed, and you my friend are certainly not going to displace me or my collegues 
... 2002 and that makes you senior haha, nuff said!
Interesting that the FCS FOs got commands out of seniority (many HK based guys would have loved to, but were unable due base/nationality), and very quickly, about 18 months as I remember.Nice for those lucky few.
Now you are all dashing off to CX to grab more commands out of seniority.
Nice honest guys eh?
... 2002 and that makes you senior haha, nuff said!Interesting that the FCS FOs got commands out of seniority (many HK based guys would have loved to, but were unable due base/nationality), and very quickly, about 18 months as I remember.Nice for those lucky few.
Now you are all dashing off to CX to grab more commands out of seniority.
Nice honest guys eh?
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Trevfly - Incredibly ignorant!
As an FCS pilot that has been a member of the DPA for 6 years (since joining) I find your comments particularly offensive.
Redundancy. Indeed it is on DOJ, the last time I checked the seniority list there were 250 names behind me. At least 175 of those would be Airbus pilots, so yes, if the company wanted to make the freighter fleet redundant some Airbus pilots would be in the firing line a long time before me and many of my FCS colleagues.
Command out of seniority. Where on earth did you dig this little nugget up from? All commands were awarded in strict seniority. If you didn't have the right to work in the UK that's tough, the same as I can't apply for a job in Australia or Canada. I don't whinge about it, it's a fact of life.
Your comments display an astonishing lack of knowledge about the situation with KA freighters and the reaming that we've had from our new masters. You may have a point about the low DPA membership rate (something that has always irked me) but when we're on the receiving end of the type of rubbish that you've just spouted, can you blame us?
And if you have the balls to call me dishonest to my face, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you over a beer in HKG - just PM me. 
Redundancy. Indeed it is on DOJ, the last time I checked the seniority list there were 250 names behind me. At least 175 of those would be Airbus pilots, so yes, if the company wanted to make the freighter fleet redundant some Airbus pilots would be in the firing line a long time before me and many of my FCS colleagues.
Command out of seniority. Where on earth did you dig this little nugget up from? All commands were awarded in strict seniority. If you didn't have the right to work in the UK that's tough, the same as I can't apply for a job in Australia or Canada. I don't whinge about it, it's a fact of life.
Your comments display an astonishing lack of knowledge about the situation with KA freighters and the reaming that we've had from our new masters. You may have a point about the low DPA membership rate (something that has always irked me) but when we're on the receiving end of the type of rubbish that you've just spouted, can you blame us?
Nice honest guys eh?
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Very Tired lack of sympathy
Dear very tired
your lack of sympathy is astonishing.
Yes if there was redundancy you would displace a number of Airbus pilots, many of them Captains.
Yes you did get your command, somehow, when you seniority number allowed and nobody with a higher seniority bid for the position.
Yes you are British and strangely have the right of abode in the UK.
No you would not be able to work in Australia.
Yes if you had decided to remain in HKG you would have got a command to the detriment of a HKG based F/O.
No it does not matter that you have been a DPA member since joining KA.
And so what if you accept your lot with good grace.
You just don't get the point!
Just lose your life and then you would have time to post on PPrune about everything and anything.
If you go to CX why should that upset anyone in KA. Good luck.
your lack of sympathy is astonishing.
Yes if there was redundancy you would displace a number of Airbus pilots, many of them Captains.
Yes you did get your command, somehow, when you seniority number allowed and nobody with a higher seniority bid for the position.
Yes you are British and strangely have the right of abode in the UK.
No you would not be able to work in Australia.
Yes if you had decided to remain in HKG you would have got a command to the detriment of a HKG based F/O.
No it does not matter that you have been a DPA member since joining KA.
And so what if you accept your lot with good grace.
You just don't get the point!
Just lose your life and then you would have time to post on PPrune about everything and anything.
If you go to CX why should that upset anyone in KA. Good luck.
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Hey Fire Wall - I heard the same thing about ST being on the negotiations team. Does anyone know what the truth is - don't suppose the ever so transparent AOA would tell us, would they?
FF
FF
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The KA frieighter was supose to be a HK operation. None of the current crop of bailers would have come close to a command. Period. They are privilaged simply cos of the base. Oh and Ex the british RAFmay ave elped.
They now move to a CX MAN base, and take their commands, screwing the future CX upgraders.
And who is on the 1st course?
The DPA freighter rep! My god its happened again, the DPA rep has lined his own pockets. And the biggest kick in the teeth? He's on the first KA-CX direct entry command course. The first course, after recommending all KA pilots to remove "resign from KA " in their CX contracts.Obviously he didnt.
Good he stood firm eh? Typical, blooody typical.
Wonder if his loyalty will be to hs new employer, the AOA or his selfish self? I think we all can guess this one.
They now move to a CX MAN base, and take their commands, screwing the future CX upgraders.
And who is on the 1st course?
The DPA freighter rep! My god its happened again, the DPA rep has lined his own pockets. And the biggest kick in the teeth? He's on the first KA-CX direct entry command course. The first course, after recommending all KA pilots to remove "resign from KA " in their CX contracts.Obviously he didnt.
Good he stood firm eh? Typical, blooody typical.
Wonder if his loyalty will be to hs new employer, the AOA or his selfish self? I think we all can guess this one.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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trevfly I have no idea how accurate your comments are but it is time you learned that when the need arises pilots will eat their own young.
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Very accurate.
Im bitter as I towed the line,as advised by the DPA rep, stayed HK based on t'Bus, to find these command opportunists screwing the whole operation, then bail to CX. What a joke.
Im bitter as I towed the line,as advised by the DPA rep, stayed HK based on t'Bus, to find these command opportunists screwing the whole operation, then bail to CX. What a joke.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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How many bars?
I notice in the news letter that a certain Capt G.O. has been awarded his 4 bars, congratulations.
I then wondered how many bars these DECs from Oasis or KA wear during the rapid command course. Are they really DECs and wear 4 or is it only 3 for the course? I'm sure it won't have bothered G.O. but some KA egos might not take the strain!
By the way Trev to be fair to the DPA rep he was next inline for a course be it a KA or CX one.
I then wondered how many bars these DECs from Oasis or KA wear during the rapid command course. Are they really DECs and wear 4 or is it only 3 for the course? I'm sure it won't have bothered G.O. but some KA egos might not take the strain!
By the way Trev to be fair to the DPA rep he was next inline for a course be it a KA or CX one.
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Calm Down Trev
You're displaying a dangerous level of knowledge here!
Said DPA rep did remove the words from his paperwork but, sadly for them, he was in a minority. Had they all done it, or at least more than the dozen or so that did, then you'd really be squealing now. The result would probably have been a short court case which would probably have found that the merging of the KA freighters into our own fleet was in fact a "Takeover" and thus should come under UK TUPE legislation.
So, why would you be squealing about that?
It would mean that not only would they be coming over as direct entry captains but they'd keep "DoJ" seniority!
Have a chat with any of the AOA reps involved with the negotiation and you'll probably find they have the same story.
Said DPA rep did remove the words from his paperwork but, sadly for them, he was in a minority. Had they all done it, or at least more than the dozen or so that did, then you'd really be squealing now. The result would probably have been a short court case which would probably have found that the merging of the KA freighters into our own fleet was in fact a "Takeover" and thus should come under UK TUPE legislation.
So, why would you be squealing about that?
It would mean that not only would they be coming over as direct entry captains but they'd keep "DoJ" seniority!
Have a chat with any of the AOA reps involved with the negotiation and you'll probably find they have the same story.
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Trevfly,
If you want to find out the facts instead of the crap that you're spouting then I suggest that you call the former DPA rep to discuss, Linda will be happy to give you the number - that is if you're a member! As usual, half a story.....
If you want to find out the facts instead of the crap that you're spouting then I suggest that you call the former DPA rep to discuss, Linda will be happy to give you the number - that is if you're a member! As usual, half a story.....
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Trevfly, remember this?
and
That was the advice given to all UK based pilots (TUPE only applies in the UK and not HKG).
Why are you now bleating about the 7 year FCS operation that has been accepted by all as a part of Dragonair? I certainly didn't hear any whingeing from you in the last few years.
Krone, what are you smoking?
Many guys did go to HKG and made a great success of it. The same as many HKG airbus pilots came to the Classic and made a success of their time on 747. There is no 'easy ride' in KA, just a standard to reach no matter what fleet you are on.
I'm astonished and saddened by the vitriol being directed at pilots in the same company, particularly those who have worked tirelessly to improve the lot of all, when they are simply trying to salvage some sort of career from the wreckage of Cathay's actions.
I have been advised that the arrangements described in the documents I have been sent by the company including the document entitled “Background to the Decision with Regard to the Future for the Dragonair Freighters from the CEO” and the question and answer document sent by Mike Kitney, constitute a transfer under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) and that by operation of TUPE my current contract of employment will not terminate but will be transferred to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited with the terms and conditions unaltered. Accordingly I now place on record that I do not object to the transfer of my employment to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited but that I am not resigning from my current employment because my employment will transfer to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited in any event.
I am resigning my employment with Dragonair Ltd only because I have been pressurised to do so and because my employer has made express representations that:
(i) my continued employment with Dragonair Limited is at risk;
(ii) Cathay Pacific will not absorb the surplus Dragonair operation once the Dragonair fleet is reduced to three B744 aircraft.
The second of those representations has been made for the first time on 12th March 2008. I trust that that representation derives from Cathay Pacific which knows and intends that it shall be passed on to me. The deadline for acceptance of employment with Cathay Pacific is 14th March 2008. Given the time available, I have been given insufficient time to explore what Cathay Pacific means by it.
I suspect and believe that my employment is in fact to be transferred to Cathay Pacific and I am being pressurised to resign so as to enable Dragonair Ltd and Cathay Pacific to avoid their obligations to me under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. I consider further that my employer is in breach of its obligation to me under the implied term of trust and confidence within my contract of employment.
In order to mitigate my losses and in reliance on the representations set out above, I accept the offer of employment with Cathay Pacific, but I do so without prejudice to my claim that my employment is in fact to be transferred and that I retain my original terms and conditions of employment with Dragonair Limited.
(i) my continued employment with Dragonair Limited is at risk;
(ii) Cathay Pacific will not absorb the surplus Dragonair operation once the Dragonair fleet is reduced to three B744 aircraft.
The second of those representations has been made for the first time on 12th March 2008. I trust that that representation derives from Cathay Pacific which knows and intends that it shall be passed on to me. The deadline for acceptance of employment with Cathay Pacific is 14th March 2008. Given the time available, I have been given insufficient time to explore what Cathay Pacific means by it.
I suspect and believe that my employment is in fact to be transferred to Cathay Pacific and I am being pressurised to resign so as to enable Dragonair Ltd and Cathay Pacific to avoid their obligations to me under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. I consider further that my employer is in breach of its obligation to me under the implied term of trust and confidence within my contract of employment.
In order to mitigate my losses and in reliance on the representations set out above, I accept the offer of employment with Cathay Pacific, but I do so without prejudice to my claim that my employment is in fact to be transferred and that I retain my original terms and conditions of employment with Dragonair Limited.
Why are you now bleating about the 7 year FCS operation that has been accepted by all as a part of Dragonair? I certainly didn't hear any whingeing from you in the last few years.
Krone, what are you smoking?
The freighter option was an easy command in KA......Would these guys have made it so easily in KA HK
I'm astonished and saddened by the vitriol being directed at pilots in the same company, particularly those who have worked tirelessly to improve the lot of all, when they are simply trying to salvage some sort of career from the wreckage of Cathay's actions.
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krone and trevfly
The company must love you two.
Two heroes! Thousands and thousands of wide body command hours, I don't think so, and experience coming out of your ears.
Yet all you can do is snipe at others in your own company with absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. That is exactly how the workforce gets divided and conquered, and don't tell me that you supported the freighter fleet.
krone
''The freighter option was an easy command in KA, few if any failures in the early years. HEY, Would these guys have made it so easily in KA HK?. Those that have come accross find it a different culture for sure. Those who failed here, moved over there.''
Obviously not a trainer then Krone, maybe you think you are, because the idea of giving a command course is not to fail the guy it is to facilitate his passing.
trevfly
''The KA frieighter was supose to be a HK operation. None of the current crop of bailers would have come close to a command. Period. They are privilaged simply cos of the base. Oh and Ex the british RAFmay ave elped.''
The company decided to base the a/c in the UK. The company decided to buy in experienced crews. The company decided period. If you have a problem not being English then that is your chip. If you have a problem with the company then take it out on the company and stop being a sheila.
The DPA rep is in Hong Kong and would love to meet you, why don't you say hello you might learn something.
Two heroes! Thousands and thousands of wide body command hours, I don't think so, and experience coming out of your ears.
Yet all you can do is snipe at others in your own company with absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. That is exactly how the workforce gets divided and conquered, and don't tell me that you supported the freighter fleet.
krone
''The freighter option was an easy command in KA, few if any failures in the early years. HEY, Would these guys have made it so easily in KA HK?. Those that have come accross find it a different culture for sure. Those who failed here, moved over there.''
Obviously not a trainer then Krone, maybe you think you are, because the idea of giving a command course is not to fail the guy it is to facilitate his passing.
trevfly
''The KA frieighter was supose to be a HK operation. None of the current crop of bailers would have come close to a command. Period. They are privilaged simply cos of the base. Oh and Ex the british RAFmay ave elped.''
The company decided to base the a/c in the UK. The company decided to buy in experienced crews. The company decided period. If you have a problem not being English then that is your chip. If you have a problem with the company then take it out on the company and stop being a sheila.
The DPA rep is in Hong Kong and would love to meet you, why don't you say hello you might learn something.
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Will you children ever stop whining? If you haven't the balls to stick together and look out each other you deserve the crap your immoral "managers" will shove down your skinny necks forever. Just accept it. You will eventually leave cx bitter, hating the industry and blaming everyone but yourselves. I thought flying was supposed to be fun.
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No Balls, Just Pupets
from what I have seen, it is dog eat dog, and there are a bunch of gutless wonders in this company. There is alot of talk, but no one backs themselves up....
Recipie to be happy is to accept that you are going to be screwed over, just go to work, do what you have to do, go home put it all aside and be happy with life out of work.
OR
Otherwise get a job you enjoy.....
Simple, if you are asking yourself questions if you should be here or not, it is time to ask assess your situation and make yourself happier.....
It's not rocket science....
Recipie to be happy is to accept that you are going to be screwed over, just go to work, do what you have to do, go home put it all aside and be happy with life out of work.
OR
Otherwise get a job you enjoy.....
Simple, if you are asking yourself questions if you should be here or not, it is time to ask assess your situation and make yourself happier.....
It's not rocket science....
Last edited by Humber10; 27th Aug 2008 at 02:33.
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Tired Twentys
"The DPA rep is in Hong Kong and would love to meet you"
Err I'mlove too but the DA rep signed up to join CX (outta seniority) as of 1st Julyand is now a Cx employee, ex Ka and ex DPA.
Now has he joined the AOA...hmmm...thought not. Have any of the post July 1st bailers shown any interest in the AOA? Seems unlikly given the history of many of these guys with showing soldarity for anything but their wallets.
Err I'mlove too but the DA rep signed up to join CX (outta seniority) as of 1st Julyand is now a Cx employee, ex Ka and ex DPA.
Now has he joined the AOA...hmmm...thought not. Have any of the post July 1st bailers shown any interest in the AOA? Seems unlikly given the history of many of these guys with showing soldarity for anything but their wallets.
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Trev, yet again you talk bo11ocks.
Check with the AOA to see if the first 2 exKA pilots have applied - you might be surprised. I await your retraction.
As for seniority about joining CX. The seniority date is 1st July and all KA pilots were put on the list in KA current seniority order. Nobody had any choice about when they were doing courses, it was dictated by CX and their training resources. Again you might like to check with KA management about the veracity of my statement. I await your second retraction.
I really have no idea what your problem is. Time and again you have made random (incorrect) statements about various people that have been caught up in CX's politics. It seems that your ire is reserved for those who simply want to continue in a career based in UK flying the same aeroplanes they have done for the last 7 years rather than subject their kids to the filthy HK atmsophere. I would suggest that your misguided anger needs to be redirected towards the managers that either instigated this policy or allowed it to happen.
You could even try actually talking to some of the FCS pilots affected to find out the real story, but then that probably wouldn't fit into your version of reality would it?
Check with the AOA to see if the first 2 exKA pilots have applied - you might be surprised. I await your retraction.
As for seniority about joining CX. The seniority date is 1st July and all KA pilots were put on the list in KA current seniority order. Nobody had any choice about when they were doing courses, it was dictated by CX and their training resources. Again you might like to check with KA management about the veracity of my statement. I await your second retraction.
I really have no idea what your problem is. Time and again you have made random (incorrect) statements about various people that have been caught up in CX's politics. It seems that your ire is reserved for those who simply want to continue in a career based in UK flying the same aeroplanes they have done for the last 7 years rather than subject their kids to the filthy HK atmsophere. I would suggest that your misguided anger needs to be redirected towards the managers that either instigated this policy or allowed it to happen.
You could even try actually talking to some of the FCS pilots affected to find out the real story, but then that probably wouldn't fit into your version of reality would it?