Bypass pay - expectation management
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Very Insightful
Intransitgent,
Your post is very insightful. I'd have to check into it a bit further, but what is AC's current retirement age. Isn't it still 60 despite age 65 in Canada/USA. Would AC not be in contravention of Age Discrimination Laws by making its pilot group retire five years earlier than the ICAO mandate??
I am not exactly sure of AC's desires for pushing up their retirement age. Perhaps you have some buddies working there that could shed some light on the wants of the pilots vs. that of the company. Are they working towards an amicable agreement?
As for the issue of solidarity...
I think any issue that affects ANY of the pilot group should be looked at by the WHOLE group. How do you think we got ourselves in this situation? We need to look at issues on the basis of the GREATER GOOD, not what's in it for ME. CX has divided and conquered quite easily for some time now . We need to take down the walls (A vs B, Based vs. HK vs. LEP, etc.) that have divided the group for many years and REGROUP to STAND TOGETHER.
MACH.88
Your post is very insightful. I'd have to check into it a bit further, but what is AC's current retirement age. Isn't it still 60 despite age 65 in Canada/USA. Would AC not be in contravention of Age Discrimination Laws by making its pilot group retire five years earlier than the ICAO mandate??
I am not exactly sure of AC's desires for pushing up their retirement age. Perhaps you have some buddies working there that could shed some light on the wants of the pilots vs. that of the company. Are they working towards an amicable agreement?
As for the issue of solidarity...
I think any issue that affects ANY of the pilot group should be looked at by the WHOLE group. How do you think we got ourselves in this situation? We need to look at issues on the basis of the GREATER GOOD, not what's in it for ME. CX has divided and conquered quite easily for some time now . We need to take down the walls (A vs B, Based vs. HK vs. LEP, etc.) that have divided the group for many years and REGROUP to STAND TOGETHER.
MACH.88
Well said Raven. The NC has just got carried away and cannot see into the future any more than I can.
Those of us who got Commands within 5 years were just in the right place at the right time.
Send all of us 55+Trainers packing and that would help promotions wouldn't it NC??
BTW I have no problems with paying a 3-6 month salary to all FO/SO's in lieu of By-pass and retirement at 65.
Just need an agreed deal - that's all.............................
Those of us who got Commands within 5 years were just in the right place at the right time.
Send all of us 55+Trainers packing and that would help promotions wouldn't it NC??
BTW I have no problems with paying a 3-6 month salary to all FO/SO's in lieu of By-pass and retirement at 65.
Just need an agreed deal - that's all.............................
Last edited by Arfur Dent; 23rd Mar 2008 at 09:28.
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Now this is just hearsay but I heard a First Officer just 3 months from Command was delayed a year. Can anyone confirm this?
If so, I don’t think 3-6 months will cut it.
The company can increase the retirement age to 65 but they must wear the bypass pay until all First Officers and Second Officers on COS 99 are Captains. Full stop in my opinion. If on COS 08, you are out of luck.
It only seems fair but I can’t see a 54 year old standing for that or anyone the rank of Captain. It’s all about me or what is in it for me.
Cathay agreed to by-pass pay, it’s time they followed the contract and not try to get out at the expense of others.
IMHO of course.
If so, I don’t think 3-6 months will cut it.
The company can increase the retirement age to 65 but they must wear the bypass pay until all First Officers and Second Officers on COS 99 are Captains. Full stop in my opinion. If on COS 08, you are out of luck.
It only seems fair but I can’t see a 54 year old standing for that or anyone the rank of Captain. It’s all about me or what is in it for me.
Cathay agreed to by-pass pay, it’s time they followed the contract and not try to get out at the expense of others.
IMHO of course.
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So all you guys talking it up about taking a stand in '99 and fighting the good fight etc are advocating a "compromise" on bypass pay so you can get age 65?? Yep there's some real solidarity. Nice. There is already a mechanism for people to work through past 55. Why are you guys endorsing them cheaping out again??
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Raven 11,
Let me see if I've got this right. Back in the 90's command stretched out to 8ish years from the 3 to 5 it was.
Post '99 joiners will be looking at 16 to 18 yrs to command, ASL added 3-4 of these as of April this year and RA65 will add another 4-6 in the coming 18 months and somehow this isn't as bad as the 8 year wait to command in the 90's?
Please explain
A decade longer than anyone endured in the 90's........ Right seat for most until into your late 40's, early 50's.................
You feel it is completely unjustified for there to be a degree of unhappiness?
Let me see if I've got this right. Back in the 90's command stretched out to 8ish years from the 3 to 5 it was.
Post '99 joiners will be looking at 16 to 18 yrs to command, ASL added 3-4 of these as of April this year and RA65 will add another 4-6 in the coming 18 months and somehow this isn't as bad as the 8 year wait to command in the 90's?
Please explain
A decade longer than anyone endured in the 90's........ Right seat for most until into your late 40's, early 50's.................
You feel it is completely unjustified for there to be a degree of unhappiness?
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Jaglawyer
" Send all of us 55+Trainers packing and that would help promotions wouldn't it".
Well, for the first few months after you were retired, upgrades would slow down. But once you had been replaced, hopefully by those pilots in their 3rd and 4th decades of life, command rate would be faster than before as the number of command slots available are no longer restricted by those that choose to extend. If they really wanted or needed you that badly they would have offered A scales. They offer such inferior conditions so that the cost of extending you, with associated bypass pay, is not much greater than it would have been if they had upgraded an FO!
This recent generation of pilots is much younger than for the past decade so it is likely to have lots of C+Ters in their 30s and 40s. So I imagine with a little bit of forethought, CX could easily plan ahead for the occasional C+T dinosaur that approaches 55, to be replaced before he retires. The whole "get a greater PF mulitplier" by being in C+T does not apply to B scalers.
So yes after an initial hiccup, we will have lots more commands now that extendees aren't blocking training positions, basings etc. And it would be nice to be trained by pilots who don't complain about how many 1000s of options they got for their pay cut in 99. It would be nice to be trained by pilots who don't have pictures of porsches or ferraris in their wallet! It would be nice to be trained by guys who actually had to spend 10years getting their command, this decade.
" Send all of us 55+Trainers packing and that would help promotions wouldn't it".
Well, for the first few months after you were retired, upgrades would slow down. But once you had been replaced, hopefully by those pilots in their 3rd and 4th decades of life, command rate would be faster than before as the number of command slots available are no longer restricted by those that choose to extend. If they really wanted or needed you that badly they would have offered A scales. They offer such inferior conditions so that the cost of extending you, with associated bypass pay, is not much greater than it would have been if they had upgraded an FO!
This recent generation of pilots is much younger than for the past decade so it is likely to have lots of C+Ters in their 30s and 40s. So I imagine with a little bit of forethought, CX could easily plan ahead for the occasional C+T dinosaur that approaches 55, to be replaced before he retires. The whole "get a greater PF mulitplier" by being in C+T does not apply to B scalers.
So yes after an initial hiccup, we will have lots more commands now that extendees aren't blocking training positions, basings etc. And it would be nice to be trained by pilots who don't complain about how many 1000s of options they got for their pay cut in 99. It would be nice to be trained by pilots who don't have pictures of porsches or ferraris in their wallet! It would be nice to be trained by guys who actually had to spend 10years getting their command, this decade.
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Well Hiro, I guess you're ignoring my suggestion to lose the angry and nasty tone...
First of all, it took me and my colleagues 10 years plus to earn our commands (not three to eightish). That was after joining as direct entry first officers in our mid to late thirties. We were recruited as high time/mid career pilots. We joined in our "third decade" of life, so put up our four bars in the "fourth decade" of life. We didn't join as Second Officers in the "second decade" of life, so we spent 10 years+ in the right seat. Cathay didn't have a cadet programme until the early ninties, or hirer direct entry second officers until the mid nineties. Generally, in most but not all cases, the direct entry second officers hired were not hi-time pilots, and had no jet time.
I've never owned a porsche or ferrari (although I did own a mitsubishi space wagon once); after "three decades" of marriage, I'm still with my first wife (and intend to remain with her); I'm raising a family; never did well in the stock or real estate market; I'm not...how did you characterize it again...a dinosaur; and, I like to think of myself as a decent and honourable man.
I advocate we stick together and demand a decent and fair deal for us all. That way we, hopefully, can all be happy, and not just one group.
Lastly, I return your words to you with this thought: if Cathay needed Second and First Officers more than they needed Captains, Checkers. or Trainers...they would pay YOU full bypass pay!
So you see Hiro, unless you think you're more marketable, or that you can get a better deal or quicker command somewhere else, it makes god sense to stick together.
So I suggest we stop bickering with each other, and focus our energies on convincing the Company to give us all a fair deal.
First of all, it took me and my colleagues 10 years plus to earn our commands (not three to eightish). That was after joining as direct entry first officers in our mid to late thirties. We were recruited as high time/mid career pilots. We joined in our "third decade" of life, so put up our four bars in the "fourth decade" of life. We didn't join as Second Officers in the "second decade" of life, so we spent 10 years+ in the right seat. Cathay didn't have a cadet programme until the early ninties, or hirer direct entry second officers until the mid nineties. Generally, in most but not all cases, the direct entry second officers hired were not hi-time pilots, and had no jet time.
I've never owned a porsche or ferrari (although I did own a mitsubishi space wagon once); after "three decades" of marriage, I'm still with my first wife (and intend to remain with her); I'm raising a family; never did well in the stock or real estate market; I'm not...how did you characterize it again...a dinosaur; and, I like to think of myself as a decent and honourable man.
I advocate we stick together and demand a decent and fair deal for us all. That way we, hopefully, can all be happy, and not just one group.
Lastly, I return your words to you with this thought: if Cathay needed Second and First Officers more than they needed Captains, Checkers. or Trainers...they would pay YOU full bypass pay!
So you see Hiro, unless you think you're more marketable, or that you can get a better deal or quicker command somewhere else, it makes god sense to stick together.
So I suggest we stop bickering with each other, and focus our energies on convincing the Company to give us all a fair deal.
Last edited by raven11; 24th Mar 2008 at 02:51.
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It should be quite clear to all what to do. Age 65 is coming, DEFO is happening, bases are disappearing etc.
Compensation for this is written in your contract if you joined before COS8. It's very simple. There is no need for bickering just as there is no need for negotiation on this. Full bypass as per contract must be paid to all affected.
I joined in my third decade, had plenty of jet time but still came as SO. I don't mind sitting here as FO till well into my fourth decade - but I must be compensated. NOBODY told me at my interviews that my projected career earnings will be substantially less due to above mentioned developments. If CX was honest about this I most likely would not have accepted the offer - simple career earnings math.
End of story.
Compensation for this is written in your contract if you joined before COS8. It's very simple. There is no need for bickering just as there is no need for negotiation on this. Full bypass as per contract must be paid to all affected.
I joined in my third decade, had plenty of jet time but still came as SO. I don't mind sitting here as FO till well into my fourth decade - but I must be compensated. NOBODY told me at my interviews that my projected career earnings will be substantially less due to above mentioned developments. If CX was honest about this I most likely would not have accepted the offer - simple career earnings math.
End of story.
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Once again .Ravin 11..
When I arrived at Cathay I was 35 and well expierenced. Commands were 3 to 4 years. With ASL etc. etc. my command went 9 years ( thats 9 yrs as a f/o..no second officer time in there). So I was a f/o longer than most of the young captains today.
I took it as that is Airline Life...timing is everything. I just got on with life and didn't do half the whinning one sees today.
When you join an airline, they don't promise you early commands and they don't promise you basings. If you come here expecting them, then you are very naive.
Airlines change with the times and so do management types and hence contracts change. I, like you, hate it but the only way to change it is to stand together and stop whinging at one particular group.
When I arrived at Cathay I was 35 and well expierenced. Commands were 3 to 4 years. With ASL etc. etc. my command went 9 years ( thats 9 yrs as a f/o..no second officer time in there). So I was a f/o longer than most of the young captains today.
I took it as that is Airline Life...timing is everything. I just got on with life and didn't do half the whinning one sees today.
When you join an airline, they don't promise you early commands and they don't promise you basings. If you come here expecting them, then you are very naive.
Airlines change with the times and so do management types and hence contracts change. I, like you, hate it but the only way to change it is to stand together and stop whinging at one particular group.
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Well I hope you are telling the AOA this because that is not what they are doing. It doesn’t affect me but the AOA is compromising your contract.
A reminder to all this affects. You are all on INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS and the AOA “CANNOT” negotiate on your behalf. If this goes through everybody below the rank of Captain on COS 99 will have to write a letter preferable from a Barrister that this is a degradation of your contract and you will not accept this.
Ask for a reply so you know they received it, so CX can’t come back and say they never received it. It happened before.
Get your letters into your Barrister now, because you are going to need them.
I can only assume that all the Captains are writing into the AOA saying we need to negotiate this RA55 thing.
Which group has more members???
Not willing to fight for it, then I don’t want to hear any complaining after it is over.
Bypass pay is in your contract, only YOU can allow that change unless they give you a sign or be fired letter. No they wouldn’t do that would they?
A reminder to all this affects. You are all on INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS and the AOA “CANNOT” negotiate on your behalf. If this goes through everybody below the rank of Captain on COS 99 will have to write a letter preferable from a Barrister that this is a degradation of your contract and you will not accept this.
Ask for a reply so you know they received it, so CX can’t come back and say they never received it. It happened before.
Get your letters into your Barrister now, because you are going to need them.
I can only assume that all the Captains are writing into the AOA saying we need to negotiate this RA55 thing.
Which group has more members???
Not willing to fight for it, then I don’t want to hear any complaining after it is over.
Bypass pay is in your contract, only YOU can allow that change unless they give you a sign or be fired letter. No they wouldn’t do that would they?
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Am I missing something here? In my contract there is provision for by pass pay, try changing that without my consent and that equals breach of contract.
Raven, please don't take this as "angry" but are you suggesting that I am reading this incorrectly? Should I agree to have this removed from my contract? If so, why?
Is there any reason why I should now accept a worse deal than the one I signed up for?
Does anyone have a proposal. What would people be prepared to accept?
Raven, please don't take this as "angry" but are you suggesting that I am reading this incorrectly? Should I agree to have this removed from my contract? If so, why?
Is there any reason why I should now accept a worse deal than the one I signed up for?
Does anyone have a proposal. What would people be prepared to accept?
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If it is more favorable to someone coming up to RA55, then yes you should have that removed from your contract. I can’t believe you had to ask!
Maybe someone coming up to RA55 can offer some of his A Scale Salary to the junior officers as a form of payment for them giving up bypass pay.
That way no junior officer (F/0 or S/O on COS 99) will be financially disadvantaged and the Senior Pilot can work until 65 “or until he dies whichever comes first” on B Scale.
That way the Senior A Scale pilot can fund his own extension. When all the A Scale blokes are finished then the company funds all the junior officers until they get to the bottom of COS 99 and when the first COS 08 pilot receives his command, the by-pass pay stops.
That way CX will not have to fund all the bypass pay and the guys wanting to extend will fund it themselves (in part) in the form of lower pay and benefits (i.e. no travel fund, B scale PF, post 97 medical, etc).
Seem fair????
Better find a good Barrister and send in your letter, cc it to the AOA.
Or is it better for the Junior Officers to give up by-pass pay and fund the extended retirement age? Let’s debate, nicely.
IMHO, the only thing wrong with the current system is that it is too expensive for CX. They can't afford it.
Nothing is stopping CX from increasing the RA in Hong Kong now, it just costs them but they are not willing to pay. They want someone else to pay.
Just keep in mind you are all on individual contracts and YOU and ONLY YOU can have it reduced. Will CX put a letter out to all Officers below the rank of Captain, sign or be fired? That would never happen.
Maybe someone coming up to RA55 can offer some of his A Scale Salary to the junior officers as a form of payment for them giving up bypass pay.
That way no junior officer (F/0 or S/O on COS 99) will be financially disadvantaged and the Senior Pilot can work until 65 “or until he dies whichever comes first” on B Scale.
That way the Senior A Scale pilot can fund his own extension. When all the A Scale blokes are finished then the company funds all the junior officers until they get to the bottom of COS 99 and when the first COS 08 pilot receives his command, the by-pass pay stops.
That way CX will not have to fund all the bypass pay and the guys wanting to extend will fund it themselves (in part) in the form of lower pay and benefits (i.e. no travel fund, B scale PF, post 97 medical, etc).
Seem fair????
Better find a good Barrister and send in your letter, cc it to the AOA.
Or is it better for the Junior Officers to give up by-pass pay and fund the extended retirement age? Let’s debate, nicely.
IMHO, the only thing wrong with the current system is that it is too expensive for CX. They can't afford it.
Nothing is stopping CX from increasing the RA in Hong Kong now, it just costs them but they are not willing to pay. They want someone else to pay.
Just keep in mind you are all on individual contracts and YOU and ONLY YOU can have it reduced. Will CX put a letter out to all Officers below the rank of Captain, sign or be fired? That would never happen.
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Sorry Raven and Panza,
There is no angry tone here just a sad resignation as to how things will be. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant, most guys joining now or who joined in the past 6-8 years were late 20's early 30's, had 4-6000 hrs and joined because command was happily around 10 yrs. (Not the green 21 year olds with 1000 hrs)
It is not going to be this 10 years, not by any stretch of the imagination and your subtle use of 10+ as your time to command doesn't remotely equal the 18 years many will be facing. If you were 10+ meaning you did 15 or 16 years to command then I apologise. However I am guessing it was more like 10 to 11.
I agree that the company needs captains more than F/O's or S/O's and so I agree that you carry considerably more weight in negotiations.
Post '99ers haven't forgotten negotiations in '99 when the Company didn't want to add ASL seniority straight in and instantly stretch command for new joiner S/Os by 3-4 years. While the AOA GC stated that new joiners S/Os were insignificant next to non union members in ASL and anyone post '99 should wait as long for command as the AOA deemed necessary.
Once again history from '99 seems to be repeating itself with the DPA rejecting the move to join the bottom of Cathay's seniority scale and the spectre that once again the AOA GC will slide in a bunch of non-union non-cathay people (nice blokes and good friends of theirs, mind you) and commands will stretch out a further 3-5 years. (hey it only affects post '99 joiners waiting on command so it doesn't affect anybody)
On top of RA65 which I don't have a problem with. My point is, while yes sticking together is a good thing, anyone who joined post '99 has had a union who constantly puts anyone else before us. If every post '99 union member quit and formed a pilot body that didn't put us second every time everyone would be a lot better off.
You could negotiate with what leverage you had which as captains would be plenty, and we could scrape together 1500 members, (everyone post '99 would join since they would see they are actually represented) and see how we go with reasonable numbers but with only f/o's and s/o's amongst us for the next 3-4 years (gambling maybe a few get Commands before RA 65).
The AOA would never see another new member of course but as has often been pointed out to me, new joiner AOA members are basically worthless anyway.
Hey it couldn't get much worse the 18 years isn't factoring in the the odd slowdown in the industry which could push out command times for post '99 guys to 20 or 25 years.
We'd have to go to 65 for command because we'd still be F/Oing at 55
Of course we could all just stick together instead.
There is no angry tone here just a sad resignation as to how things will be. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant, most guys joining now or who joined in the past 6-8 years were late 20's early 30's, had 4-6000 hrs and joined because command was happily around 10 yrs. (Not the green 21 year olds with 1000 hrs)
It is not going to be this 10 years, not by any stretch of the imagination and your subtle use of 10+ as your time to command doesn't remotely equal the 18 years many will be facing. If you were 10+ meaning you did 15 or 16 years to command then I apologise. However I am guessing it was more like 10 to 11.
I agree that the company needs captains more than F/O's or S/O's and so I agree that you carry considerably more weight in negotiations.
Post '99ers haven't forgotten negotiations in '99 when the Company didn't want to add ASL seniority straight in and instantly stretch command for new joiner S/Os by 3-4 years. While the AOA GC stated that new joiners S/Os were insignificant next to non union members in ASL and anyone post '99 should wait as long for command as the AOA deemed necessary.
Once again history from '99 seems to be repeating itself with the DPA rejecting the move to join the bottom of Cathay's seniority scale and the spectre that once again the AOA GC will slide in a bunch of non-union non-cathay people (nice blokes and good friends of theirs, mind you) and commands will stretch out a further 3-5 years. (hey it only affects post '99 joiners waiting on command so it doesn't affect anybody)
On top of RA65 which I don't have a problem with. My point is, while yes sticking together is a good thing, anyone who joined post '99 has had a union who constantly puts anyone else before us. If every post '99 union member quit and formed a pilot body that didn't put us second every time everyone would be a lot better off.
You could negotiate with what leverage you had which as captains would be plenty, and we could scrape together 1500 members, (everyone post '99 would join since they would see they are actually represented) and see how we go with reasonable numbers but with only f/o's and s/o's amongst us for the next 3-4 years (gambling maybe a few get Commands before RA 65).
The AOA would never see another new member of course but as has often been pointed out to me, new joiner AOA members are basically worthless anyway.
Hey it couldn't get much worse
the 18 years isn't factoring in the the odd slowdown in the industry which could push out command times for post '99 guys to 20 or 25 years.We'd have to go to 65 for command because we'd still be F/Oing at 55
Of course we could all just stick together instead.
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Historically CX has always managed to get what it wants (direct entry commands via ASL for example); if it wants RA65 it WILL happen. It is imperative that we realise this, forget petty squabbling amongst ourselves and ensure that we all have a say in how it is implemented.
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Raven, Panza, etc.........
I don't think Hiro and the Like are having a go at you guys, but the extendees on A scale whom, after at least 20 - 30 years in the Company should be able to afford retirement by now surely. I'd rather see my bypass pay being spent by ME in Wan Chai than by others.
Commands are at 8.5 years as i write......... so , if they do blow out a bit to take into account maybe SOME of the ASL captains leaving their comfy base wherever they are to take up Pax commands in Smog Kong, it'll still be around 9 or 10 years. I'm not taking into account the RA65 so maybe add on some for more junior guys , hopefully being balanced out by those who do in fact, resign.
I'm jetlagged, I might not make sense. I don't care. its my opinion.
I don't think Hiro and the Like are having a go at you guys, but the extendees on A scale whom, after at least 20 - 30 years in the Company should be able to afford retirement by now surely. I'd rather see my bypass pay being spent by ME in Wan Chai than by others.
Commands are at 8.5 years as i write......... so , if they do blow out a bit to take into account maybe SOME of the ASL captains leaving their comfy base wherever they are to take up Pax commands in Smog Kong, it'll still be around 9 or 10 years. I'm not taking into account the RA65 so maybe add on some for more junior guys , hopefully being balanced out by those who do in fact, resign.
I'm jetlagged, I might not make sense. I don't care. its my opinion.
My straw poll tells me that there are not that many who would want to stay beyond 55 let alone to 65....at least in the small group of contemporaries who are still around.
May I suggest the AOA does its own ballot. Divide it into age groups...25-30, 30-35 etc and ask them. The company should do the same.
If it is only a very small group that wants to meet the Grim Reaper in HK or in a crew bunk, then it is a non-issue.
FWIW, I wouldn't want my kids flying with me when I am 65...and I'm sure they would be sensible enough to choose another airline if that was a reality.
Raven...I agree.
May I suggest the AOA does its own ballot. Divide it into age groups...25-30, 30-35 etc and ask them. The company should do the same.
If it is only a very small group that wants to meet the Grim Reaper in HK or in a crew bunk, then it is a non-issue.
FWIW, I wouldn't want my kids flying with me when I am 65...and I'm sure they would be sensible enough to choose another airline if that was a reality.
Raven...I agree.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 25th Mar 2008 at 04:31.
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I'm curious, do CX pay bypass pay to FOs who have been bypassed for a command slot but who have not actually demonstrated that they are ready for a command, i.e passed a command course?
If a bypassed FO subsequently does not make it the first time around does he/she have to return the bypass pay?
If a bypassed FO subsequently does not make it the first time around does he/she have to return the bypass pay?