The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines
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Any truth to the story that the new SEA pilots being hired are on a different contract? Possibly lower salary?
Could someone post the salaries for Captains and F/O's so our friends from SEA can see that they are being short changed.
Could someone post the salaries for Captains and F/O's so our friends from SEA can see that they are being short changed.
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Duh.......... Cos they're hiring more SEA pilots. Have to make room for them.
and.............
AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! 
and.............
Hello
Sorry to hear about people loosing jobs. Very unpleasant for all concerned.
However I think a few posters on this thread need a reality check. It doesn't matter if your are a US, Aust, NZ, UK or whatever. When you are a foreigner employed in someone else's country you are a guest worker, nothing more. When you are not wanted you are out, period. Why should a foreigner be kept on and a local loose his or her job. It don't work like that anymore.
Sorry to hear about people loosing jobs. Very unpleasant for all concerned.
However I think a few posters on this thread need a reality check. It doesn't matter if your are a US, Aust, NZ, UK or whatever. When you are a foreigner employed in someone else's country you are a guest worker, nothing more. When you are not wanted you are out, period. Why should a foreigner be kept on and a local loose his or her job. It don't work like that anymore.
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7G, just what the fvck is it you don't understand? Are you that retarded that you can't get a job somewhere else?
And below is a tack that the taxiway A captain should have tried.
And below is a tack that the taxiway A captain should have tried.
Quote:
Copilot 'passed out' before Garuda crash
By Jakarta correspondent Geoff Thompson and wires
Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:35pm AEDT
Updated Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:56pm AEDT
Five Australians were among those killed when the plane slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport.
Five Australians were among those killed when the plane slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport. (Reuters: Pentak Lanud Adisucipto, file photo)
The copilot of the Garuda plane that crashed in Yogjakarta last year is now claiming he blacked out until the aircraft came to a halt in a rice field.
Five Australians were among those killed when the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport, careered into a rice paddy field and exploded in flames on March 7, 2007.
In evidence given to police, Garuda copilot Gagam Saman Rohmana said that his plane was flying too fast when in crashed in Yogjakarta.
He repeatedly told pilot Marwoto Komar to "go around" rather than attempt to land on the airport's short runway at almost twice the normal speed.
But appearing as a witness at the criminal trial of Captain Komar, Mr Gagam withdrew that testimony and now says he fainted at an altitude of 2,500 feet and did not wake up until the plane was already on the runway.
Komar is fighting charges he deliberately crashed the jet, which carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.
Mr Gagam said he found himself upside down when it came to rest in a ricefield.
"When I yelled go around, after that I passed out not long after that. I regained consciousness when the plane was already past the runway," he said.
"I don't know when Marwoto said that 'hey, something is not right' because I was already unconscious. So at that time there was no coordination between the pilot and I."
Gagam, who has failed to show up at two previous court hearings, appeared to be ill during his three-hour court appearance, and almost fainted during a break.
He said he was influenced by media opinion in his earlier comments, and admitted he was unclear about the chronology of events and did not read his police statement fully before signing it.
Indonesia's National Transport Safety Committee last year found Komar ignored 15 automated alarms before he landed at about twice the safe speed.
Gagam, dressed in his pilot's uniform, said the plane started shaking after he attempted to reduce the speed by lifting a flap, and he yelled for the pilot to go around again before landing.
"But how many times, and whether the captain listened or not, I don't know because I was already unconscious," he said.
He said both he and the captain were upside down in their broken seats when the plane came to a halt, before they managed to escape the smoke-filled aircraft.
Both men tried to help a female passenger who was trapped.
"At that time I asked Captain Marwoto [for both of us] to ask forgiveness to God," he said.
The hearing continues with testimony expected from security officers at Jakarta airport.
Copilot 'passed out' before Garuda crash
By Jakarta correspondent Geoff Thompson and wires
Posted Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:35pm AEDT
Updated Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:56pm AEDT
Five Australians were among those killed when the plane slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport.
Five Australians were among those killed when the plane slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport. (Reuters: Pentak Lanud Adisucipto, file photo)
The copilot of the Garuda plane that crashed in Yogjakarta last year is now claiming he blacked out until the aircraft came to a halt in a rice field.
Five Australians were among those killed when the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport, careered into a rice paddy field and exploded in flames on March 7, 2007.
In evidence given to police, Garuda copilot Gagam Saman Rohmana said that his plane was flying too fast when in crashed in Yogjakarta.
He repeatedly told pilot Marwoto Komar to "go around" rather than attempt to land on the airport's short runway at almost twice the normal speed.
But appearing as a witness at the criminal trial of Captain Komar, Mr Gagam withdrew that testimony and now says he fainted at an altitude of 2,500 feet and did not wake up until the plane was already on the runway.
Komar is fighting charges he deliberately crashed the jet, which carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.
Mr Gagam said he found himself upside down when it came to rest in a ricefield.
"When I yelled go around, after that I passed out not long after that. I regained consciousness when the plane was already past the runway," he said.
"I don't know when Marwoto said that 'hey, something is not right' because I was already unconscious. So at that time there was no coordination between the pilot and I."
Gagam, who has failed to show up at two previous court hearings, appeared to be ill during his three-hour court appearance, and almost fainted during a break.
He said he was influenced by media opinion in his earlier comments, and admitted he was unclear about the chronology of events and did not read his police statement fully before signing it.
Indonesia's National Transport Safety Committee last year found Komar ignored 15 automated alarms before he landed at about twice the safe speed.
Gagam, dressed in his pilot's uniform, said the plane started shaking after he attempted to reduce the speed by lifting a flap, and he yelled for the pilot to go around again before landing.
"But how many times, and whether the captain listened or not, I don't know because I was already unconscious," he said.
He said both he and the captain were upside down in their broken seats when the plane came to a halt, before they managed to escape the smoke-filled aircraft.
Both men tried to help a female passenger who was trapped.
"At that time I asked Captain Marwoto [for both of us] to ask forgiveness to God," he said.
The hearing continues with testimony expected from security officers at Jakarta airport.
Last edited by Hoofharted; 29th Oct 2008 at 15:17.
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So not just pathetic pilots but pathetic liars also, very endearing qualities 
Double anchor :
No, In my country you would have been made redundant in last on first off order, not by nationality........FACT !!
Double anchor :
No, In my country you would have been made redundant in last on first off order, not by nationality........FACT !!
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The answer is simple.
Just fire all those who have a balls enough to stand up for themselves.
Hire like minded monkeys that will obey or lie and decieve -
The behaviour of HKA management is so pathetic and child like.
Just fire all those who have a balls enough to stand up for themselves.
Hire like minded monkeys that will obey or lie and decieve -
The behaviour of HKA management is so pathetic and child like.
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Fooey, just what country do you mean by "my country"?
Unless 'your country' is a European Union country and you are talking about nationals of other countries within the European Union, I very much doubt the truth of your statement.
Unless 'your country' is a European Union country and you are talking about nationals of other countries within the European Union, I very much doubt the truth of your statement.
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Unless 'your country' is a European Union country and you are talking about nationals of other countries within the European Union, I very much doubt the truth of your statement.
Your continued attempt to defend the indefensible merely continues to remove any doubt that you and your mates are complete and utter ignorant morons.
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Hoofharted,
Ha! There it is, you know me not, but you call me a moron.
Insults are used by small children when they know they are doomed to lose an argument.
The point here is nationality and/or citizenship, not race.
Do you really believe that a Hong Kong citizen can get and hold a job in any of the countries that you mention ?
What we have now in Hong Kong is ill-mannered ungrateful cheap migrant pilot labour, from all parts of the globe, that is pricing most local pilots out of the market.
Ha! There it is, you know me not, but you call me a moron.
Insults are used by small children when they know they are doomed to lose an argument.
The point here is nationality and/or citizenship, not race.
Do you really believe that a Hong Kong citizen can get and hold a job in any of the countries that you mention ?
What we have now in Hong Kong is ill-mannered ungrateful cheap migrant pilot labour, from all parts of the globe, that is pricing most local pilots out of the market.
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Guava, I direct you to your own comments. They are formed from both parochial ignorance and a desire to try and defend local customs that have absolutely no place in modern aviation. You accuse a person of lieing and when proved that infact it is YOU who is wrong, you trot out an entirely predictable and "face-saving" type of post. Just admit that you are wrong, that the civilised world will and does protect minority groups when required. If you were a citizen of any of the afore-mentioned countries you would be dealt with on merit and merit only. That is the LAW of the land. Do you have that here in Hong Kong?
Second. You have NO aviation industry here in Hong Kong without the expat contingent. Infact Hong Kong itself would not exist without the expat contingent both past and present. If you are concerned about "cheap labour" pricing the local pilot out of existance, it most certainly does not come from any of the countries that I have mentioned in my previous post.
No Guava, "I know you not" neither do I have to nor would I particularly want to, your posts are enough to illustrate that you argue from a position of envy and inferiority, and that my poor fellow is your cross to bear. All I am concerned about is people I know who are of stout heart and mind and of good professional standing, being "done over" by people who are both lacking in skill and professional fortitude, employed only to promote
. If you could get your head out of your parochial arze-hole and look at the reality of the situation, you might realise that most of us "westerners" are trying to advance this industry here in Hong Kong for all races, colours and creeds.
Unfortunately people like you will always approach any conversation from the "small man" perspective. You don't need to waist your time trying to get even, just (like the rest of us) get ahead.
Second. You have NO aviation industry here in Hong Kong without the expat contingent. Infact Hong Kong itself would not exist without the expat contingent both past and present. If you are concerned about "cheap labour" pricing the local pilot out of existance, it most certainly does not come from any of the countries that I have mentioned in my previous post.
No Guava, "I know you not" neither do I have to nor would I particularly want to, your posts are enough to illustrate that you argue from a position of envy and inferiority, and that my poor fellow is your cross to bear. All I am concerned about is people I know who are of stout heart and mind and of good professional standing, being "done over" by people who are both lacking in skill and professional fortitude, employed only to promote
cheap migrant pilot labour, from all parts of the globe, that is pricing most local pilots out of the market.
Unfortunately people like you will always approach any conversation from the "small man" perspective. You don't need to waist your time trying to get even, just (like the rest of us) get ahead.
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cheap migrant pilot labour
Jeez it must really burn you up to see all these " cheap migrants " getting huge amounts of money to buy a house or rent, and to be perfectly honest, it is the only reason I am here, otherwise you could stick your country ( and its pollution ) up your backside.
But you are right on one thing, you would'nt get a job in " my " country, we have no requirement for average to poor pilots.
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Fooey,
Yours is an interesting post. Thanks.
We know your country,Australia, denies pilot work permits for nationals of all countries (except of course New Zealand) . I suppose that means to say, that all pilots from Canada, USA, France, UK, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela etcetera are all considered average or below average.
You say “otherwise you could stick your country”. That is good in at least you admit it is our country, or territory.
Now lets get to the jealousy angle. Did you hear of the man who had two children one two years older than the other? In a fit of benevolence he decided to give them both monthly pocket money for the first time. The amount for the older was to be one dollar per month and the amount for the younger was to be 40 cents.
The older looked at his pocket money to see how much it was and saw one dollar. Those who have children will know that his next action was to look and see how much pocket money his younger brother had. When he saw his brother had so much less, he was very happy with his money. He smiled and said “Thank you Dadda”. Not exactly relevant to this case but for the interest of those who might wonder how this story continued, the younger son looked at the substantially bigger money of his brother and was really envious. The younger boy was thinking how he would like to have a dollar rather than 40 cents. The wise Dadda said, “When you are as old as your brother is now, you can also have one dollar per month." So the use of jealousy and envy made both boys happy.
I’m not falling for it. I say the salary of local pilots should always be a bit less than foreign pilots so that in any economic downturn it will also make economic sense to lay off foreign pilots and retain all local pilots.
Fooey seems to be very proud of his housing allowance. I wonder how much it is. Even if I did know I would not publish it here. No need to help any alimony chasers. But how is he and the rest (I want to include all other pilots of same company) using this fabulous (?) housing allowance.
Option 1
Buy or rent spacious apartment in area of slightly less air pollution good for self and family. Children going to school in Australian International School,car, own sail boat in one of our excellent yacht clubs. Faithful four legged friend at home who gets regular extended walks in our excellent (apart from the air pillution) country parks .Walking his dog reduces pilots blood pressure. Good for long life
Downsides:
High costs. Just add it all up.
Bought spacious apartment: Loss due to falling value is probably greater than compensation per month.
Renting spacious apartment: Rent is dead money.
[Option 1 Not recommended for cheap migrants]
Option 2
Secure crashpad in Hong Kong at minimum cost. Very small rental unit in remote inconvenient area. Or perhaps share a place bigger place in more convenient location. and hotbed it with other workmates. Pocket most of housing allowance provided that no receipts required. Console oneself about poor living conditions by spending 10% of housing allowance at Fenwicks.
Send maximum amount of money home to pay alimony, mortgage, grocery bills, food for dog you almost never see.
[Option 2 recommended for cheap migrants]
Is this option 2 the life you dreamed of when you decided to be a pilot?
Which option are most of the guys following?
I say “cheap” because if you compare the total monthly compensation now with what it was for expatriates working for non CX companies 18 years ago in 1990, you will find that the Hong Kong Dollar amount is about the same.
Look how inflation has eroded the value of dollars in that time.
Yes , Cheap Migrant Labour !
QED
Yours is an interesting post. Thanks.
We know your country,Australia, denies pilot work permits for nationals of all countries (except of course New Zealand) . I suppose that means to say, that all pilots from Canada, USA, France, UK, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela etcetera are all considered average or below average.
You say “otherwise you could stick your country”. That is good in at least you admit it is our country, or territory.
Now lets get to the jealousy angle. Did you hear of the man who had two children one two years older than the other? In a fit of benevolence he decided to give them both monthly pocket money for the first time. The amount for the older was to be one dollar per month and the amount for the younger was to be 40 cents.
The older looked at his pocket money to see how much it was and saw one dollar. Those who have children will know that his next action was to look and see how much pocket money his younger brother had. When he saw his brother had so much less, he was very happy with his money. He smiled and said “Thank you Dadda”. Not exactly relevant to this case but for the interest of those who might wonder how this story continued, the younger son looked at the substantially bigger money of his brother and was really envious. The younger boy was thinking how he would like to have a dollar rather than 40 cents. The wise Dadda said, “When you are as old as your brother is now, you can also have one dollar per month." So the use of jealousy and envy made both boys happy.
I’m not falling for it. I say the salary of local pilots should always be a bit less than foreign pilots so that in any economic downturn it will also make economic sense to lay off foreign pilots and retain all local pilots.
Fooey seems to be very proud of his housing allowance. I wonder how much it is. Even if I did know I would not publish it here. No need to help any alimony chasers. But how is he and the rest (I want to include all other pilots of same company) using this fabulous (?) housing allowance.
Option 1
Buy or rent spacious apartment in area of slightly less air pollution good for self and family. Children going to school in Australian International School,car, own sail boat in one of our excellent yacht clubs. Faithful four legged friend at home who gets regular extended walks in our excellent (apart from the air pillution) country parks .Walking his dog reduces pilots blood pressure. Good for long life
Downsides:
High costs. Just add it all up.
Bought spacious apartment: Loss due to falling value is probably greater than compensation per month.
Renting spacious apartment: Rent is dead money.
[Option 1 Not recommended for cheap migrants]
Option 2
Secure crashpad in Hong Kong at minimum cost. Very small rental unit in remote inconvenient area. Or perhaps share a place bigger place in more convenient location. and hotbed it with other workmates. Pocket most of housing allowance provided that no receipts required. Console oneself about poor living conditions by spending 10% of housing allowance at Fenwicks.
Send maximum amount of money home to pay alimony, mortgage, grocery bills, food for dog you almost never see.
[Option 2 recommended for cheap migrants]
Is this option 2 the life you dreamed of when you decided to be a pilot?
Which option are most of the guys following?
I say “cheap” because if you compare the total monthly compensation now with what it was for expatriates working for non CX companies 18 years ago in 1990, you will find that the Hong Kong Dollar amount is about the same.
Look how inflation has eroded the value of dollars in that time.
Yes , Cheap Migrant Labour !
QED
Last edited by Guava Tree; 2nd Nov 2008 at 06:38.
Guava Tree
That is rubbish. The reality is that there are pilots in Australia from many nationalities including the nationals you mention. I personally know of a number from Canada, the US and the UK and only recently some of the regionals like REX, National Jet and Qantas Link have been actively recruiting out of South Africa because of the chronic pilot shortage in Australia. They even interviewed in some of the Eastern European countries and if there was a surplus of pilots in Asia too, (which there isn’t) they would be recruiting here as well. If you still don’t believe me then I suggest you have a look at the Department of Immigration and Citizenship’s web sight. The occupation of “Pilot-Aircraft Pilot” is one of the professional occupations that may be nominated under the “Employer Nomination Scheme” and the airlines over the last few years have been using it.
Skilled Occupation List (SOL) and Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL)
As for you views on redundancy, all airlines in Australia will lay off pilots in reverse seniority order. It is illegal under the “Anti Discrimination Act” to lay off any employees because off nationality, race, age, sex or religion, period. Your argument that foreigners should be laid off first at HKA is flawed as you could count the locals on one hand. Almost all their pilots come from Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Indonesia and Singapore. I therefore ask you, is it only by chance that in the last year almost all the pilots laid off by HKA have been Caucasian or has it been racially motivated. It certainly hasn’t been to preserve the jobs of locals as there virtually aren’t any.
We know your country,Australia, denies pilot work permits for nationals of all countries (except of course New Zealand) . I suppose that means to say, that all pilots from Canada, USA, France, UK, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela etcetera are all considered average or below average.
Skilled Occupation List (SOL) and Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL)
I say the salary of local pilots should always be a bit less than foreign pilots so that in any economic downturn it will also make economic sense to lay off foreign pilots and retain all local pilots.
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I therefore ask you, is it only by chance that in the last year almost all the pilots laid off by HKA have been Caucasian or has it been racially motivated. It certainly hasn’t been to preserve the jobs of locals as there virtually aren’t any.
You are absolutly spot on there 404 but unfortunately the vilification and rants on this forum and thread has probably not helped the cause. Not good CRM, know when to keep the mouth shut even if you don't like what is going on.
You are absolutly spot on there 404 but unfortunately the vilification and rants on this forum and thread has probably not helped the cause. Not good CRM, know when to keep the mouth shut even if you don't like what is going on.
itwilldoatrip
Yes it is unfortunate though I can understand it.
You are absolutly spot on there 404 but unfortunately the vilification and rants on this forum and thread has probably not helped the cause.
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Well there seems to have been a bit of cleaning up on this thread with some of the more objectionable remarks having been wisely deleted by their authors.
Is it now agreed then that local Hong Kong pilots, no matter their number, do matter, and that, in general, in case of continued economic downturn, as pilots of the host country, they should be the last to be laid off, OK ?
Is it now agreed then that local Hong Kong pilots, no matter their number, do matter, and that, in general, in case of continued economic downturn, as pilots of the host country, they should be the last to be laid off, OK ?
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Guavatree,
I've just had a look at the October roster (before the 10 were sacked) and counted 51 Captains and 39 FOs. Of those 90 pilots, less than 5 would be locals. You're way off the mark with what's actually happening in this company.
I've just had a look at the October roster (before the 10 were sacked) and counted 51 Captains and 39 FOs. Of those 90 pilots, less than 5 would be locals. You're way off the mark with what's actually happening in this company.
Guava Tree
You haven’t answered my question from post #460. How can you have local jobs for local pilots in HKA when there are hardly any in the first place? Secondly if HKA wants to buck the internationally accepted practice in most companies, not just aviation, of last on first off, good luck in attracting people when you need them later on. Hong Kong can’t supply all the pilots it needs and therefore heavily depends on expat pilots. You want to see how difficult it will get to find new expat pilots if HKA continues down this blatantly racist line of workforce mismanagement. The aviation industry is very small and those with any experience will avoid them like the plague.
You haven’t answered my question from post #460. How can you have local jobs for local pilots in HKA when there are hardly any in the first place? Secondly if HKA wants to buck the internationally accepted practice in most companies, not just aviation, of last on first off, good luck in attracting people when you need them later on. Hong Kong can’t supply all the pilots it needs and therefore heavily depends on expat pilots. You want to see how difficult it will get to find new expat pilots if HKA continues down this blatantly racist line of workforce mismanagement. The aviation industry is very small and those with any experience will avoid them like the plague.