Resignations at KA
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
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Hearing lots about " Back On Board". When will this masterpiece of management stratergy be released to the plebs? There must be a lot of pressure on it. Imagine if they get this one wrong what morale will be like. It really is a lot of sh!t to put up with to get a narrow body command with one of the most poorly organised GA outfits going. Not sure what the incentive is for the junior guys to hang around. 320 commands are a dime a dozen everywhere else in the world.
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'Back on Board'........ the Titanic.... no thanks!
The once rudderless ship has aquired a rudder in order to steer itself into China again. Unfortunately, while installing the rudder they drilled a rather large hole in its side & I'm afraid 'bilge pumps... ahhh.... out of stock'.
Lifejackets available for all on level 1, I'm afraid none big enough on level 2. Lifejackets are orange, red & white.
The once rudderless ship has aquired a rudder in order to steer itself into China again. Unfortunately, while installing the rudder they drilled a rather large hole in its side & I'm afraid 'bilge pumps... ahhh.... out of stock'.
Lifejackets available for all on level 1, I'm afraid none big enough on level 2. Lifejackets are orange, red & white.
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Back On Board is a rumoured upcoming KA management policy. It will be a a kind of detente of sorts. It is a likely realisation that things have gone too far and some sort of proactivity essential.
It may even be an urgent back peddling approach forced on a reluctant KA management by the new owners. Of recent, the situation almost escalated, with KA management recommending sackings of problem pilots. With resignations trickling in, this policy seems to have been abandoned. And the situation has become so dire and morale so low, problem pilots are spread across the entire pilot demographic group.
At a guess Back On Board would be seperate to current pay negotiations.It will entail an end to open hostility and obstructionism from Personnel Dept and friends. It will cost the Company nothing but will be a severe loss of face to two senior managers in particular.
Dragonair was made lean and as overpriced as possible for sale to CX. Some current managers are culpable. The damage is obvious and the victims have been staff. The ball is in managements' court.
Back On Board?
It may even be an urgent back peddling approach forced on a reluctant KA management by the new owners. Of recent, the situation almost escalated, with KA management recommending sackings of problem pilots. With resignations trickling in, this policy seems to have been abandoned. And the situation has become so dire and morale so low, problem pilots are spread across the entire pilot demographic group.
At a guess Back On Board would be seperate to current pay negotiations.It will entail an end to open hostility and obstructionism from Personnel Dept and friends. It will cost the Company nothing but will be a severe loss of face to two senior managers in particular.
Dragonair was made lean and as overpriced as possible for sale to CX. Some current managers are culpable. The damage is obvious and the victims have been staff. The ball is in managements' court.
Back On Board?
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It is going to be fascinating to see what they are going to come up with to improve morale, while offering us a pay cut at the same time! This is going to be a chuckle if nothing else! 
Whats the bet Kenny has lost patience with the resident managers responsible for this mess, and has told them to get it fixed. This program will be a true reflection of their collective management skills. I for one cant wait to see their Pièce de résistance!
(Or could that be 'swan song'?)
Whats the bet Kenny has lost patience with the resident managers responsible for this mess, and has told them to get it fixed. This program will be a true reflection of their collective management skills. I for one cant wait to see their Pièce de résistance!
(Or could that be 'swan song'?)
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I wonder how Kenny and the bosses at Cathay will react when they find out the GMO, GMP, and MCR have been knowingly breaking U.K. law by allowing staff with no right of abode or work permits to take up Manchester based positions.
They will certainly be in hot water when the U.K. Border and Immigration Agency come knocking.
They will certainly be in hot water when the U.K. Border and Immigration Agency come knocking.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ka500..one trouble-maker tried to stop a colleague from taking a MAN command on the grounds his UK residency may be doubtful and actively went to management to undermine him). Charming act of bastardry. You wouldn't know anything of this? We are our own worst enemies without the KA mismanagers interfering.
In any case, you don't need UK residency/right of abode to work ex MAN. You can live in various countries in the EU and simply op ex MAN. Your info is incorrect.
And the mismanagers trying to get staff Back on Board?
It takes more than words to undo the mess that they have put us in.
In any case, you don't need UK residency/right of abode to work ex MAN. You can live in various countries in the EU and simply op ex MAN. Your info is incorrect.
And the mismanagers trying to get staff Back on Board?
It takes more than words to undo the mess that they have put us in.
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It's EU citizenship that is required to work out of MAN. Any European (EU) passport holder can be legally based in Man.
Cathay has recently sacked at least one after finding out they had lied about their EU residency status
Cathay has recently sacked at least one after finding out they had lied about their EU residency status
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A. Le Rhone,
you are completely incorrect. You must remember that you will be BASED in the UK, not just operating "ex-uk". The basing requires the right to work in the UK. Inciter, Some of the recently admitted (New) countries dont have the right to work in the UK, so EU citizenship alone is not the answer.
A list of the requirements are published on the Immigration/Visa website. It seems of late that certain managers have been a bit lax in checking the details of a couple of individuals. The MGT believed it was the responsibility of the individual, (funny how they never thought that when there was no problem finding suitable Crew).
However, now the proverbial is about to hit the fan big time. The last thing CX/KA needs is to be caught riding rough-shod over UK immigration rules so soon after being caught with the pants down by the Inland Revenue. So as the mismanagers run for cover, those who have lied about the right to work in the UK can expect a swift kick up the..... .
you are completely incorrect. You must remember that you will be BASED in the UK, not just operating "ex-uk". The basing requires the right to work in the UK. Inciter, Some of the recently admitted (New) countries dont have the right to work in the UK, so EU citizenship alone is not the answer.
A list of the requirements are published on the Immigration/Visa website. It seems of late that certain managers have been a bit lax in checking the details of a couple of individuals. The MGT believed it was the responsibility of the individual, (funny how they never thought that when there was no problem finding suitable Crew).
However, now the proverbial is about to hit the fan big time. The last thing CX/KA needs is to be caught riding rough-shod over UK immigration rules so soon after being caught with the pants down by the Inland Revenue. So as the mismanagers run for cover, those who have lied about the right to work in the UK can expect a swift kick up the..... .
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from the MAN based KA crew website where this discussion going on as well
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Fr...=1018721067826
From the UK Visa section website on right of Abode.
And:
Who requires a work permit?
Anyone who wishes to work in the UK and who is not a NATIONAL of the European Economic Area (EEA). EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom and Switzerland.
It is interesting to see it states NATIONAL, it does not state resident.
National means passport holder, residency means nothing for a work permit.
In most countries in the EU you cannot have 2 nationalities, so time to make a choice for some.
For me as an EU resident, who cannot work in USA/Africa/australia/south america/rest of the world, its simple,
you have the right to work in EU, how you got that right I do not care and you are very welcome in MAN, or you do not have the right and stay away!
thats what the EU is about
S.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Fr...=1018721067826
From the UK Visa section website on right of Abode.
And:
Who requires a work permit?
Anyone who wishes to work in the UK and who is not a NATIONAL of the European Economic Area (EEA). EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom and Switzerland.
It is interesting to see it states NATIONAL, it does not state resident.
National means passport holder, residency means nothing for a work permit.
In most countries in the EU you cannot have 2 nationalities, so time to make a choice for some.
For me as an EU resident, who cannot work in USA/Africa/australia/south america/rest of the world, its simple,
you have the right to work in EU, how you got that right I do not care and you are very welcome in MAN, or you do not have the right and stay away!
thats what the EU is about
S.
Last edited by shimmydamper; 10th Sep 2007 at 07:48. Reason: URL did not work
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Next year MAN based will pay UK PAYE, you sure as heck need a work permit and NI number for that.
To employ someone illegally is a criminal offence on the part of the employer.
To employ someone illegally is a criminal offence on the part of the employer.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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@Vermin
Tax free base!! you make me laugh!
We all pay HKG tax to start with
Most guys on MAN base who live in UK have payed taxes since the beginning of the ops.
And the others with residence outside UK, file tax with the home country, and most have a double tax agreement. so end up paying the difference/only HKG tax or really lucky (60days) nothing.
For me UK payee means the 3rd tax authority I have to deal with, It also means we fall under UK law<- see above comments about work permit etc
521
Tax free base!! you make me laugh!
We all pay HKG tax to start with
Most guys on MAN base who live in UK have payed taxes since the beginning of the ops.
And the others with residence outside UK, file tax with the home country, and most have a double tax agreement. so end up paying the difference/only HKG tax or really lucky (60days) nothing.
For me UK payee means the 3rd tax authority I have to deal with, It also means we fall under UK law<- see above comments about work permit etc
521
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Seriously, that has to be 5 gone from the HKRO, wasnt there only 7 to begin with? Successful contract with a minimum of 50% leaving in less than 6 months. Surely TW cant still put a positive spin on this failure when the facts are on the table.... Good to see the locals grow some b@lls and move to greener pastures!
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Lowkoon
Please try and humour me. Just imagine that you're home, Sydney, Melbourne, London, wherever it may be, This is your home and it gives you the lifestyle that you treasure. That city is actually a country in itself with its own government.
This state only has two major airlines, and if you're at one, you can't join the other. You're a local and you have many expat brothers who are earning the same as you, but if you include all extra benefits, it nearly doubles the amount, moneywise. The local pilot body is the minority and if the expat majority is having a hard time getting what it wants,you know the local minority is hardly likely to make any inroads. You can put up with this as you have no other option. Yes you can move abroad, but this place has a low tax base and no matter what your expat brothers have to say about it, you're pretty well stuck here . The money and conditions aren't that great, but what are you to do, apart from move away. Something which isn't that appealing as you're at home and all family and friends are here.
So you're biding your time, and next thing you know another option appears, another carrier, one that treats everyone on an equal footing, AND the money is better for a local than at your present carrier. What would you do..after weighing up all the pros and cons, probably go for it, right?
So there you are, maybe talking to an expat brother, some guy that you have no problems with, since its the company's fault that everyone is pissed, tell them that you're leaving for greener pastures..and you here him say "congratulations..and finally you've grown some balls.."
What would you say to your expat friend after hearing a comment like that? An honest answer would be appreciated as maybe I have misread your meaning.
Please try and humour me. Just imagine that you're home, Sydney, Melbourne, London, wherever it may be, This is your home and it gives you the lifestyle that you treasure. That city is actually a country in itself with its own government.
This state only has two major airlines, and if you're at one, you can't join the other. You're a local and you have many expat brothers who are earning the same as you, but if you include all extra benefits, it nearly doubles the amount, moneywise. The local pilot body is the minority and if the expat majority is having a hard time getting what it wants,you know the local minority is hardly likely to make any inroads. You can put up with this as you have no other option. Yes you can move abroad, but this place has a low tax base and no matter what your expat brothers have to say about it, you're pretty well stuck here . The money and conditions aren't that great, but what are you to do, apart from move away. Something which isn't that appealing as you're at home and all family and friends are here.
So you're biding your time, and next thing you know another option appears, another carrier, one that treats everyone on an equal footing, AND the money is better for a local than at your present carrier. What would you do..after weighing up all the pros and cons, probably go for it, right?
So there you are, maybe talking to an expat brother, some guy that you have no problems with, since its the company's fault that everyone is pissed, tell them that you're leaving for greener pastures..and you here him say "congratulations..and finally you've grown some balls.."
What would you say to your expat friend after hearing a comment like that? An honest answer would be appreciated as maybe I have misread your meaning.
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100% correct Rookie.
The locals have been mistreated, certainly by KA and most probably by CX. It is very true that that was little or no option open to them until very recently. I applaud those that have resigned. It has nothing to do with b@lls, and everything to do with opportunity, and dare I say it, memories of how poorly they were treated.
While on the subject of opportunity I shall continue with my thoughts......
CX and KA "A" scales came into being because of a shortage of skilled labour willing to move to Hong Kong almost 2 decades ago. "A" scale pay was the going Hong Kong rate for some 10 yrs. "B" scale has been around for about 15 years. "C"adet scale has been here for about 8 yrs, and in KA, cadets were re-introduced to address the high turnover rate of expats on B scale.
It is probably worth noting that neither KA nor CX have current management that was present when A scale was introduced. They do not know the costs (losses) associated with keeping aircraft on the ground. The current management teams of both airlines are intent on simply containing salaries, beliveing this will increase their profits. They believe that the change in retirement age to 65 will fix their crewing problems and keep salaries low. This will not occur. Both companies shall lose experienced crews to retirement and other operators as they continue to treat their crews poorly. This exodus will only escalate with time.
If, and it is a big if, half the peoiple who talk of leaving KA do, then they shall see a turnover rate of around 5% in around 9 months.
Now that is not very big by anyones imagination. However, trying to find experienced crews is becoming more and more difficult. Even now KA is cancelling flights due to crew numbers, and soon this will be a chronic problem for them.
In order to avoid the losses of aircraft sitting on the ground, I suggest that big increases in salary are not that far away. They will be paid to stop the rot and attract experienced crews.
Opportunity for all is not that far away!
Drunkenair
Cheers (hic)
The locals have been mistreated, certainly by KA and most probably by CX. It is very true that that was little or no option open to them until very recently. I applaud those that have resigned. It has nothing to do with b@lls, and everything to do with opportunity, and dare I say it, memories of how poorly they were treated.
While on the subject of opportunity I shall continue with my thoughts......
CX and KA "A" scales came into being because of a shortage of skilled labour willing to move to Hong Kong almost 2 decades ago. "A" scale pay was the going Hong Kong rate for some 10 yrs. "B" scale has been around for about 15 years. "C"adet scale has been here for about 8 yrs, and in KA, cadets were re-introduced to address the high turnover rate of expats on B scale.
It is probably worth noting that neither KA nor CX have current management that was present when A scale was introduced. They do not know the costs (losses) associated with keeping aircraft on the ground. The current management teams of both airlines are intent on simply containing salaries, beliveing this will increase their profits. They believe that the change in retirement age to 65 will fix their crewing problems and keep salaries low. This will not occur. Both companies shall lose experienced crews to retirement and other operators as they continue to treat their crews poorly. This exodus will only escalate with time.
If, and it is a big if, half the peoiple who talk of leaving KA do, then they shall see a turnover rate of around 5% in around 9 months.
Now that is not very big by anyones imagination. However, trying to find experienced crews is becoming more and more difficult. Even now KA is cancelling flights due to crew numbers, and soon this will be a chronic problem for them.
In order to avoid the losses of aircraft sitting on the ground, I suggest that big increases in salary are not that far away. They will be paid to stop the rot and attract experienced crews.
Opportunity for all is not that far away!
Drunkenair
Cheers (hic)
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fearookie, agree with everything you have said. Lets look at some facts, you can count on one hand the ammount of locals who joined KA with the minimum requirements to fly for Dragon, so in effect, this is their "GA", this is their training ground. Probably why they dont get the same salary. (Note I didnt say 'deserve'). They deserve the same salary when they have at least the minimum requirements expected of new hire expat FO's. Not before. I think thats fair. But they dont get the same pay, nor have they done much about it either. The only real option available to them, if they want to improve their lot, is to leave. We are talking about a pilot group that the majority wont join the union as it may appear 'unfavourable' to the company.
I will stand by what I said. It takes some Kahunas to stand up for yourself, and do something to change your lot. These guys are leaving the company that gave them their start in aviation, and it doesnt matter how you want to say it, that takes guts or balls or courage the likes of which we havent seen until now. We are finally seeing some of the boys doing this instead of waiting for miracles, and I applaud them for growing some balls and doing something, instead of just complaining that they are being treated like second rate citizens. Or if you would prefer me to say, "I applaud their courage".
Hope that clarifies my opinion for you.
I will stand by what I said. It takes some Kahunas to stand up for yourself, and do something to change your lot. These guys are leaving the company that gave them their start in aviation, and it doesnt matter how you want to say it, that takes guts or balls or courage the likes of which we havent seen until now. We are finally seeing some of the boys doing this instead of waiting for miracles, and I applaud them for growing some balls and doing something, instead of just complaining that they are being treated like second rate citizens. Or if you would prefer me to say, "I applaud their courage".
Hope that clarifies my opinion for you.
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More resignations this week. Another yesterday and did the rumoured few today eventuate?
"If you don't like it here, piss off and show us your feet."
I think they are taking you literally Red Leader.
"If you don't like it here, piss off and show us your feet."
I think they are taking you literally Red Leader.
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Lowkoon
I'm going by your logic and not looking for an argument, but then a lot of chaps that AREN'T on local pilot terms are also complaining and not leaving? So i guess it would be just as easy to say to them that they should also show some courage. In fact, wouldn't it even be easier for them to show courage and leave if HK is not their home?
Doing something about it? we pay for our rent or mortgage, by ourselves, nothing given by the company and the union would like some money. Unions have traditionally had little effect in HK and so it maybe a cultural thing, but why should one join? I mean on this forum there are many guys unhappy with the proposed package, and thats the MAJORITY view, our lot who are the MINORITY, aren't going to get much and leaving is the best option. Again, not an argument but it would be a good time now to sell the idea of why one should join the union, as I reckon this is your idea of doing something about it(please correct me if I'm wrong).
Nextly, rightly or wrongly, expats are complaining and its hard for locals to sympathise when one does not get housing or the 15% gratuity. So now we've got an option that is treating every pilot equally, and its base is our home, so we're showing the courage to go, but this was probably an option to ALL the KA DEP's because they had the hours to come here, or go anywhere in the world, including their home..so if you're going to standby your statement, I reckon it should be aimed at ALL pilots who are unhappy and are leaving because they're all showing the courage to take up change. Its even EASIER for expats to show courage since they are much more attractive with the hours and command time that they're probably required to have before joining here.
So i guess my point is, its not just locals who are complaining, but insult to injury when we're the ones who are pointed out for complaining when in fact we've probably got the worst package of the lot!
So if you've just like to rephrase and say that you'd congratulate EVERYONE whose grown some balls..
I'm going by your logic and not looking for an argument, but then a lot of chaps that AREN'T on local pilot terms are also complaining and not leaving? So i guess it would be just as easy to say to them that they should also show some courage. In fact, wouldn't it even be easier for them to show courage and leave if HK is not their home?
Doing something about it? we pay for our rent or mortgage, by ourselves, nothing given by the company and the union would like some money. Unions have traditionally had little effect in HK and so it maybe a cultural thing, but why should one join? I mean on this forum there are many guys unhappy with the proposed package, and thats the MAJORITY view, our lot who are the MINORITY, aren't going to get much and leaving is the best option. Again, not an argument but it would be a good time now to sell the idea of why one should join the union, as I reckon this is your idea of doing something about it(please correct me if I'm wrong).
Nextly, rightly or wrongly, expats are complaining and its hard for locals to sympathise when one does not get housing or the 15% gratuity. So now we've got an option that is treating every pilot equally, and its base is our home, so we're showing the courage to go, but this was probably an option to ALL the KA DEP's because they had the hours to come here, or go anywhere in the world, including their home..so if you're going to standby your statement, I reckon it should be aimed at ALL pilots who are unhappy and are leaving because they're all showing the courage to take up change. Its even EASIER for expats to show courage since they are much more attractive with the hours and command time that they're probably required to have before joining here.
So i guess my point is, its not just locals who are complaining, but insult to injury when we're the ones who are pointed out for complaining when in fact we've probably got the worst package of the lot!
So if you've just like to rephrase and say that you'd congratulate EVERYONE whose grown some balls..