HK Based Freighter Crews, it has begun!
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Local Terms
The notice says Local terms apply. Can anyone be sure that if you sign over to this Hong Kong Base on Local terms as an F/O or Cpt weather or not you will be able to go back to Expat terms in the future????? For F/O's when you have done 3 years from the initial line check will you be able to bid HK Based Pax F/O or as a Cpt will you be able to bid Pax Cpt when your seniority will hold it????
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Interesting. I think CX is clutching at straws on this one. I suspect only those who are desperate to stay in, or move to, HKG would be interested(residency issues/commuters etc).
Mr G. On the other thread I think you are correct. Anyone signing anything these days needs to consider getting sound legal advice - whether it be Swish 266's rapid command entry (good luck old chap, but don't say you weren't warned) or anyone signing up to onshore companies and unwittingly signing away their statutory rights under the local labor laws etc. There are so many potential pitfalls that CX are conveniently failing to mention. It is only by open debate on these forums that many of these pitfalls are coming to light.
Mr G. On the other thread I think you are correct. Anyone signing anything these days needs to consider getting sound legal advice - whether it be Swish 266's rapid command entry (good luck old chap, but don't say you weren't warned) or anyone signing up to onshore companies and unwittingly signing away their statutory rights under the local labor laws etc. There are so many potential pitfalls that CX are conveniently failing to mention. It is only by open debate on these forums that many of these pitfalls are coming to light.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Dear Newbie
Newbie your statement
Yeah, well if only a certain pocket of 744 Captains would have the balls to say NO to flying the freighter (as many of them are entitled to).
I find it interesting to say the least how some folks always attempt to blame others for particular events and often have the facts wrong as well.
Firstly very few B744 Pax crew, Capt and FO have volunteered to fly the freighter, it is the underhanded way the company have changed the goal posts that if the point of concern. A large number of HKG 744 Capts are being rostered Freighter Flying without volunteering. When challenging Crew Control or management they are told that they are no longer able to take Temporary Basings if they elect not to fly freighter aircraft. Now if the AOA was to say do not fly freighter aircraft I am sure that would happen, crew would say no in large numbers however the company would probably stop temporary basings for all crew. That would be fair and equitable pain for all crew but could you imagine the squealing from the Airbus and 777 crew.
For those that point the finger at the B744 crew is not a matter of balls to say no it is a matter of the balancing the cost of saying no. I ask the question of what is your objective by suggesting that B744 Pax crew do not fly freighters.
There is a contary school of opinion that there is nothing wrong with B744 crew flying freighter aircraft for the Full and proper salary, the full and proper housing, eduction, travel funds and medical coverage. Almost to a man they have waited in line for their rightful turn in seniority to fly the B744, and along the way witnessed many acts of been undercut and seen many junior crew jump in and take a cheap freighter command.
Who is it you want to improve the COS for, is it the que jumpers who have the B744 freighter command after 2 years service, is it those that are going to jump in now and take the recently advertised slots. Most pilots are smart enough to know that this is a bad deal and they will not take it and CX will troll down the list untill they find the desparado they are looking for.
Just have the right group in your sights before you pull the trigger
Yeah, well if only a certain pocket of 744 Captains would have the balls to say NO to flying the freighter (as many of them are entitled to).
I find it interesting to say the least how some folks always attempt to blame others for particular events and often have the facts wrong as well.
Firstly very few B744 Pax crew, Capt and FO have volunteered to fly the freighter, it is the underhanded way the company have changed the goal posts that if the point of concern. A large number of HKG 744 Capts are being rostered Freighter Flying without volunteering. When challenging Crew Control or management they are told that they are no longer able to take Temporary Basings if they elect not to fly freighter aircraft. Now if the AOA was to say do not fly freighter aircraft I am sure that would happen, crew would say no in large numbers however the company would probably stop temporary basings for all crew. That would be fair and equitable pain for all crew but could you imagine the squealing from the Airbus and 777 crew.
For those that point the finger at the B744 crew is not a matter of balls to say no it is a matter of the balancing the cost of saying no. I ask the question of what is your objective by suggesting that B744 Pax crew do not fly freighters.
There is a contary school of opinion that there is nothing wrong with B744 crew flying freighter aircraft for the Full and proper salary, the full and proper housing, eduction, travel funds and medical coverage. Almost to a man they have waited in line for their rightful turn in seniority to fly the B744, and along the way witnessed many acts of been undercut and seen many junior crew jump in and take a cheap freighter command.
Who is it you want to improve the COS for, is it the que jumpers who have the B744 freighter command after 2 years service, is it those that are going to jump in now and take the recently advertised slots. Most pilots are smart enough to know that this is a bad deal and they will not take it and CX will troll down the list untill they find the desparado they are looking for.
Just have the right group in your sights before you pull the trigger
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Hi Cyril
A good point but should the AOA then also put a ban on people taking freighter commands? My understanding is that it is not currently frowned upon or if it is I have not been made aware of it.
I think that perhaps it would be a step in the right direction.
Jetset
A good point but should the AOA then also put a ban on people taking freighter commands? My understanding is that it is not currently frowned upon or if it is I have not been made aware of it.
I think that perhaps it would be a step in the right direction.
Jetset
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Perspective
I have discussed this with many a cx bretheren.
Those that oppose any pax pilot flying the freighter use the logic that it would in some way put pressure on the company during negotiations etc. This IMHO is not likely. If the freighter flying were to be gradually undermanned (as would be the case as people slowly stop flying the freighter) then the company would have time to force us by way of negative incentive, to fly the freighter.
So what exactly are we achieving by not flying the freighter ?
FG
Those that oppose any pax pilot flying the freighter use the logic that it would in some way put pressure on the company during negotiations etc. This IMHO is not likely. If the freighter flying were to be gradually undermanned (as would be the case as people slowly stop flying the freighter) then the company would have time to force us by way of negative incentive, to fly the freighter.
So what exactly are we achieving by not flying the freighter ?
FG
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My understanding is that it is not currently frowned upon or if it is I have not been made aware of it.
...Take the hint my man, I think it is pretty safe to say that it counts as a "frown".
And if you think the two aren't related then you need to open your eyes and smell the statistics.
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Okay, fair enough but there is no statement from the AOA to that effect and the management positively encourage it.
I have been encouraged to do it since I joined and I haven't heard any talk on the freighter fleet that would lead me to believe that it is understood to be out of seniority.
Is it AOA policy, CX pilots policy or what?
I have been encouraged to do it since I joined and I haven't heard any talk on the freighter fleet that would lead me to believe that it is understood to be out of seniority.
Is it AOA policy, CX pilots policy or what?
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Points taken. But we have to start somewhere and if you look at the crewlists for freighter flights, you will see how many pax Captains are flying the freighter. The AOA are probably too scared to put out any direction for fear of hurting our new found wonderful relationship with the company. NR may just have to write another DFO update expressing his disappointment in a further 'setback in relations'.
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These are FACTS
Hong Kong Based Line Capts flying at least one freighter pattern in September is just shy of 50%, this could not be described as a small pocket of crew. This does not include reserve callouts or C & T. Very few Europe and NAM pax crew are rostered freighter flights.
These are assumptions
The vast majority have not voluntered to fly the freighter. This is vastly different from one year ago, and is going to get worse as more B744F arrive and crew resign from CX Freighters. The reason based crew do not fly freighters is they are flat out covering the Hong Kong crew unavailable to fly pax aircraft because they fly a significant amount of freighters. It could be the other 50% that fly freighters in October.
Funny old thing we told them this would happen the day they announced the ASL debacle.
Hong Kong Based Line Capts flying at least one freighter pattern in September is just shy of 50%, this could not be described as a small pocket of crew. This does not include reserve callouts or C & T. Very few Europe and NAM pax crew are rostered freighter flights.
These are assumptions
The vast majority have not voluntered to fly the freighter. This is vastly different from one year ago, and is going to get worse as more B744F arrive and crew resign from CX Freighters. The reason based crew do not fly freighters is they are flat out covering the Hong Kong crew unavailable to fly pax aircraft because they fly a significant amount of freighters. It could be the other 50% that fly freighters in October.
Funny old thing we told them this would happen the day they announced the ASL debacle.
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If you want the AOA to come out and recommend things then tell them. Write in and say "tell people not to fly the freighter" or "how about contract compliance". Its a democracy - tell us what you want.
Gas guzzlers
