C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
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there are some very well thought out comments on this thread
Shame so much infighting however...
Someone posted a thread early on suggesting action. A NO vote I'm afraid will do very little. I have already spoken to a "few" quite in favour of this proposal.
USE YOUR SICK DAYS, NO G DAY CALL OUTS, DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE
and
just what will happen after the NO vote, and the second
What do we do then??? - We NEED TO GET TOGETHER
Shame so much infighting however...
Someone posted a thread early on suggesting action. A NO vote I'm afraid will do very little. I have already spoken to a "few" quite in favour of this proposal.
USE YOUR SICK DAYS, NO G DAY CALL OUTS, DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE
and
just what will happen after the NO vote, and the second
What do we do then??? - We NEED TO GET TOGETHER
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CoS 08
westcoastcapt
You wrote:
I must respectfully take issue with what you wrote and put forward a B-Scale perspective on this one.
Firstly, B-Scalers that accepted employment, joined on that deal because that was all that was on offer at the time. The reason that was all that was on offer was because the AOA GC representing the Cathay aircrew body at the time, allowed the Company to introduce them in return for a promise that A-Scales, as they became known, would remain untouched. A false promise as it turned out.
Secondly, the reality is that there are A-Scale colleagues of ours, as we speak, accepting less than B-Scale conditions on which to extend. A-Scale colleagues who do so, accept it because this is all that is on offer at this time.
The contrast between the two points, is that B-Scales have been in existence for 14 years without reaching the level of A-Scales, (and I am just talking remuneration here, not the plethora of other better conditions, the most significant being the A-Scale Provident Fund), whereas those A-Scale colleagues that have extended on less than B-Scales, will remarkably have their A-Scale salaries reinstated and be allowed to work an extra 10 years.
Can you see the disparity here, see the logic that makes it so, and sense the disbelief of the B-Scale community on appreciating this? The divisiveness that this creates, inevitably leads to some heated outbursts on the subject. This illustrates my point, when I say that we should strive for unity for the future.
Accepting a DEFO agreement along the lines of that which is proposed, would be to open up a similar can of worms in later years. If the Company wants to ditch ASL and take advantage of the synergies that a greater pool of pilots would create, then new joiner DEFOs, passenger or freighter, should join on passenger terms. Existing freighter captains and FOs should transfer to passenger terms. Precedent exists, since this is what used to happen before the creation of ASL when Cathay aircrew flew both passenger and freighter aircraft. We should not be made to pay for a mess that the Company created in the first place.
Accepting extensions to A-Scales, (especially bearing in mind from a B-Scaler’s point of view, that the package allows for comfortable retirement at age 55), to the probable detriment of junior colleagues’ promotion prospects, and without any protection along these lines, is not helpful.
There is a long way to go as far as what will happen with CoS 08 itself. But as I have said before, if we can walk a mile in each others shoes and understand each others position, then we will have a better chance of attaining something we can all live with, and hopefully it will result in an agreement structured toward unification for the good of all of us and the future aircrew body.
BScaler
You wrote:
Let's remember that those who joined in April 93 said they would do our jobs for less money. And those who joined ASL in 95 said they would again do the same job for even lesser money.
The sole reason that this new offer proposes 55+ at the same salary is because there is not a line up to accept the present offer at reduced salaries. Plain and simple! And they need these pilots if they wish to expand.
The sole reason that this new offer proposes 55+ at the same salary is because there is not a line up to accept the present offer at reduced salaries. Plain and simple! And they need these pilots if they wish to expand.
Firstly, B-Scalers that accepted employment, joined on that deal because that was all that was on offer at the time. The reason that was all that was on offer was because the AOA GC representing the Cathay aircrew body at the time, allowed the Company to introduce them in return for a promise that A-Scales, as they became known, would remain untouched. A false promise as it turned out.
Secondly, the reality is that there are A-Scale colleagues of ours, as we speak, accepting less than B-Scale conditions on which to extend. A-Scale colleagues who do so, accept it because this is all that is on offer at this time.
The contrast between the two points, is that B-Scales have been in existence for 14 years without reaching the level of A-Scales, (and I am just talking remuneration here, not the plethora of other better conditions, the most significant being the A-Scale Provident Fund), whereas those A-Scale colleagues that have extended on less than B-Scales, will remarkably have their A-Scale salaries reinstated and be allowed to work an extra 10 years.
Can you see the disparity here, see the logic that makes it so, and sense the disbelief of the B-Scale community on appreciating this? The divisiveness that this creates, inevitably leads to some heated outbursts on the subject. This illustrates my point, when I say that we should strive for unity for the future.
Accepting a DEFO agreement along the lines of that which is proposed, would be to open up a similar can of worms in later years. If the Company wants to ditch ASL and take advantage of the synergies that a greater pool of pilots would create, then new joiner DEFOs, passenger or freighter, should join on passenger terms. Existing freighter captains and FOs should transfer to passenger terms. Precedent exists, since this is what used to happen before the creation of ASL when Cathay aircrew flew both passenger and freighter aircraft. We should not be made to pay for a mess that the Company created in the first place.
Accepting extensions to A-Scales, (especially bearing in mind from a B-Scaler’s point of view, that the package allows for comfortable retirement at age 55), to the probable detriment of junior colleagues’ promotion prospects, and without any protection along these lines, is not helpful.
There is a long way to go as far as what will happen with CoS 08 itself. But as I have said before, if we can walk a mile in each others shoes and understand each others position, then we will have a better chance of attaining something we can all live with, and hopefully it will result in an agreement structured toward unification for the good of all of us and the future aircrew body.
BScaler
Last edited by BScaler; 12th Aug 2007 at 01:16. Reason: clarification
TO THE GENERAL COMMITTEE:
-I propose an immediate 15% payrise for the B scale officers across the board. (not including the 2% increase in HDP )
-A scale get the 1.8% increase in HDP
-Apon reaching 55 all A scale officers come back to B scale for their respective years of service. ( I guess that would be SCapt year 17? ) and get the same COS as B scale officers ( staff travel, medical, housing, LOL, education etc etc )
99% of all A scale have already accepted an extension on far less than that, considering what they have already fallen over themselves to accept I see this as quite a win.
But most importantly it gives the much needed payrise to B scale.
I THINK THIS MAY BE A LOT MORE ACCEPTABLE TO THE B- SCALERS.
-I propose an immediate 15% payrise for the B scale officers across the board. (not including the 2% increase in HDP )
-A scale get the 1.8% increase in HDP
-Apon reaching 55 all A scale officers come back to B scale for their respective years of service. ( I guess that would be SCapt year 17? ) and get the same COS as B scale officers ( staff travel, medical, housing, LOL, education etc etc )
99% of all A scale have already accepted an extension on far less than that, considering what they have already fallen over themselves to accept I see this as quite a win.
But most importantly it gives the much needed payrise to B scale.
I THINK THIS MAY BE A LOT MORE ACCEPTABLE TO THE B- SCALERS.
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A Scale Win
Watch this space .....
A scalers cash out of prov fund and take a base...this also screws new captains..
Stay under old COS to keep bypass pay? CX wont asses us so we will never even see one dollar of bypass anyway....
Gee I feel I am coming down with the Flu? any one feel the same?
A scalers cash out of prov fund and take a base...this also screws new captains..
Stay under old COS to keep bypass pay? CX wont asses us so we will never even see one dollar of bypass anyway....
Gee I feel I am coming down with the Flu? any one feel the same?
So many of the extendees thought the deal of extending on B scales was good, they get their PF at 55 and this salary was more icing on the cake for a few more years.
Well they must be tingling with anticipation with what they are about to get, 8 more years on A scale.........wow wee
I guess we are lucky the AOA didn't arrange backpay to age 55 for those already extended.
Well they must be tingling with anticipation with what they are about to get, 8 more years on A scale.........wow wee
I guess we are lucky the AOA didn't arrange backpay to age 55 for those already extended.
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pill and other non AOA members
I'm certainly not a fan of the AOA GC at the moment (especially if they recommend this sh!t deal), but I am a believer in having a voice regarding my CoS.
If you join the AOA today you will be a member in time to vote..... if you don't, please don't complain about your CoS ever again.
I'm certainly not a fan of the AOA GC at the moment (especially if they recommend this sh!t deal), but I am a believer in having a voice regarding my CoS.
If you join the AOA today you will be a member in time to vote..... if you don't, please don't complain about your CoS ever again.
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What a complete bunch of immature, self-defeating, envious silly buggers. This must be the ONLY airline in the world that employs pilots that ACTIVELY seek to bring down the top level of pay and benefits within that airline! Regardless of how 'envious' we are of the A scale, to seek it's demise is the height of career expectation suicide. To hopefully live in the Penthouse one day,...there actually has to BE a penthouse to move into....
In case most of your silly little minds haven't figure it out yet, the A scalers are not the problem...the company is the problem. They are rolling waist-deep in cash caused by record revenues and record profits. The only hope we as B-scalers have of ever seeing better pay and conditions is to make sure that such things continue to exist at the airline. Go ahead and bring down the A-scale. What will you be left with then? An airline that has now established an even LOWER top level of salary scales. In addition, you will then all become, by defualt, the 'new A-scale'. What do you think management will seek to do with your pay and benefits when you are now considered the 'top-scale'.
The company has more than enough money to both pay for the A-scalers to extend, AND increase the B-scale on a schedule that merges with A at a defined point in the future. I find it fascinating that so many of you seem to have turned your anger on the one group who's existence provides a living example of what the job should pay. I weep for the future of this airline, and it's pilots careers if so many of the junior officers seem to think that helping the management to bring down the top scale will somehow ensure the betterment of their own futures. Madness on a truly epic scale.
As a B-scaler, I will be voting NO. I will however INSIST on any further package offering both the A-scale extensions, and a FAIR deal for the B's.
Remember, it is not a 'zero-sum' game. You don't have to take from one group to give to another. The only people who want to see that happen is the management. Perhaps a few of you could explain why you seem to want to do managements dirty work for them?
In case most of your silly little minds haven't figure it out yet, the A scalers are not the problem...the company is the problem. They are rolling waist-deep in cash caused by record revenues and record profits. The only hope we as B-scalers have of ever seeing better pay and conditions is to make sure that such things continue to exist at the airline. Go ahead and bring down the A-scale. What will you be left with then? An airline that has now established an even LOWER top level of salary scales. In addition, you will then all become, by defualt, the 'new A-scale'. What do you think management will seek to do with your pay and benefits when you are now considered the 'top-scale'.
The company has more than enough money to both pay for the A-scalers to extend, AND increase the B-scale on a schedule that merges with A at a defined point in the future. I find it fascinating that so many of you seem to have turned your anger on the one group who's existence provides a living example of what the job should pay. I weep for the future of this airline, and it's pilots careers if so many of the junior officers seem to think that helping the management to bring down the top scale will somehow ensure the betterment of their own futures. Madness on a truly epic scale.
As a B-scaler, I will be voting NO. I will however INSIST on any further package offering both the A-scale extensions, and a FAIR deal for the B's.
Remember, it is not a 'zero-sum' game. You don't have to take from one group to give to another. The only people who want to see that happen is the management. Perhaps a few of you could explain why you seem to want to do managements dirty work for them?
words escape me.
99% of the A scalers accepted absolute crap deals to extend, now they are going to be given the world and a bit more.
Why do you think we are a little miffed.
idiot
electricjetjock: oh really? which FACTS have I got wrong my A scale friend?
99% of the A scalers accepted absolute crap deals to extend, now they are going to be given the world and a bit more.
Why do you think we are a little miffed.
idiot
electricjetjock: oh really? which FACTS have I got wrong my A scale friend?
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CoS 08
I would encourage any of you able to do so, to post your comments, for or against, on the AOA website under Members Area - Forums.
You can have your say, even while the GC is deciding whether or not to endorse Cos 08 and so put this agreement to the membership for a vote.
Not surprisingly, the AOA website is actually getting a few hits at the moment.
BScaler
You can have your say, even while the GC is deciding whether or not to endorse Cos 08 and so put this agreement to the membership for a vote.
Not surprisingly, the AOA website is actually getting a few hits at the moment.
BScaler
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The FACA is a NO go item for me but now with the news of "on shore" basing in North America being imminent in two years or less I am GONE!
Wonder what all those Canadians on a US base are going to do when they work for Cathay USA and they DON'T have a green card! Yikes!
Resume is being updated and I will be gone ASAP. It may take 3-6-9 or even 12 months but the decision is clear my future is NOT with CX.
See Ya CX!
Wonder what all those Canadians on a US base are going to do when they work for Cathay USA and they DON'T have a green card! Yikes!
Resume is being updated and I will be gone ASAP. It may take 3-6-9 or even 12 months but the decision is clear my future is NOT with CX.
See Ya CX!
Oh and guys when the A scalers bi
and moan about the pay cut they were forced into, ask them how much the Share Options they were given at $7.47 per share are worth now. I seem to recall that they only had to double in value to negate the pay cut?
Maybe a wise A scaler can enlighten us all?
and moan about the pay cut they were forced into, ask them how much the Share Options they were given at $7.47 per share are worth now. I seem to recall that they only had to double in value to negate the pay cut?Maybe a wise A scaler can enlighten us all?
Apple tree man......it appears you are an A scaler, congratulations you are one lucky sob.
Could you answer my last question about the share options please?
Also if you A scalers had anything decent about you then you'd refuse this outlandish offer, and accept B scales to extend. If you accept B scale pay in your contract then there is no legal problem is there?
Oh boo whoo, the company forced me to take A scales, what is a man to do?
Could you answer my last question about the share options please?
Also if you A scalers had anything decent about you then you'd refuse this outlandish offer, and accept B scales to extend. If you accept B scale pay in your contract then there is no legal problem is there?
Oh boo whoo, the company forced me to take A scales, what is a man to do?
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ACMS....as in most things, you are once again, WRONG. I am a lowly B-scaler, just like you. I have only been in the company a little over a year. Having previously worked for United, I am at a loss to understand your seemingly pathalogical desire to 'undo' the A-scalers. At United, we ALL took pleasure in seeing ANY increase to the top end of the scale. That was the ONLY guarantee that helped pull all the different pay rates in an upward direction. Why can't you see that the problem is with the management, and THEIR decision to refuse to provide us with a proper pay scale? That is where your anger should be directed. You seem to be a very envious and angry person...not a very healthy way to go through life.
you've been here for 1 year??????????????????????? oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh
After you've been here 14 years as a B scaler seeing the A scalers get given heaven and earth at our expense then you can comment.
Have you bothered to join the AOA? I guess you haven't
After you've been here 14 years as a B scaler seeing the A scalers get given heaven and earth at our expense then you can comment.
Have you bothered to join the AOA? I guess you haven't
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...I think the fact that you have been living in HK for 14 years explains why your life seems to revolve around envy and anger. Perhaps you need to pack up and move somewhere...? I worked at United for over a decade, so please don't try and suggest that I don't know what it's like to work in a difficult and unsettled environment. Regardless of the crap we put up with at United, most of us never lost sight of the fact that the managment were the ones who were responsible for the misery caused. The only sentiment I ever felt towards our senior 74 captains was the desire to one day attain that position...with the pay that went with it. What exactly do you aspire to? Oh, joined the AOA after 4 months in the company. Anything else?
ps. my understanding is that most A-scalers went on a base fairly early in their careers, thereby negating the provident fund. Then, in 99 they had their pay and benefits slashed arbitrarily (sign or be fired). I also understand that they have had their pay frozen for almost 10 years? From what I can see, our B-scale salary has had steady rises over that same period of time. Again, focus on the real problem. Your anger is blinding you to the fact that the managment is the place to focus your wrath...
ps. my understanding is that most A-scalers went on a base fairly early in their careers, thereby negating the provident fund. Then, in 99 they had their pay and benefits slashed arbitrarily (sign or be fired). I also understand that they have had their pay frozen for almost 10 years? From what I can see, our B-scale salary has had steady rises over that same period of time. Again, focus on the real problem. Your anger is blinding you to the fact that the managment is the place to focus your wrath...
A few A scalers did take a base and took out their P funds, but not more than 40% of them.
A scalers receive annual increments.
B scalers receive annual increments
A scalers were told sign or be fired but were given share options at $7.47, what's CX share price today? double that?
I have always said we should not cut the A scale wage, rather move up to them under the retirement age of 55. This is not going to happen ever, they came here knowing they would retire at 55. In the past 2 years a lot of them have accepted really bad conditions to stay, why? because it was the easy thing to do.
B scales desperately need a payrise, you know it as well as I. what they are offering is a slap on the face at the same time giving the A scalers a huge win for something they never expected to get in a million years, it's been given at YOUR expense. We B scalers are paying for it.
Why has it been put forward?
Well most of the GC are A scale and the GMA has extended on B scales and will reap a small fortune if this passes.
The A scalers did NOTHING to stop B scale in 1993 because they were told "we will not touch your A scale" Thanks fellas, now we take it up the a again.
A scalers receive annual increments.
B scalers receive annual increments
A scalers were told sign or be fired but were given share options at $7.47, what's CX share price today? double that?
I have always said we should not cut the A scale wage, rather move up to them under the retirement age of 55. This is not going to happen ever, they came here knowing they would retire at 55. In the past 2 years a lot of them have accepted really bad conditions to stay, why? because it was the easy thing to do.
B scales desperately need a payrise, you know it as well as I. what they are offering is a slap on the face at the same time giving the A scalers a huge win for something they never expected to get in a million years, it's been given at YOUR expense. We B scalers are paying for it.
Why has it been put forward?
Well most of the GC are A scale and the GMA has extended on B scales and will reap a small fortune if this passes.
The A scalers did NOTHING to stop B scale in 1993 because they were told "we will not touch your A scale" Thanks fellas, now we take it up the a
again.