C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
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Quick, where do I sign up...................big fat NO!!
Thanks for the 0% payrise. Thats the way to attract recruits in the US.
What a way to work out pay scales.....compare CX to the scales of a bunch of beaten down airlines in the US and then effectively punish us for their airlines financial problems. Nice one.
But wait, there's more. Not only can I start to enjoy all the pleasant aspects of freighter flying and rostering, have my command delayed AT LEAST 3 years, but then you want to cap my pay scale at SFO6. Oh, and no bypass pay under COS 08.......
Quick, where do I sign up!!
NO, NO, NO.
Thanks for the 0% payrise. Thats the way to attract recruits in the US.
What a way to work out pay scales.....compare CX to the scales of a bunch of beaten down airlines in the US and then effectively punish us for their airlines financial problems. Nice one.
But wait, there's more. Not only can I start to enjoy all the pleasant aspects of freighter flying and rostering, have my command delayed AT LEAST 3 years, but then you want to cap my pay scale at SFO6. Oh, and no bypass pay under COS 08.......
Quick, where do I sign up!!
NO, NO, NO.
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If you want to figure on loss of income due time to command extended figure on optomistically only a shade over $110,000 per month income lost for every month your career remains as f/o if you timeline it to age 65 for anyone joining cx at approx age 30.
It's not too bad but the soon to be 14 yrs time to command is getting high.
It's not too bad but the soon to be 14 yrs time to command is getting high.
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Ladies and gentledudes,
On behalf of the Air body, i want to take this oppurtunity to thank you for ensuring that my gonads are drawn through my body and out my mouth!!
This deal that is set before us, was never going to be a legitimate deal, not when our own "negotiating", i use that word very lightly, team went into the talks and asked for only a meesly 10% increase in pay. I say, and this is just my own humble, and young opinion, that we vote NO and that we vote for our AOA President, our Hitler wannabe OUT!!! Since his tenure we have bent over backwards and taken it up the tradesman's entry. I have faith in most of our GC however, crap runs downhill and Steve has some amazing crap!!!
Thank you all for your attention, i might sound humorous but this is serious stuff boys and girls, and the time is now for acting..
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO----->> to COs 08
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO----->> AOA President
Your esteemed and loyal subject,
On behalf of the Air body, i want to take this oppurtunity to thank you for ensuring that my gonads are drawn through my body and out my mouth!!
This deal that is set before us, was never going to be a legitimate deal, not when our own "negotiating", i use that word very lightly, team went into the talks and asked for only a meesly 10% increase in pay. I say, and this is just my own humble, and young opinion, that we vote NO and that we vote for our AOA President, our Hitler wannabe OUT!!! Since his tenure we have bent over backwards and taken it up the tradesman's entry. I have faith in most of our GC however, crap runs downhill and Steve has some amazing crap!!!
Thank you all for your attention, i might sound humorous but this is serious stuff boys and girls, and the time is now for acting..
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO----->> to COs 08
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO----->> AOA President
Your esteemed and loyal subject,
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Of course the other thing to remember for all the DEFOs (Freighter and Pax) is that if it now takes 12-13 years for command. The F/O pay scales dont go anywhere after 10years. Another 2-3 year saving for the company!!!
Next one is to gain max benefit in the short term, F/Os need to swap to COS08 and the unified pay scales The unified pay scales are actually less at the Yr5 and 6 SFO level than the COS99 ones. Yet another saving for the company.
Haven't done the figures but my bet would be that the savings from the COS08 SFO YR5 & 6 and the extra 2-3 years spent on the F/O pay scales would be cost neutral to the company and effectively not amount to a pay rise over the 12-13 yr period at all.
Only looked at the AUS base, sure to be different elsewhere.
Next one is to gain max benefit in the short term, F/Os need to swap to COS08 and the unified pay scales The unified pay scales are actually less at the Yr5 and 6 SFO level than the COS99 ones. Yet another saving for the company.
Haven't done the figures but my bet would be that the savings from the COS08 SFO YR5 & 6 and the extra 2-3 years spent on the F/O pay scales would be cost neutral to the company and effectively not amount to a pay rise over the 12-13 yr period at all.
Only looked at the AUS base, sure to be different elsewhere.
Perhaps a lot of you are too young to remember 2 significant events in the aviation industry in the 80's- 1 pilot related, 1 ATC related.
Management Rule 1. Nobody, but nobody, is indispensable.
XCX-SOHAPPY may be right.
Management Rule 1. Nobody, but nobody, is indispensable.
XCX-SOHAPPY may be right.
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COS 08 concerns
I have just read the recent COS proposal and am somewhat baffled as to what we actually negotiated, considering the current record profit! Credit, however, in someway shape or form should be given to the negotiation team as they really don’t have much support (55%) from the pilot body. In my mind, we should walk away from the table immediately and concentrate on membership recruitment, but I’m kind of hoping this issue could be the very thing to boost our numbers. Mmm! A number of issues here are blatantly obvious to us all, however here are my thoughts.
I immediately read 6% over 2 years. Let’s just think about that. No pay rise in 7 years, add these 2 and you get an exceptional 0.67% per year. Admittedly the 7 in that percentage makes it look better! Let me just state one thing. I came here as an expat! I didn’t come here to eventually retire in Hong Kong. I cannot use local inflation figures as I am an EXPAT! I need to use domicile figures. If the economy is booming in my domicile you can rest assured that CX is making cash in that market on currency exchange, of which can alleviate a warranted pay rise. I recall receiving a lot of information from the AOA pre talks, concerning domicile inflationary figures, currency movements, pays and lost compound interest we should be achieving. Needless to say, I thought there may have been a figure markedly different to what I read.
I see the COS 08 UFO starts at a pay some 25% lower than we have now, and only achieves current FO1 or better at year 5. Forget compound interest. Some S/O’s may say ‘so be it’. This is a major degradation from our current COS! We have the ability to and are currently recruiting Pax FO’s on FO1 – Day 1. This is a reshaped C scale!
Also, US FO pay will reach current pay over a 10 year period. Again, degradation! What about lost compound interest?
A scale to 65. Fair for A scale BUT, what happens to B scale? There are a number of issues. An immense delay to command for one! NC has worked these figures in a different post. Compensation is the key but bypass pay stays at C1, regardless of time and there are no C benefits (travel etc.). What about SO’s – No bypass pay with these A scale extensions?
Consider your 54! You weren’t going to extend, but hey, A scale continues. What are you going to think? - Cream! I’m thinking lets take a base with my seniority number and do up to the 10 years on the base. Do I need to ask when a relatively new Captain could get a base? NEVER!
Another issue is that FO’s are unable to take a base until SFO1! You can do the sums.
With all due respect to the Negotiating team, we must consider that our team are Pilots, NOT professional negotiators. I know these guys have done the IFALPA course but we need a professional or 2 to score points where none of us would have looked. The company bought Sten! We should do the same.
All I ask is those of you not in the union, please put aside your grievances, join (it’s cheap) and have a say. It seems bizarre, on an issue as important as this to leave it to the gods and not be able to vote one way or the other, and then blame the union for the outcome.
B Scaler. I would like to hear your views?
I immediately read 6% over 2 years. Let’s just think about that. No pay rise in 7 years, add these 2 and you get an exceptional 0.67% per year. Admittedly the 7 in that percentage makes it look better! Let me just state one thing. I came here as an expat! I didn’t come here to eventually retire in Hong Kong. I cannot use local inflation figures as I am an EXPAT! I need to use domicile figures. If the economy is booming in my domicile you can rest assured that CX is making cash in that market on currency exchange, of which can alleviate a warranted pay rise. I recall receiving a lot of information from the AOA pre talks, concerning domicile inflationary figures, currency movements, pays and lost compound interest we should be achieving. Needless to say, I thought there may have been a figure markedly different to what I read.
I see the COS 08 UFO starts at a pay some 25% lower than we have now, and only achieves current FO1 or better at year 5. Forget compound interest. Some S/O’s may say ‘so be it’. This is a major degradation from our current COS! We have the ability to and are currently recruiting Pax FO’s on FO1 – Day 1. This is a reshaped C scale!
Also, US FO pay will reach current pay over a 10 year period. Again, degradation! What about lost compound interest?
A scale to 65. Fair for A scale BUT, what happens to B scale? There are a number of issues. An immense delay to command for one! NC has worked these figures in a different post. Compensation is the key but bypass pay stays at C1, regardless of time and there are no C benefits (travel etc.). What about SO’s – No bypass pay with these A scale extensions?
Consider your 54! You weren’t going to extend, but hey, A scale continues. What are you going to think? - Cream! I’m thinking lets take a base with my seniority number and do up to the 10 years on the base. Do I need to ask when a relatively new Captain could get a base? NEVER!
Another issue is that FO’s are unable to take a base until SFO1! You can do the sums.
With all due respect to the Negotiating team, we must consider that our team are Pilots, NOT professional negotiators. I know these guys have done the IFALPA course but we need a professional or 2 to score points where none of us would have looked. The company bought Sten! We should do the same.
All I ask is those of you not in the union, please put aside your grievances, join (it’s cheap) and have a say. It seems bizarre, on an issue as important as this to leave it to the gods and not be able to vote one way or the other, and then blame the union for the outcome.
B Scaler. I would like to hear your views?
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UFO scales
The following is financial advice so blah blah blah your own accountant or financial adviser;-)
If you spent 10 years on pax B scales vs UFO scales, you will earn almost 10% more on US, Aus and UK bases. If you are a current employee and choose to take an FO basing, in FO seniority you can remain on B scales until UFO passes it. In that case if you switch in your 5th year you will earn 1% more than if you remained solely on the pax B scale.
NOTE! For US based guys, there are only 10 increments in UFO vs 14 for USAB pax. So in that case, staying on pax scale is the smart thing to do.
Once you nominate onto UFO, you can't come back to pax FO B scales - Command scales unaffected.
If you are an SO and bid for a pax basing out of seniority (ie if you are not the most senior SO) then you will automatically start on UFO.
Lets say you had a year to go till your FO upgrade. If you went on Aus basing now(1/1/08) your starting salary will be $92,664 (+HDP+15.5%). If you wait a year till your upgrade and then bid on the base in seniority as an FO, your starting salary (1/1/09) will be $126,024 (+HDP+15.5%). In the year you are waiting for upgrade you could reasonably assume to receive some bypass pay due to all the DEFOs. Currently about 20 DEFOs.
Million dollar question - will the FO base be available in a years time? Are you prepared to take a base and forever waive your right to bypass pay(which could possibly be over a million HKD lost)?
Take your time - think it through - I am happy to do 'what ifs' if you PM me - just don't expect a quick reply;-)
If you spent 10 years on pax B scales vs UFO scales, you will earn almost 10% more on US, Aus and UK bases. If you are a current employee and choose to take an FO basing, in FO seniority you can remain on B scales until UFO passes it. In that case if you switch in your 5th year you will earn 1% more than if you remained solely on the pax B scale.
NOTE! For US based guys, there are only 10 increments in UFO vs 14 for USAB pax. So in that case, staying on pax scale is the smart thing to do.
Once you nominate onto UFO, you can't come back to pax FO B scales - Command scales unaffected.
If you are an SO and bid for a pax basing out of seniority (ie if you are not the most senior SO) then you will automatically start on UFO.
Lets say you had a year to go till your FO upgrade. If you went on Aus basing now(1/1/08) your starting salary will be $92,664 (+HDP+15.5%). If you wait a year till your upgrade and then bid on the base in seniority as an FO, your starting salary (1/1/09) will be $126,024 (+HDP+15.5%). In the year you are waiting for upgrade you could reasonably assume to receive some bypass pay due to all the DEFOs. Currently about 20 DEFOs.
Million dollar question - will the FO base be available in a years time? Are you prepared to take a base and forever waive your right to bypass pay(which could possibly be over a million HKD lost)?
Take your time - think it through - I am happy to do 'what ifs' if you PM me - just don't expect a quick reply;-)
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I suspect the lack of money in the deal for most of us reflects the need for the company to keep bags of money in reserve for an increase in training captain pay. Most of the training captains I talk to have only gone back into or stayed in training to get an extension, so there could be a major exodus without an improved package.
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Ok, anyone talking of a pay RISE is fooling themselves! As Hoolio said in another thread.... we require a minimum of 20% just to break EVEN. So if you sign this deal, you ARE TAKING A HUGE PAY CUT.
I can't remember who it was who said about getting rid of Steve, but i couldn't agree more. He's so in Nick's pocket it's rediculous.
Tell me this though..... who's willing to STOP WORK.
I guarantee we'll see something good come on the table if CX shuts it's doors for a day or 2. Would be interesting to see how many would strike..... It's the only way in my opinion. Also, use your sick leave.... your entitled to it. No G day callouts etc.... F*** em
Just my 2 cents.....
I can't remember who it was who said about getting rid of Steve, but i couldn't agree more. He's so in Nick's pocket it's rediculous.
Tell me this though..... who's willing to STOP WORK.
I guarantee we'll see something good come on the table if CX shuts it's doors for a day or 2. Would be interesting to see how many would strike..... It's the only way in my opinion. Also, use your sick leave.... your entitled to it. No G day callouts etc.... F*** em
Just my 2 cents.....
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Cathay Pacific enjoys 54.7% increase in first-half profit
Thursday August 9, 2007
The addition of Dragonair accounts into Cathay Pacific's books, along with higher yields and robust demand, helped the Hong Kong-based airline group lift its profit attributed to shareholders for the six months ended June 30 by 54.7% to HK$2.58 billion ($329.57 million) from HK$1.67 billion in the year-ago semester.
Group turnover rose 27.9% to HK$34.63 billion and expenses climbed 25.2% to HK$26.29 billion. Operating profit was up 50.7% to HK$3.19 billion compared to HK$2.12 billion. Dragonair became a wholly owned subsidiary of the CX Group last fall (ATWOnline, Sept. 29, 2006).
"This is a strong result, with record figures posted despite the impact of the drop in cargo demand and the continued impact of high fuel prices. The Group is in good shape at the moment, and we are now seeing clear benefits resulting from the acquisition of Dragonair," Chairman Christopher Pratt said.
The two airlines carried a combined 11 million passengers during the semester, with a load factor of 78.1% and yields of HK$0.537. Cathay Pacific's load factor rose 0.5 point to 79.6% as passenger numbers climbed 4.1% to 8.5 million and yield increased 10.9% to HK$0.508, mainly as a result of "strong demand" from first and business class passengers.
CX's freight load factor fell 1.4 points to 66.3% and yield dropped 8.3% to HK$1.55. "We see the downturn in cargo as short term and remain confident in the future of Hong Kong's airfreight industry," Pratt said. The company has submitted a formal bid for the third cargo terminal at HKG, which Pratt said is "crucial to Hong Kong's future competitiveness as an airfreight hub."
CX plans to take delivery of its first five of 23 777-300ERs from September through December and plans to install its new long-haul product on 15 aircraft by year end. "The second half results should benefit from the additional capacity, although higher fuel prices would have a negative effect," Pratt said.
by Geoffrey Thomas
Thursday August 9, 2007
The addition of Dragonair accounts into Cathay Pacific's books, along with higher yields and robust demand, helped the Hong Kong-based airline group lift its profit attributed to shareholders for the six months ended June 30 by 54.7% to HK$2.58 billion ($329.57 million) from HK$1.67 billion in the year-ago semester.
Group turnover rose 27.9% to HK$34.63 billion and expenses climbed 25.2% to HK$26.29 billion. Operating profit was up 50.7% to HK$3.19 billion compared to HK$2.12 billion. Dragonair became a wholly owned subsidiary of the CX Group last fall (ATWOnline, Sept. 29, 2006).
"This is a strong result, with record figures posted despite the impact of the drop in cargo demand and the continued impact of high fuel prices. The Group is in good shape at the moment, and we are now seeing clear benefits resulting from the acquisition of Dragonair," Chairman Christopher Pratt said.
The two airlines carried a combined 11 million passengers during the semester, with a load factor of 78.1% and yields of HK$0.537. Cathay Pacific's load factor rose 0.5 point to 79.6% as passenger numbers climbed 4.1% to 8.5 million and yield increased 10.9% to HK$0.508, mainly as a result of "strong demand" from first and business class passengers.
CX's freight load factor fell 1.4 points to 66.3% and yield dropped 8.3% to HK$1.55. "We see the downturn in cargo as short term and remain confident in the future of Hong Kong's airfreight industry," Pratt said. The company has submitted a formal bid for the third cargo terminal at HKG, which Pratt said is "crucial to Hong Kong's future competitiveness as an airfreight hub."
CX plans to take delivery of its first five of 23 777-300ERs from September through December and plans to install its new long-haul product on 15 aircraft by year end. "The second half results should benefit from the additional capacity, although higher fuel prices would have a negative effect," Pratt said.
by Geoffrey Thomas
Last edited by XCX-SOHAPPY; 10th Aug 2007 at 00:49.
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Given that both the company and association updates have alluded to the fact that both COS 99 and COS 08 will be in effect...what is the vote for?! Is it just to choose which COS you would prefer to be on?!
NC: I would suggest the smart move for all B scale based FO's (not just USAB) would be to stay on the COS 99 scale indefinately, given that at SFO 6 the UFO scale is LESS and command may still be many years away??
NC: I would suggest the smart move for all B scale based FO's (not just USAB) would be to stay on the COS 99 scale indefinately, given that at SFO 6 the UFO scale is LESS and command may still be many years away??
FYI: I agree this initial "offer" is crap and we should all vote NO
However If I read the document correctly you will get a small payrise through an increase in HDP of 2%. The 2% increase in HDP describes the effect on Total pay. So it's 2% increase on the lot not just on HDP. So it's crap, but not 0%.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
However If I read the document correctly you will get a small payrise through an increase in HDP of 2%. The 2% increase in HDP describes the effect on Total pay. So it's 2% increase on the lot not just on HDP. So it's crap, but not 0%.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
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n the year you are waiting for upgrade you could reasonably assume to receive some bypass pay due to all the DEFOs.
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"Giggleswick
A Letter of Thanks to Our Esteemed Negotiating Team"
I note that there are still some slots open for you to join the next GC.
Looking forward to being on the receiving end of your greatness....
A Letter of Thanks to Our Esteemed Negotiating Team"
I note that there are still some slots open for you to join the next GC.
Looking forward to being on the receiving end of your greatness....
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Cant wait for this years comparison
Just a reminder from the 2006 CX annual results:
Nick Rhodes
Salary Bonus Benefits Retirement Bonus Housing '06 Total '05Total
1,500 1,112 437 270 654 1,684 5,289 5,657
And don't forget - management of all forms keep 10% of any monetary savings their own department makes... GMA included... So any cash value GMA can attribute to COS08 he keeps 10% at our expense.
Nick Rhodes
Salary Bonus Benefits Retirement Bonus Housing '06 Total '05Total
1,500 1,112 437 270 654 1,684 5,289 5,657
And don't forget - management of all forms keep 10% of any monetary savings their own department makes... GMA included... So any cash value GMA can attribute to COS08 he keeps 10% at our expense.
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Stinks like a freshly troden dogturd.The A-scalers must be laughing their heads off! In essence the AOA (I always referred to it as the "A-scale Officers Association") has negotiated a 30% payrise for them post 55,and, by default, a paycut for anyone hoping to be promoted. Astonishing!
SAY NO TO THIS STEAMING PILE.
SAY NO TO A-SCALE PAST 55 NO MATTER WHAT THE EVENTUAL PACKAGE.
SAY NO TO THIS STEAMING PILE.
SAY NO TO A-SCALE PAST 55 NO MATTER WHAT THE EVENTUAL PACKAGE.