C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: hong kong
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All the GC is doing is bringing the best deal they have been able to obtain thus far to the membership for voting. At this stage it appears they have not recommended either for or against. It is absurd to accuse the GC of not representing B scalers. The payrises for B scale are in the order of 15% for Capts and A scalers get no salary increase only HDP increases of 1.7%.
I understand the emotion of FO's and SO's regarding the impact of increased retirement age however, age 55 retirement is history because of existing and future anti discrimination laws. It is very topical throughout the world and age 65 is going to be implemented regardless of these negotiations. Northwest airlines just employed a 72 year old new joiner flight attendant as a result of US legislation.
I get the impression that Bushcat would like to sell A scalers down the drain to obtain a bigger payrise for B scalers, my thoughts are everybody should be given 20%. Let the process take its course and vote when you have a complete understanding of the package.
I understand the emotion of FO's and SO's regarding the impact of increased retirement age however, age 55 retirement is history because of existing and future anti discrimination laws. It is very topical throughout the world and age 65 is going to be implemented regardless of these negotiations. Northwest airlines just employed a 72 year old new joiner flight attendant as a result of US legislation.
I get the impression that Bushcat would like to sell A scalers down the drain to obtain a bigger payrise for B scalers, my thoughts are everybody should be given 20%. Let the process take its course and vote when you have a complete understanding of the package.
jed_thrust: A Scalers will get increase in their HDP, but it's 1.8% improvement on total pay + HDP isn't it? so say an A Scaler gets $140,000 per month basic and HDP of $5,000 he will get a rise of $2610per month in the first year.
Quote from the document: The increases to HDP above describe their effect on TOTAL PAY.
And they get to keep A scales after 55. A huge huge win for them while we get screwed.......
Also the wording on the Loss of Licence is a bit misleading in my opinion. At first glance I thought It meant we get 5 years LOL Payout. But they are increasing it to 60. They should have said "extended by 5 years" and not "increased by 5 years"
Quote from the document: The increases to HDP above describe their effect on TOTAL PAY.
And they get to keep A scales after 55. A huge huge win for them while we get screwed.......
Also the wording on the Loss of Licence is a bit misleading in my opinion. At first glance I thought It meant we get 5 years LOL Payout. But they are increasing it to 60. They should have said "extended by 5 years" and not "increased by 5 years"
As a B+ I will get a 5% pay cut at age 55 through the loss of my travel fund. ( i know nearly all B scalers don't get a Travel fund and that I am very lucky in that regard ) Another cut for me.
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To the not yet joined:
What has been offered is a pittance of a pay increase in the face of record profits.
What has been offered is a deal thats good for the old guys - cause the company needs some trainers to hang around in the face of expansion. And its good for the freighter guys - cause the company needs them to stop leaving for better pastures.
And its not much good for the rest. Especially not for anybody joining at the bottom as an SO.
As always I like my job but I fear for my future....
What has been offered is a pittance of a pay increase in the face of record profits.
What has been offered is a deal thats good for the old guys - cause the company needs some trainers to hang around in the face of expansion. And its good for the freighter guys - cause the company needs them to stop leaving for better pastures.
And its not much good for the rest. Especially not for anybody joining at the bottom as an SO.
As always I like my job but I fear for my future....
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FYI
Negotiations Update
Ladies and Gentlemen
Negotiations with the Company have concluded. The HKAOA Negotiating
team has put the proposal to the General Committee, which will now
decide whether to recommend the proposal to the membership.
Time line
The estimated time line for this process is as follows:
• GC advice communicated to the Membership by mid-August.
• Voting opens 12 September
• Voting closes 15 October
Contents of The Proposal
The Proposal covers 5 main elements, which are offered together as a
package. Assuming the GC endorses the Proposal, you will receive
detailed information on all aspects of what is a wide-ranging deal. What
follows is an outline of the essential elements, which are:
• Pay
• Retirement Age
• Direct Entrant First Officer Recruitment
• Closure of ASL
• Miscellaneous Items
Pay
This is a 2 year deal, commencing 1 Jan 2008. There are increases to:
• HDP for all scales,
• B Scales and
• Freighter Scales
The tables below depict the Pay offer. Figures are based on 84 credit hours per month. The ‘Total’ column is an estimate for the total increase over the life of the deal, based on 2007 salary + HDP at 84 Hrs.
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
B Scale
AUS
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /11.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
EUR
Scale 4.0% / 4.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /13.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
NZ
Scale 0% / 2.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /7.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
CAN
Scale 0% / 2.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /7.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
USAB
Scale 0% / 0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /5.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
HKG
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /11.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
*HKG CNs
As per HKG + change to increment gradient
/11.5% - 14.8%
*In addition to the increases outlined, the 19 HKG B Scale Command pay points will be adjusted so that each increment is 2%. This results in additional uplift ranging from 0% for HKG CN1 to 3.3% for HKG SCN17
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
Freighter
AUS
Scale 0% / 2.75%
HDP 2.6% / 2.3% /9.4%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.8%
EUR
Scale 4.0% / 4.0%
HDP 2.5% / 2.3% /14.6%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.8%
CAN
Scale 0% / 0%
HDP 2.3% / 2.3% /6.2%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.6%
USA
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.9% / 2.2% /12.8%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.7%
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
A Scale
AUS
HDP 1.8% / 1.7%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.4% /4.9%
EUR
HDP 1.7% / 1.8%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.7%
NZ
HDP 1.8% / 1.7%
PFund HDP -0% / 1.4% /4.9%
CAN
HDP 1.6% / 1.7%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.5%
HKG
HDP 1.7% / 1.9%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.8%
Changes to HDP
The increases to HDP above describe their effect on TOTAL pay. So, a 2% increase means a 2% improvement on the previous year’s Pay+HDP.
To illustrate this, changes to HDP and basic salary for a UK CN1 Freighter and Passenger are
shown below:
UK CN1 HDP @ 84 Hrs
Annual HDP and Basic Salary
2007 / 2008 / 2009 / ‘07- ‘09 Increase
Basic Pax £94,128 / £97,896 / £101,808 / £7,680
Basic Frtr £75,300 / £78,312 / £81,444 / £6,144
HDP (Pax + Frtr) £5,040 / £7,056 / £9,240 / £4,200
Other Important Notes on HDP Changes:
1. The figures above are based on 84 credit hours per month.
2. The 1st January 2009 HDP increase is “Tiered” and improvements to rates affect only credit hours worked beyond 56 hours, with hours worked in excess of 70 receiving the highest payments.
Changes to PFund Contributions - HDP
From 1st January 2009, HDP will be Provident Fundable. This change will not apply to Officers in CPALRS.
New CoS 08 Unified FO Scale
First Officers who elect to transfer to CoS 08, may move to the CoS 08 unified First Officers Scales at any time they wish. An example of a unified scale is given below.
GRAPH OMITTED - wouldn't cut & paste
FOs may wish to do this to achieve one of two things:
1. Improved Salary
2. Ability to remain flying freighters on base and move to ‘passenger pay’.
Note that an Officer switching to CoS 08 may remain on CoS ’99 salary scales and move to the unified scale at any time.
Retirement Age
CoS 08 has a normal Retirement Age of 65. All Officers will have the opportunity to switch to CoS 08 and work until 65.
However,
• All Officers may elect to remain on CoS ’99 with RA 55.
AND
• Junior Officers remaining on CoS ’99 will be eligible to receive Command bypass pay for passenger Captains working past 55.
Loss of licence in CoS 08 will be increased by 5 years, so that it will start to reduce (1:1) at age 58 and will be nil at age 60.
During the negotiations, the Company indicated that it will be going to “onshore” the basings companies. To a substantial degree this is being forced upon them by Revenue Departments and the applicability of local employment legislation, particularly age discrimination law. The Association will be fully involved in this process as it may have significant effects on based Officers’ contracts. We are already in the process of seeking legal advice regarding the onshoring of bases.
CoS 08 Terms and Conditions Post Working Beyond 55
Most terms and conditions will remain the same beyond 55
• Salary scales will be retained, i.e. an A scale Officer may remain on A scale.
• Expatriate benefits in HKG, such as Housing and Child Education Allowance, will be unchanged.
• CPALRS will not be available post 55. In place, Officers who were in CPALRS will receive PFund contributions into the applicable PFund, BBS or cash in lieu.
Green Page Benefits Post 55
• Green pages medical will be retained post 55.
• All other Green Page benefits, including Leave Passage Allowance (Travel Fund) will cease.
• Officers will transfer to the new travel scheme.
Command Bypass Pay
Command bypass pay, for Captains working beyond 55, will be available to any junior Officer remaining on CoS 99.
Officers on ‘Extensions’ Who Transfer to Cos 08
Officers on a freighter extension will complete a freighter commitment, with freighter service prior to 1 Jan 2008 counting towards that commitment. Transfer back to the passenger fleet will be in accordance with the Freighter Basings Policy. Officers who are held on the Freighter Aircraft beyond their commitment period will be eligible for Integration Deferment Pay. Upon completion of their Freighter commitment, such Officers will return to their original Salary Scale and accrued increment.
Officers on C&T extensions will revert to CoS 08 terms and conditions from 1 Jan 2008.
Direct Entrant Officer Recruitment
The general concept of last year’s DEFO proposal remains, in that this proposal allows FOs to be recruited directly to the passenger fleet on a unified First Officer scale.
However there are some crucial improvements.
• Officers receive 6 weeks leave.
• The current USAB command scale will be available to new joiners.
• The unified scale in the US has been increased by 6% so that FO earnings over 10 years are unchanged from the current typical progression.
• The unified scales includes 3 ‘freighter level’ pay points, followed by an intermediate pay point followed by 6 SFO pay points at the ‘passenger level’. An example is given above (GRAPH OMITTED) in the ‘Pay’ section. This improved profile now reflects what happens today, in that freighter Officers generally move to the passenger fleet after about 31/2 years.
• The Hong Kong scale remains unchanged.
The Permanent Basing Policy Agreement (PBPA) will be amended to require that all First Officers attain the rank of SFO1 and remain on base for at least 2 years before returning to HKG.
As a reminder, here are some DEFO features that remain.
DEFO Positions Offered to Current Officers First
DEFO positions will be offered to current Officers first through the PBPA. Freighter FOs and SOs may take these in seniority. If they have finished their freighter commitment (FFOs) or been assessed as suitable (SOs) they will go on current passenger pay. If not, they will go on CoS 08 and the unified First Officer Scales.
Transition
The transition lasts until the last current Officer has had a chance to become a passenger FO.
• During the transition, there will still be freighter only FOs. This is to allow ‘passenger’ DEFOs to be identified. These identified passenger DEFOs will trigger FO bypass pay for current SOs.
• Unlike the current system, the Company will pay FO bypass pay to un-assessed SOs.
• There will be no DEFO recruitment to HKG during the transition period.
FO Bypass Pay After the Transition
After the transition, FO bypass pay will be paid to SOs for all DEFOs. (Not just DEFOs recruited to the passenger fleet.) However, SOs in the future must have served 42 months to become eligible for FO bypass pay.
Closure of ASL
ASL will be wound up and so the FACA will cease to exist.
ASL crews will join the bottom of the Aircrew Seniority List in rank and on pay point. Note that the Captains involved will remain on the freighter Command pay scale and be restricted to freighter flying until they achieve passenger seniority as per the Freighter Basing Policy.
This will mean that the voluntary nature of freighter flying will cease. The following improvements to rostering have been secured:
1. 747F Classic crew will be credited at the rate of 1.14, as opposed to 1.07.
2. Compensation will be paid for loss of G-Days caused by down route disruption when operating Freighter aircraft.
Miscellaneous
Termination of Employment - Section 35.3 of CoS
This section of CoS allows for the termination of employment by either party giving 3 months’ notice or payment in lieu.
The Company will add agreed words in this section that require the Company to give reasons, in writing, for termination under this section and also provide the Officer access to the full appeals process set out in the D&G Procedure.
Scope
CoS is amended to scope all wide body aircraft including freighters. Previously only passenger aircraft were included.
Freighter Commands
The Company has committed to meet with the AOA to review the ongoing benefits of maintaining separate salary scales for Passenger and Freighter Captains. This will take place once this agreement has been ratified and the work associated with its implementation has been completed. Also, the Joint Rostering Committee will be tasked with reviewing credits for change of PX/PT and manning level provisions on the freighter.
Steve Turner
President
HKAOA
09 August 2007
Ladies and Gentlemen
Negotiations with the Company have concluded. The HKAOA Negotiating
team has put the proposal to the General Committee, which will now
decide whether to recommend the proposal to the membership.
Time line
The estimated time line for this process is as follows:
• GC advice communicated to the Membership by mid-August.
• Voting opens 12 September
• Voting closes 15 October
Contents of The Proposal
The Proposal covers 5 main elements, which are offered together as a
package. Assuming the GC endorses the Proposal, you will receive
detailed information on all aspects of what is a wide-ranging deal. What
follows is an outline of the essential elements, which are:
• Pay
• Retirement Age
• Direct Entrant First Officer Recruitment
• Closure of ASL
• Miscellaneous Items
Pay
This is a 2 year deal, commencing 1 Jan 2008. There are increases to:
• HDP for all scales,
• B Scales and
• Freighter Scales
The tables below depict the Pay offer. Figures are based on 84 credit hours per month. The ‘Total’ column is an estimate for the total increase over the life of the deal, based on 2007 salary + HDP at 84 Hrs.
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
B Scale
AUS
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /11.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
EUR
Scale 4.0% / 4.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /13.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
NZ
Scale 0% / 2.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /7.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
CAN
Scale 0% / 2.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /7.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
USAB
Scale 0% / 0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /5.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
HKG
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.0% / 2.0% /11.5%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.5%
*HKG CNs
As per HKG + change to increment gradient
/11.5% - 14.8%
*In addition to the increases outlined, the 19 HKG B Scale Command pay points will be adjusted so that each increment is 2%. This results in additional uplift ranging from 0% for HKG CN1 to 3.3% for HKG SCN17
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
Freighter
AUS
Scale 0% / 2.75%
HDP 2.6% / 2.3% /9.4%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.8%
EUR
Scale 4.0% / 4.0%
HDP 2.5% / 2.3% /14.6%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.8%
CAN
Scale 0% / 0%
HDP 2.3% / 2.3% /6.2%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.6%
USA
Scale 3.0% / 3.0%
HDP 2.9% / 2.2% /12.8%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.7%
1 Jan 08 / 1 Jan 09 / Total
A Scale
AUS
HDP 1.8% / 1.7%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.4% /4.9%
EUR
HDP 1.7% / 1.8%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.7%
NZ
HDP 1.8% / 1.7%
PFund HDP -0% / 1.4% /4.9%
CAN
HDP 1.6% / 1.7%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.5%
HKG
HDP 1.7% / 1.9%
PFund HDP 0% / 1.2% /4.8%
Changes to HDP
The increases to HDP above describe their effect on TOTAL pay. So, a 2% increase means a 2% improvement on the previous year’s Pay+HDP.
To illustrate this, changes to HDP and basic salary for a UK CN1 Freighter and Passenger are
shown below:
UK CN1 HDP @ 84 Hrs
Annual HDP and Basic Salary
2007 / 2008 / 2009 / ‘07- ‘09 Increase
Basic Pax £94,128 / £97,896 / £101,808 / £7,680
Basic Frtr £75,300 / £78,312 / £81,444 / £6,144
HDP (Pax + Frtr) £5,040 / £7,056 / £9,240 / £4,200
Other Important Notes on HDP Changes:
1. The figures above are based on 84 credit hours per month.
2. The 1st January 2009 HDP increase is “Tiered” and improvements to rates affect only credit hours worked beyond 56 hours, with hours worked in excess of 70 receiving the highest payments.
Changes to PFund Contributions - HDP
From 1st January 2009, HDP will be Provident Fundable. This change will not apply to Officers in CPALRS.
New CoS 08 Unified FO Scale
First Officers who elect to transfer to CoS 08, may move to the CoS 08 unified First Officers Scales at any time they wish. An example of a unified scale is given below.
GRAPH OMITTED - wouldn't cut & paste
1. Improved Salary
2. Ability to remain flying freighters on base and move to ‘passenger pay’.
Note that an Officer switching to CoS 08 may remain on CoS ’99 salary scales and move to the unified scale at any time.
Retirement Age
CoS 08 has a normal Retirement Age of 65. All Officers will have the opportunity to switch to CoS 08 and work until 65.
However,
• All Officers may elect to remain on CoS ’99 with RA 55.
AND
• Junior Officers remaining on CoS ’99 will be eligible to receive Command bypass pay for passenger Captains working past 55.
Loss of licence in CoS 08 will be increased by 5 years, so that it will start to reduce (1:1) at age 58 and will be nil at age 60.
During the negotiations, the Company indicated that it will be going to “onshore” the basings companies. To a substantial degree this is being forced upon them by Revenue Departments and the applicability of local employment legislation, particularly age discrimination law. The Association will be fully involved in this process as it may have significant effects on based Officers’ contracts. We are already in the process of seeking legal advice regarding the onshoring of bases.
CoS 08 Terms and Conditions Post Working Beyond 55
Most terms and conditions will remain the same beyond 55
• Salary scales will be retained, i.e. an A scale Officer may remain on A scale.
• Expatriate benefits in HKG, such as Housing and Child Education Allowance, will be unchanged.
• CPALRS will not be available post 55. In place, Officers who were in CPALRS will receive PFund contributions into the applicable PFund, BBS or cash in lieu.
Green Page Benefits Post 55
• Green pages medical will be retained post 55.
• All other Green Page benefits, including Leave Passage Allowance (Travel Fund) will cease.
• Officers will transfer to the new travel scheme.
Command Bypass Pay
Command bypass pay, for Captains working beyond 55, will be available to any junior Officer remaining on CoS 99.
Officers on ‘Extensions’ Who Transfer to Cos 08
Officers on a freighter extension will complete a freighter commitment, with freighter service prior to 1 Jan 2008 counting towards that commitment. Transfer back to the passenger fleet will be in accordance with the Freighter Basings Policy. Officers who are held on the Freighter Aircraft beyond their commitment period will be eligible for Integration Deferment Pay. Upon completion of their Freighter commitment, such Officers will return to their original Salary Scale and accrued increment.
Officers on C&T extensions will revert to CoS 08 terms and conditions from 1 Jan 2008.
Direct Entrant Officer Recruitment
The general concept of last year’s DEFO proposal remains, in that this proposal allows FOs to be recruited directly to the passenger fleet on a unified First Officer scale.
However there are some crucial improvements.
• Officers receive 6 weeks leave.
• The current USAB command scale will be available to new joiners.
• The unified scale in the US has been increased by 6% so that FO earnings over 10 years are unchanged from the current typical progression.
• The unified scales includes 3 ‘freighter level’ pay points, followed by an intermediate pay point followed by 6 SFO pay points at the ‘passenger level’. An example is given above (GRAPH OMITTED) in the ‘Pay’ section. This improved profile now reflects what happens today, in that freighter Officers generally move to the passenger fleet after about 31/2 years.
• The Hong Kong scale remains unchanged.
The Permanent Basing Policy Agreement (PBPA) will be amended to require that all First Officers attain the rank of SFO1 and remain on base for at least 2 years before returning to HKG.
As a reminder, here are some DEFO features that remain.
DEFO Positions Offered to Current Officers First
DEFO positions will be offered to current Officers first through the PBPA. Freighter FOs and SOs may take these in seniority. If they have finished their freighter commitment (FFOs) or been assessed as suitable (SOs) they will go on current passenger pay. If not, they will go on CoS 08 and the unified First Officer Scales.
Transition
The transition lasts until the last current Officer has had a chance to become a passenger FO.
• During the transition, there will still be freighter only FOs. This is to allow ‘passenger’ DEFOs to be identified. These identified passenger DEFOs will trigger FO bypass pay for current SOs.
• Unlike the current system, the Company will pay FO bypass pay to un-assessed SOs.
• There will be no DEFO recruitment to HKG during the transition period.
FO Bypass Pay After the Transition
After the transition, FO bypass pay will be paid to SOs for all DEFOs. (Not just DEFOs recruited to the passenger fleet.) However, SOs in the future must have served 42 months to become eligible for FO bypass pay.
Closure of ASL
ASL will be wound up and so the FACA will cease to exist.
ASL crews will join the bottom of the Aircrew Seniority List in rank and on pay point. Note that the Captains involved will remain on the freighter Command pay scale and be restricted to freighter flying until they achieve passenger seniority as per the Freighter Basing Policy.
This will mean that the voluntary nature of freighter flying will cease. The following improvements to rostering have been secured:
1. 747F Classic crew will be credited at the rate of 1.14, as opposed to 1.07.
2. Compensation will be paid for loss of G-Days caused by down route disruption when operating Freighter aircraft.
Miscellaneous
Termination of Employment - Section 35.3 of CoS
This section of CoS allows for the termination of employment by either party giving 3 months’ notice or payment in lieu.
The Company will add agreed words in this section that require the Company to give reasons, in writing, for termination under this section and also provide the Officer access to the full appeals process set out in the D&G Procedure.
Scope
CoS is amended to scope all wide body aircraft including freighters. Previously only passenger aircraft were included.
Freighter Commands
The Company has committed to meet with the AOA to review the ongoing benefits of maintaining separate salary scales for Passenger and Freighter Captains. This will take place once this agreement has been ratified and the work associated with its implementation has been completed. Also, the Joint Rostering Committee will be tasked with reviewing credits for change of PX/PT and manning level provisions on the freighter.
Steve Turner
President
HKAOA
09 August 2007
Join Date: Apr 2006
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From what I can gather there are no more that 50 CX pilots that post on Pprune. Of those 50, I suspect that many have 2-3 pseudynoms.
Pprune does not represent the majority of CX pilots and many that do not post will take the pay increase.
You either vote for it or we will implement it. You may as well get a little money out of it.
It's over and you lost. Capitulate now.
The Management
Pprune does not represent the majority of CX pilots and many that do not post will take the pay increase.
You either vote for it or we will implement it. You may as well get a little money out of it.
It's over and you lost. Capitulate now.
The Management
Join Date: Aug 2007
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You are probably right, vote for it or not, thats what you get. But on the up side, at least that crusty old A scale millionaire check captain will be in a good mood as he inserts the inevitable pineapple at your next sim/line check (for your next 10 years on SFO 6 pay)
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Hahahah... Is'nt it funny... To tell u the truth. It could actually have been worse. Congrats to the "old boys club" (A scalers) - they are the only winners in this one - and hey good for you/them.
The real loosers are all of the "not yet in command" (F/Os, S/Os). You can now sit back and see your lifetime salary reduced as a consequense of an extension until 65Y. Prob 3-6Y depending on the ways of the world.
That's life and life must go on.. Vote it down - yeah right - and then what..
The real loosers are all of the "not yet in command" (F/Os, S/Os). You can now sit back and see your lifetime salary reduced as a consequense of an extension until 65Y. Prob 3-6Y depending on the ways of the world.
That's life and life must go on.. Vote it down - yeah right - and then what..
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You either vote for it or we will implement it. You may as well get a little money out of it.
You are probably right about the number of posters tho'. It would be worthwhile seeing the silent majority climb out of their shells, for a change, and pass comment - good or bad.
We live in interesting times.
N
(My ONLY pseudonym)
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This is crap! As a North American I get a big fat 0% pay rise! Sure tell me I will get 2% from HDP but it's still 0% on the salary.
So why is it that everyone (base area) gets a different deal?
Haven't had a pay rise since 99 and now we have to wait until Jan 08 to get some crumbs?
Why do we have to wait until 15 October to discard this "turd"?
CX stop playing games...you know this will be voted down so just show us the real deal that you will force on us for the second vote!
So why is it that everyone (base area) gets a different deal?
Haven't had a pay rise since 99 and now we have to wait until Jan 08 to get some crumbs?
Why do we have to wait until 15 October to discard this "turd"?
CX stop playing games...you know this will be voted down so just show us the real deal that you will force on us for the second vote!
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Did some one say 15% payrise for B scale CNs? Really? Must have missed that over the last 2 months! I got 2x3% and 2x2%- as long as you work exactly 84 hours. Work 56 hours and it is closer to 2x3% and 1 x 1.3% (2nd HDP doesn't start till 57th hour). The deal sort of covers the period 1/1/08-31/12/09. Last payrise was for period 1/7/01-30/6/02. So in 7 1/2 years B scales would have received betwen 7.3% and 10% in total!
I will try to be dispassionate here as NC's ethos is 'just the facts m'am'.
This is the best deal that could be negotiated. What would you prefer - that we had walked away 6 weeks ago because the offer was no where near what we wanted/expected? Now you know the maximum of what was on offer, it is up to you to decide whether its worth accepting or not.
Need to make a couple of points clear. Regardless of any vote, RA65 is happening and DEFO is happening. What you are really voting on is the payrise and the removal of the FACA(Freighter Aircraft Crewing Agreement).
You can vote yes or no but RA65 will happen. Over a year ago the company was offering degraded B scale conditions for extension. Now they are offering degraded A scale. I leave it up to you to work out why.
There is some mystery to bypass pay. As I understand it, as long as you have not signed over to CoS08(ie. not gone on a base) you will be entitled to it. The most junior guys may get a year or so as an SO and 2years + as a FO. How it is actually determined vis a vis 3bar, 4 bar, backdated, assessed etc I am not sure. What I do know is that it does not 'pass down the line'. Under current bypass rules, if an FO defers command(eg on an Aus basing and waiting for an Aus CN basing slot) he does not get bypass. That bypass will then pass onto the next most senior FO. The bypass pay system with RA65 does not work like that. If the next FO has signed CoS08 then NO one gets the bypass pay. Clear as mud?
Predicting the effect of RA65 is like reading tea leaves. How many CNs stay and for how long? How much does the expansion rate change due to RA65?
My best guess - and it is a scientific guess - is that it will add about 3 years to a junior guy. I am assuming no Sep 11s, asian contagions or SARS. To be fair, those events will effect us either with or without RA65.
In summary - you are NOT voting for RA65 or DEFO. You are voting for the payrise and letting ASL into our company(about 39CNs and 8FOs). Letting ASL in negates the raison d'etre for the FACA. This means pax crew can man the freighter and work under the freighter rostering rules when operating the freighter. RA65 and DEFO will be included in the deal but please understand they are happening no matter what you vote.
The result of staying on CoS99 is that you cannot take a base as an FO. If you wished to be based, not only will you have to wait longer for your command due RA65, you will have no bypass pay recompense, unlike your hkg colleagues. Go on a base or stay on a base and you effectively make yourself forever ineligible to receive bypass pay - until someone reaches 65 anyway! The difference is likely to be over a $1million HKD for junior SOs. Over 400 of our 1050 FOs are currently based. I have no idea how many junior FOs and SOs planned to take a base but I would hazard a guess and say this arbitrary bypass interpretation affects approx 50% of FO/SOs???
Clear as dirt challenged water?
I will try to be dispassionate here as NC's ethos is 'just the facts m'am'.
This is the best deal that could be negotiated. What would you prefer - that we had walked away 6 weeks ago because the offer was no where near what we wanted/expected? Now you know the maximum of what was on offer, it is up to you to decide whether its worth accepting or not.
Need to make a couple of points clear. Regardless of any vote, RA65 is happening and DEFO is happening. What you are really voting on is the payrise and the removal of the FACA(Freighter Aircraft Crewing Agreement).
You can vote yes or no but RA65 will happen. Over a year ago the company was offering degraded B scale conditions for extension. Now they are offering degraded A scale. I leave it up to you to work out why.
There is some mystery to bypass pay. As I understand it, as long as you have not signed over to CoS08(ie. not gone on a base) you will be entitled to it. The most junior guys may get a year or so as an SO and 2years + as a FO. How it is actually determined vis a vis 3bar, 4 bar, backdated, assessed etc I am not sure. What I do know is that it does not 'pass down the line'. Under current bypass rules, if an FO defers command(eg on an Aus basing and waiting for an Aus CN basing slot) he does not get bypass. That bypass will then pass onto the next most senior FO. The bypass pay system with RA65 does not work like that. If the next FO has signed CoS08 then NO one gets the bypass pay. Clear as mud?
Predicting the effect of RA65 is like reading tea leaves. How many CNs stay and for how long? How much does the expansion rate change due to RA65?
My best guess - and it is a scientific guess - is that it will add about 3 years to a junior guy. I am assuming no Sep 11s, asian contagions or SARS. To be fair, those events will effect us either with or without RA65.
In summary - you are NOT voting for RA65 or DEFO. You are voting for the payrise and letting ASL into our company(about 39CNs and 8FOs). Letting ASL in negates the raison d'etre for the FACA. This means pax crew can man the freighter and work under the freighter rostering rules when operating the freighter. RA65 and DEFO will be included in the deal but please understand they are happening no matter what you vote.
The result of staying on CoS99 is that you cannot take a base as an FO. If you wished to be based, not only will you have to wait longer for your command due RA65, you will have no bypass pay recompense, unlike your hkg colleagues. Go on a base or stay on a base and you effectively make yourself forever ineligible to receive bypass pay - until someone reaches 65 anyway! The difference is likely to be over a $1million HKD for junior SOs. Over 400 of our 1050 FOs are currently based. I have no idea how many junior FOs and SOs planned to take a base but I would hazard a guess and say this arbitrary bypass interpretation affects approx 50% of FO/SOs???
Clear as dirt challenged water?
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Thanks for that NC!
Who in their right mind would want to effectively cancel the FACA? As for the 2% HDP I would get...I think CX knows where I would like to shove that!
Same old CX...nothing ever changes!
The greater the profit the greater the greed.
christn, yes it will as there won't be any agreement left!
Who in their right mind would want to effectively cancel the FACA? As for the 2% HDP I would get...I think CX knows where I would like to shove that!
Same old CX...nothing ever changes!
The greater the profit the greater the greed.
christn, yes it will as there won't be any agreement left!