C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bograt,
Well, I am for real. But if you don't think its a good idea I respect your opinion (you might want to try reciprocating perhaps). I am eager to hear what you are proposing to do, or should we just adopt the position?
Well, I am for real. But if you don't think its a good idea I respect your opinion (you might want to try reciprocating perhaps). I am eager to hear what you are proposing to do, or should we just adopt the position?
A_scalers
I absolutely love the way the 'package' argument gets diverted away from the real issue and into A-scale slagging.The infantile level of spelling and grammar displayed here also shows many of you up as being a bit thick.I digress.
From the day any of you who are not A-scale joined your package has gone only one way...up.I'd like to point out that the A-scale crews,what few remain,have been on the receiveing end of this company's tactics for nearly 20 years...and in that period their conditions have gone dramatically....down.
For those of you who chose to join CX at a time when we were toe to toe with the company.. thank you for undermining years of effort and millions of dollars spent defending a contract you would have inherited...a fight which cost the careers of 49 of our troops.When you slithered over during the hiring ban or took command slots on the freighter away from the original mainstream f/o's..I didn't hear any whingeing then.Hundreds of freighter inductees had a mighty impact on negotiations 10 years ago to everone's detriment...you gave the company 'cheap crewing space' which they used to eventually screw us all...as we who had seen it all before..knew only too well.
Take a look at a senior A-scale captain who's been here nearly 20 years and left seat for maybe 12-13.He makes $143,000/month...hardly excessive considering where he lives.In recent years his salary was cut 28% in one fell swoop,hours increased from 65 to 84,annual leave diminished by 25%,overtime pay slaughtered,etc etc...I actually think ALL captains based in Hong Kong should be on $143K and that B scale sucks...but, like we all did years ago, you accepted what the company offered at the time(30K/month for f/o's incidentally)...and don't give me any **** about it being much cheaper then...you wouldn't know.
In fact I think most of you on this forum know bugger all anyway...certainly none of the history of our union contributions supporting the 49-ers...millions...so piss off and slap yourselves on the back for taking a dump on them(after MG forced the issue through to CX's satisfaction by forcing a re-vote)THAT'S why so many senior guys left the union...in PURE DISGUST.
You make it sound like we're all flocking back to vote on the 65 issue when it's already going to happen...morons.Yes i'm leaping with joy at the fact the provident fund will be wiped out,we'll be forced onto a travel scheme like everything else that can be 'amended from time to time'...all for the 'privelege' of hanging around for another 10 years...like we want to anyway.You're bitching about 3 more years as f/o but in fact you'll get 10 more years as captain...and I can tell you that the selfish and self-centered a-scale crews you so stupidly slag off here spent years voting against b scales/freighter pay and millions contesting it...What makes you think any of us would re-join the union to vote this through...take the time to talk to some of the guys...we're all a big fat NO too...we still insist on fighting the company when they table a **** deal that affects everyone.
Obviously A-scale is a vast minority now so you'll be the masters of your own destinies...good luck..give 'em hell.....lets get everyone 'up where they belong' on a square deal.....That's my opinion....and i've been here long enough to have earned it!
From the day any of you who are not A-scale joined your package has gone only one way...up.I'd like to point out that the A-scale crews,what few remain,have been on the receiveing end of this company's tactics for nearly 20 years...and in that period their conditions have gone dramatically....down.
For those of you who chose to join CX at a time when we were toe to toe with the company.. thank you for undermining years of effort and millions of dollars spent defending a contract you would have inherited...a fight which cost the careers of 49 of our troops.When you slithered over during the hiring ban or took command slots on the freighter away from the original mainstream f/o's..I didn't hear any whingeing then.Hundreds of freighter inductees had a mighty impact on negotiations 10 years ago to everone's detriment...you gave the company 'cheap crewing space' which they used to eventually screw us all...as we who had seen it all before..knew only too well.
Take a look at a senior A-scale captain who's been here nearly 20 years and left seat for maybe 12-13.He makes $143,000/month...hardly excessive considering where he lives.In recent years his salary was cut 28% in one fell swoop,hours increased from 65 to 84,annual leave diminished by 25%,overtime pay slaughtered,etc etc...I actually think ALL captains based in Hong Kong should be on $143K and that B scale sucks...but, like we all did years ago, you accepted what the company offered at the time(30K/month for f/o's incidentally)...and don't give me any **** about it being much cheaper then...you wouldn't know.
In fact I think most of you on this forum know bugger all anyway...certainly none of the history of our union contributions supporting the 49-ers...millions...so piss off and slap yourselves on the back for taking a dump on them(after MG forced the issue through to CX's satisfaction by forcing a re-vote)THAT'S why so many senior guys left the union...in PURE DISGUST.
You make it sound like we're all flocking back to vote on the 65 issue when it's already going to happen...morons.Yes i'm leaping with joy at the fact the provident fund will be wiped out,we'll be forced onto a travel scheme like everything else that can be 'amended from time to time'...all for the 'privelege' of hanging around for another 10 years...like we want to anyway.You're bitching about 3 more years as f/o but in fact you'll get 10 more years as captain...and I can tell you that the selfish and self-centered a-scale crews you so stupidly slag off here spent years voting against b scales/freighter pay and millions contesting it...What makes you think any of us would re-join the union to vote this through...take the time to talk to some of the guys...we're all a big fat NO too...we still insist on fighting the company when they table a **** deal that affects everyone.
Obviously A-scale is a vast minority now so you'll be the masters of your own destinies...good luck..give 'em hell.....lets get everyone 'up where they belong' on a square deal.....That's my opinion....and i've been here long enough to have earned it!
Last edited by BlunderBus; 14th Aug 2007 at 03:14.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said that man. Kill the "A" scale and trust me, the target of our "managements" efforts will be whatever is perceived to be at the top of the pile.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My reply
ACMS and all those attacking the A scalers. You are doing yourself no favours.
You state that we the A scalers are getting a pay rise at your expense ? well 2% of HDP isn't exactly a pay rise is it ? and it certainly isn't at your expense
.
I wonder if you would be singing a different song if the A scalers got nothing and B scales received say 15% Would you reject the offer because the A scalers had received nothing . I won't hold my breath for an answer on that
The share option you so love shouting about. We had to pay tax on the difference between 7.47 and the vested option price. Many of us sold at $ 12- 14 and no it came nowhere close to compensating the loss of salary since 99 . So get off your soap box and stop complaining. Life isn't fair deal with it . I didn't like taking pay cuts or working harder for less money but I had 2 choices deal with it or leave . I chose to stay and deal with it. If you don't like your package you have the same 2 choices .
I came here when A scales were the only scale . I signed on expecting that my salary would keep pace with inflation. It hasn't . You knew the salary scale when you were offered the job and took it . Yes I'll grant you it is a lousy offer but be mad at those who made it , not those of us who have suffered nothing but pay cuts since
and by the way an extension on present salary is not a pay rise no matter which way you cut it
I have to say I am getting very sick and tired of your rants so if you want us to vote NO then stop attacking us . I would vote No to support the aircrew body against a bad deal, but from a purely personal perspective for me it is a no brainer . Annoy me enough with your attacks and I will vote for my own best benefit not yours.
Think about it before you lurch into your next rant
Thank you to Apple Tree Yard and west coast Capt for well balanced posts I wish there could be more .
You state that we the A scalers are getting a pay rise at your expense ? well 2% of HDP isn't exactly a pay rise is it ? and it certainly isn't at your expense
.
I wonder if you would be singing a different song if the A scalers got nothing and B scales received say 15% Would you reject the offer because the A scalers had received nothing . I won't hold my breath for an answer on that
The share option you so love shouting about. We had to pay tax on the difference between 7.47 and the vested option price. Many of us sold at $ 12- 14 and no it came nowhere close to compensating the loss of salary since 99 . So get off your soap box and stop complaining. Life isn't fair deal with it . I didn't like taking pay cuts or working harder for less money but I had 2 choices deal with it or leave . I chose to stay and deal with it. If you don't like your package you have the same 2 choices .
I came here when A scales were the only scale . I signed on expecting that my salary would keep pace with inflation. It hasn't . You knew the salary scale when you were offered the job and took it . Yes I'll grant you it is a lousy offer but be mad at those who made it , not those of us who have suffered nothing but pay cuts since
and by the way an extension on present salary is not a pay rise no matter which way you cut it
I have to say I am getting very sick and tired of your rants so if you want us to vote NO then stop attacking us . I would vote No to support the aircrew body against a bad deal, but from a purely personal perspective for me it is a no brainer . Annoy me enough with your attacks and I will vote for my own best benefit not yours.
Think about it before you lurch into your next rant
Thank you to Apple Tree Yard and west coast Capt for well balanced posts I wish there could be more .
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honkers
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it staggering how much in fighting there is regarding this offer, as expected, the company have split the workforce.
It's about time we all stood together and voted NO. The pilot shortage will work in our favour but let's just sit on our hands, vote no, then tackle the next offer etc.
Time is on our side gentlemen......
It's about time we all stood together and voted NO. The pilot shortage will work in our favour but let's just sit on our hands, vote no, then tackle the next offer etc.
Time is on our side gentlemen......
BlunderBus
I’m glad you agree that we should improve the conditions for everyone. But like I said to a “B” scaler before that was having a go at “A” scalers, lets vent all this energy in the right direction. United we stand, divided we fall.
By the way RA65 isn’t fate a comply if you don’t sign CoS08. If the HK government brings in age discrimination laws your contract is still valid for RA55. Only you can decide to work to 65. The company and the government can’t make you.
oriental flyer
I think ACMS has apologised.
So please lets just leave it there, OK.
I’m glad you agree that we should improve the conditions for everyone. But like I said to a “B” scaler before that was having a go at “A” scalers, lets vent all this energy in the right direction. United we stand, divided we fall.
By the way RA65 isn’t fate a comply if you don’t sign CoS08. If the HK government brings in age discrimination laws your contract is still valid for RA55. Only you can decide to work to 65. The company and the government can’t make you.
oriental flyer
I think ACMS has apologised.
Yes...I apologise to all the A scalers if I offended you.
Again & again & again!!!!
Oriental flyer: mate it's 2% on total pay and HDP, so you will get about $3,000 extra a month per CN.
BlunderBus: I make $106,000 per month, way inappropriate considering where I live.
In a nutshell: Our retirement age is 55. You are currently bypassing the AOA, making your own contracts with CX and accepting less than B scale to extend. ( and with no COS package )
Now the company comes up with a payrise for B scale of 11.5% over 2 years whilst telling us they will pay A scales to you blokes after 55, which means you get a 35% payrise after 55 over what you are accepting now.
You were always going to retire at 55, never a thought about it till a few years ago. And as I said you accepted the companies contract of less than B scale to extend so I my eyes you are now getting a 35% payrise after 55 years old.
That's fine ..........but where's my 35% payrise after 55?
BlunderBus: I make $106,000 per month, way inappropriate considering where I live.
In a nutshell: Our retirement age is 55. You are currently bypassing the AOA, making your own contracts with CX and accepting less than B scale to extend. ( and with no COS package )
Now the company comes up with a payrise for B scale of 11.5% over 2 years whilst telling us they will pay A scales to you blokes after 55, which means you get a 35% payrise after 55 over what you are accepting now.
You were always going to retire at 55, never a thought about it till a few years ago. And as I said you accepted the companies contract of less than B scale to extend so I my eyes you are now getting a 35% payrise after 55 years old.
That's fine ..........but where's my 35% payrise after 55?
Last edited by ACMS; 12th Aug 2007 at 16:47.
Blundebus:
I guess that in 1993 CX introducing B scales 30% less than you just slipped through to the keeper ey
.
Would you care to enlighten us as to what the Pilot body did back then? Because over the years I've been apologized to twice by A scalers that said "we should have done something"
we still insist on fighting the company when they table a **** deal that affects everyone.
.Would you care to enlighten us as to what the Pilot body did back then? Because over the years I've been apologized to twice by A scalers that said "we should have done something"
Last edited by ACMS; 12th Aug 2007 at 16:52.
ACMS,
"You joined on A scales KNOWING 55 was the end of the golden road, your P/ funds are more than ok by the time you reach 55, we all know they're worth about $800,000 per year of service to you, and you joined knowing 55 was the end for the P/fund.
So now you get another 10 magic years on that nice A scale of about $145,000 month, with a lot of COS add ons."
You're missing the point, we are not on "A-Scales" any more. After a 25% paycut in '99 and no pay rises since '94 we are not on what we joined on, we're A-minus at best. Hence when CX has to extend the retirement age some will take advantage of it to make up for what we lost when CX broke our contract. If I knew that I was going to have a 25% paycut and no payrise from '94 until the end of my career do you really think I would have left 15yrs seniority at a National Carrier to come to CX. You didn't join with any expectations other than payrises over the years and you've had very little of that so we're all in the same boat. Stop whinging at A-scalers and lets try and stand together for once.
"You joined on A scales KNOWING 55 was the end of the golden road, your P/ funds are more than ok by the time you reach 55, we all know they're worth about $800,000 per year of service to you, and you joined knowing 55 was the end for the P/fund.
So now you get another 10 magic years on that nice A scale of about $145,000 month, with a lot of COS add ons."
You're missing the point, we are not on "A-Scales" any more. After a 25% paycut in '99 and no pay rises since '94 we are not on what we joined on, we're A-minus at best. Hence when CX has to extend the retirement age some will take advantage of it to make up for what we lost when CX broke our contract. If I knew that I was going to have a 25% paycut and no payrise from '94 until the end of my career do you really think I would have left 15yrs seniority at a National Carrier to come to CX. You didn't join with any expectations other than payrises over the years and you've had very little of that so we're all in the same boat. Stop whinging at A-scalers and lets try and stand together for once.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: hONG kONG
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Over two hundred posts now!
Seems to me the only way forward is to unite and drive this forward for ......
ALL CREW'S BENEFITS
Not the manager's bonuses!
Let's stop infighting and present a unified front.
ALL CREW'S BENEFITS
Not the manager's bonuses!
Let's stop infighting and present a unified front.
Well Ed,
Your first two points are correct.
Your third point is wide of the mark. If the GC reject the COS you won't get a vote. I'd rather we all voted.
Not enough people stood for the GC (difficult to believe I know), despite all the posturing on PPRuNe, so unless the GC resigns you are stuck with them. I feel sure they would have been happy to stand down if some of these talented, incisive and fair individuals had stood.
Your first two points are correct.
Your third point is wide of the mark. If the GC reject the COS you won't get a vote. I'd rather we all voted.
Not enough people stood for the GC (difficult to believe I know), despite all the posturing on PPRuNe, so unless the GC resigns you are stuck with them. I feel sure they would have been happy to stand down if some of these talented, incisive and fair individuals had stood.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I came accross this a while back. I blieve it was on a United pilot board (Edited for our situation), but it is appropriate none the less;
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Cathay Pacific army. For years I was a loyal soldier in Swire's army. Now I fight my own war. I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder. They (CX) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes. They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CPA a thousand Kilos of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby,burn". I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book. I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up. I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort. I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do. I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold. I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. I used to call ATC for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (Oxy-morron).
With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CPA rich. Now it's to make CPA pay.
When they fire more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay. When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded or downtrodden - I will make them pay. When they force pilots, who have waited years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay. When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances. I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier
for CPA again.
Until then, I am an Army of One, And I'm not alone!!!!
Do you want to be an Army of one and send a message??
Fresshen up that resume. The company provides us with reference letters. Imagine if all the fleet offices received requests for reference letters from just about all pilots in the period of one month. That would send a strong message. These sort of things would surely rip the dollar sign reflections from their eyes and bring them back to reality.
So come on guys. Pardon the language, but it is time to let the sack hang.
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Cathay Pacific army. For years I was a loyal soldier in Swire's army. Now I fight my own war. I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder. They (CX) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes. They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CPA a thousand Kilos of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby,burn". I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book. I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up. I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort. I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do. I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold. I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. I used to call ATC for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (Oxy-morron).
With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CPA rich. Now it's to make CPA pay.
When they fire more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay. When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded or downtrodden - I will make them pay. When they force pilots, who have waited years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay. When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances. I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier
for CPA again.
Until then, I am an Army of One, And I'm not alone!!!!
Do you want to be an Army of one and send a message??
Fresshen up that resume. The company provides us with reference letters. Imagine if all the fleet offices received requests for reference letters from just about all pilots in the period of one month. That would send a strong message. These sort of things would surely rip the dollar sign reflections from their eyes and bring them back to reality.
So come on guys. Pardon the language, but it is time to let the sack hang.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Crew bunk
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why should we even entertain this further division of our payscales. It was bad enough having A,B, and F scales. Now we'd have Unified Scales to add to the already discriminatory present collection of scales. Management is obviously trying to further divide us. If they're really interested in a Unified Scale, then Unify the whole works. Every pilot -- One Scale!!!!
Extendees getting a bump from B to A, while USAB Unified is a payCUT from present USAB for FOs (US$20K in 4th year FO scale)??? First year European Freighter captain already makes US$30,000 more than an American doing the same job. Why did they get a larger (4%/4% versus 3%/3%) payraise???? The whole thing reaks of discrimination and is only going to make recruiting Americans more difficult than it already is for the Recruitment Team.
The company needs ALL pilots to grow! Now is the time to make the move to a Single Scale. Screw all the A vs. B crap! One Airline -- One Scale!!!! The ONLY way we'll beat this is to join together and vote down any attempts to further separate the ranks and keep us weak.
One Airline -- One Scale!!!!!!
Extendees getting a bump from B to A, while USAB Unified is a payCUT from present USAB for FOs (US$20K in 4th year FO scale)??? First year European Freighter captain already makes US$30,000 more than an American doing the same job. Why did they get a larger (4%/4% versus 3%/3%) payraise???? The whole thing reaks of discrimination and is only going to make recruiting Americans more difficult than it already is for the Recruitment Team.
The company needs ALL pilots to grow! Now is the time to make the move to a Single Scale. Screw all the A vs. B crap! One Airline -- One Scale!!!! The ONLY way we'll beat this is to join together and vote down any attempts to further separate the ranks and keep us weak.
One Airline -- One Scale!!!!!!
BlunderBus
I was polite and courteous to you. What a shame you couldn’t reciprocate the same manners. We all make spelling and grammar mistakes every now and then, especially when we are tired at 1:00am in the morning. This debate is about “Pay & Cos”. Let’s stick to it and not lose our focus.
I was polite and courteous to you. What a shame you couldn’t reciprocate the same manners. We all make spelling and grammar mistakes every now and then, especially when we are tired at 1:00am in the morning. This debate is about “Pay & Cos”. Let’s stick to it and not lose our focus.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: the fatigue curve
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If for one minute we could ignore how bad this offer is.
And if for no other reason this is one to vote NO.
We spent so long on other votes getting told we won't discuss pay in combination with the other issues. Fine, make them live up to their words, lets only talk about pay not all the other issues they have thrown in.
This debate is about “Pay & Cos”.
We spent so long on other votes getting told we won't discuss pay in combination with the other issues. Fine, make them live up to their words, lets only talk about pay not all the other issues they have thrown in.
Truckmasters
I agree but I actually think we can now use RA65 and unified DEFO to our advantage as a bargaining tool for a better pay offer i.e. a common pay scale for everyone. The company has shown its hand. None of us joined this company on whatever pay scale to see our pay diminish with time because of inflation and undervalued currencies or be forced to take significant pay cuts. The company needs every single one of us. Play our cards right and they will, mark my words, come back with a better offer.
I agree but I actually think we can now use RA65 and unified DEFO to our advantage as a bargaining tool for a better pay offer i.e. a common pay scale for everyone. The company has shown its hand. None of us joined this company on whatever pay scale to see our pay diminish with time because of inflation and undervalued currencies or be forced to take significant pay cuts. The company needs every single one of us. Play our cards right and they will, mark my words, come back with a better offer.